Wireless network at compitition.
 

Just a wireless network, no internet connection. Is that legal? I want to setup a database at our pit to have our scouts (other teams are welcome to get info/participate too) be in the stands and just fill out the info into the database.

We are going to the regional at Chesapeake. I know we can't have internet connection or run off of of the 900mhz radio channel. The network will be off of 802.11b (2.4ghz). I'm gonna go with this because of the supurior range, speed is a non issue.

So my question is: Is it legal to setup a regular wireless lan?

BTW I searched for this and came up with no definitive answer.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

I'm going to go with this is illegal, only because the site (Naval Academy, I believe?) may already have such a system in place, of course, unusable to you, but they won't want another "rouge" network popping up. Another problem could be that FIRST may be using a similar setup for field controls, you obviously don't want to mess with that.

In the case that you can use a WLAN, remember that there will be huge amounts of EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) due to robots and other fun tools in the pits/field. Also keep in mind that other people will be logging on in hopes of finding an internet connection, so keep your computers secure, no shared drives unless you absolutely must.

You best bet for finding out is simply calling up the regional director and asking, but I think they're slightly busy at this time of year ;-). I would go with the assumption that you can't use it, and ask on Thursday morning, and if they say yes, great, if not, well, using a pencil and paper never hurt anyone.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

i will tell you from past experience we've been told it is illegal if unsanctioned, though you will find them up in the competition....just wander around nationals with a pocket pc with a WiFi card....you will find a few networks.....

They stopped us from doing this in St. Louis (even though we were doing the same type of thing you are planning) this is the reason i believe it is illegal....

Now on the other hand if you clear this with FIRST and the event organizers like SOAP did last year, they had a network for public internet access (it was great sitting in the crowd on the internet) I believe it is fine.....

end result of all my talking is talk with FIRST and the event organizers and clear it with them (it will make life A LOT easier, trust me I know) rather than going there and getting shut down....

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

At the BAE Systems/Granite State Regional this past weekend, there were probably 3 or 4 team wireless networks running, FYI. :)

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

our mentor team 140 was running one for scouting... If you can get it working and get the system in place it works pretty well

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Does anyone know who the "FIRST Robotics" wireless network at the BAE regional belonged to? Was it used by FIRST themselves?

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Last I heard, It was legal as long as it was open to everyone and all of the info transmitted on it was avalible (give no one an advantage).

-Bill

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

As part of SOAP, we set up wireless access at multiple competitions. Clear it with FIRST and the site and you should be ok.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

We had a private wireless network up used for scouting software at the NJ Regional. Didn't have any problems from FIRST.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Thanks for the info guys, I'll try and get in contact with the regional directing people at Chesapeake to get clearance.

Just an update on my progress: I've already got the db setup done, and the data input form, working on search forms, so I should be done by midweek.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

We setup an adhoc network at the Portland Northwest Regional. I think it was secure but im not quite shure. It wasn't functional though, mostly just because we have some computer nerds on our team and they did it because they could :D

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

This is the scouting form, where data input happens:

Top half of page:


Bottom half of page:

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Search form by team number, the search forms are designed to present alot of information in a little space, condensed for easy viewing.
Data Input:


Top of page:


Repeating Sections, these show up for each database entry that has the inputed team number:

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

A bit of information on security and wireless networks. It doesn't exist. 802.11b/a/g are all really crappy for security. If you plan on using a WEP key then it is found out very easily using a program like AirSnort or even Ethereal with a plugin or two. I like the idea of setting up a wireless lan at regionals though. Wireless is extremely fun to play around with and I hope that someone will be kind enought to set one up at the SC regional. Anyway, just some info. on wireless network security. Also, if you find that a network is insecure then tell the admin of the network or fix the problem yourself and then tell the admin. Don't just leave it vulnerable.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

We used 802.11b on a 15" PB for our scouting. We did a test run at VCU and found it to work very well. We used FileMaker Pro and had it broadcasted. In Atlanta we hope to have it up so we can get iBooks to enter the info in. We didn't make the forms pretty, but they worked for me. We will probably block competers from out network by only allowing our iBooks to access the network, just for security reasons. We don't want someone to hack in and change team data. But if someone wants to see our database, I can show it to them.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

What is a 15" PB?

Why would I really care about the security of our network? Like I said, I plan to let anyone setup and use the databse. Sure some might try to screw with data (Gracious Professionalism hopefully will keep these to minimum), I could then disable editing/deleting and only allow me to do that from our host comp if this issues arrises.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

15" PB= 15 inch PowerBook G4

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

I asked the folks running the Buckeye Regional about wireless networks and here is the response I got. It settles it for me!!!

Subj: Re: Wireless PC Network
Date: 3/8/2004 11:34:20 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Carol A Galica <Carol.A.Galica@grc.nasa.gov>


Thomas,

I have had this request from another team and checked with FIRST. It is okay to use a wireless network for scouting purposes.



At 12:38 AM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:

What is the ruling for the Buckeye Regional regarding wireless PC networks? Our team (#63 The Red Barons) would like to use one for scouting purposes only. We would not have internet access available to us through this network.

The option to create a wireless PC network is fairly readily available to all teams. Most laptops now come with wireless capability built-in. All it takes is a wireless router widely available at places such as Best Buy and Circuit City for less than $100.

Thomas Albert
Mentor & Facilitator
Team #63 - The Red Barons

Carol A. Galica
Educational Technology Specialist InDyne, Inc.
Educational Programs Office
NASA Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field
21000 Brookpark Rd. M.S. 7-4
Cleveland, OH 44135
(216) 433-5112

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Cool, I was just about to email them...looks like I won't have to see how it says the guy checked with FIRST.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Wow. Looking really good. I noticed the pages are running locally. Are you going to transfer it to a server, or just run individual clients on laptops?

Here are some screenshots from Team RoboRaider's scouting application (WebObjects):









Then of course, the deployment...

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Wow..looks like something straight out of iTunes. Very nice looking.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Yeah the local is just temporary till I have all the forms completed. At the compitition I will have it running on a laptop as the server that will be wired up to the router, it will be there just to run this database. We have a few other laptops for scouting and my personal one handles our robot coding.

I'm still comtemplating how I want to set this up so to make it simple as possible for anyone (my team or other teams) that wants to join in. Probably just force a ip onto the server's laptop's mac address. Then distribute a sheet of paper with the main index page's address. I'll also have office web compenents on the server so anyone that is missing it can get it.

Urs looks great too. Can it handle multiple entries about 1 team?

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Not sure how to go about doing this... But you could set it up like a hotspot type situation. So people can log onto the wireless network, fire up their browser and automatically get directed to your server. You then could have a user registration page with some sort of confirmation at your end...

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

team 217 has used a wireless scouting network for the past 3 years, only ever having issues with SOAP at the midwest regional (issues with control of the airwaves between teams...)

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Just an update for you all:

I have the database done, and all the access and data manipulation forms done. Still have to set up the home page and I'm currently configging a server. I will have it set up so people can just get on my wireless network, type in the www.FIRSTlook.net and get to access the database. Easy eh?

Now if I only know how to do what the guy above said about hotspoting.Then people wouldn't even need to type the address.

btw don't try to access that site...it will be on my intranet only. I just set up the server as a DNS server too so people wouln't have to type an IP.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Just curious... What DNS and web server will you be running?

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

MS Stuff Strait thru, Windows Server 2k3, IIS6, SQL 2K sp3a.

This is the first time I have done any of this (access, database work, server setup and management) so I have hit a wall...

How do I enable editing of the sql database from my web form? That is my last problem. It took me all of yesterday to get the server setup from a clean install and all of the pages, tables and queries converted or rewrittin to work with an SQL database. The new entry button is greyed out and when I change values of the other entries, it says I'm not allowed.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Wait... I thought you did it in Access with Office web components originally. You switched to SQL Server?

SQL server is just a raw RDBMS, so you would need to write (I'm assuming) an ASP front end if you want to use IIS. I actually like to use Access to model any database before I make it production -- mostly since I dont have Visio Enterprise... So if you do need to switch to SQL Server, you're 99% there already with the design.

If you want to do something real fast, pick up a copy of Macromedia Dreamweaver. It has a lot of pre-coded database behaviors and methods to get off the ground quickly.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Well I had even more issues when I just tried to plop the access database onto to the webserver....how do I set a connectionstring to a web address?

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

You would need to make a DSN in your ODBC control panel. Otherwise you could do it DSN-less in ASP with the following VB code:

Dim Conn, path
path = "c:\inetpub\wwwroot\scouting.mdb"
Set Conn = Server.CreateObject("ADODB.Connection")
Conn.Open "PROVIDER=MICROSOFT.JET.OLEDB.4.0;DATA SOURCE=" & path

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Here's an idea too...not sure if you'll like it or not, but if you could get a database onto a palm pilot for people that have 'em (and a lot of people in first have 'em) then they could do a bit of scouting and sync in with the comp you've got hooked up to the internet. Just an idea.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Sry, can't help ya...having issues just getting this up and running. Earlier I managed to trick myself into believing it worked...I was fumbling with the files on all my comps, doufus me extracted it to the same location on all 3 comps....managed to make myself believe it was working, lol.

So anyone wanna lend a helping hand...I have spent all night looking at refs for the DNS-less things, and still haven't figured it out. So I'm gonna upload my files here...hope someone can help out. Download Here

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

I have the whole thing setup now...working for real this time...I didn't trick myself. :P

Tommorrow I'm going to take it to school for a more comprehensive test with more computers over a longer range. I even bought one of those range extending attennas.

So for those of you who will be at the chesapeake regional. If you are interested in participating in this scouting network, just come to our pit(#1463) and get the info. We probably will have flyers to pass out to let people how to connect and use it.

Quite simple actually. Join the wireless network called "FIRST" (subject to change if it clashes with the actual event one, assuming they have one, the alternate will be "FIRSTscouting". We are still trying to get official consent from the chesapeake people, it shouldn't be a problem...thru email contact they seem to think we want internet access, but now they want to see our equipment, but whatever, it shouldn't be a problem.). Then just open up your broswer and go to www.FIRSTlook.net and follow any instructions there.

Re: Wireless network at competition.
 

Just a note, you said you bought a wireless antenna for use with your WAP (I assume). The range problem still stands as before, though. You now receive data from the WAP at farther ranges but your wireless devices will still have a problem sending back to it. It's the same problem that satellites run into. Your best bet it to get a wireless repeater or something and move it into a central location. I guess this all depends on the venue. I'd imagine without an antenna on anything, you could get mediocre reception on a big gym. (This was true in the PBG regional.. I tried messing around with an ad-hoc network. Worst signal strength I saw was about 25%)

Also, some notes on wireless security. The simplest way to secure your WAP would be to enable MAC filtering (so that only the computers you add to the list can connect), disable SSID broadcasting (makes it so the router doesn't say "Hey! Look at me! I'm a WAP!" and I don't believe wireless stumbler programs will find it unless they can put your card into passive mode), enable WEP (this is definitly not super-secure, it will just keep passer-by's out but will still let l33t h4x0rs in with enough patience), and the NUMBER ONE bit of advice is to CHANGE THE PASSWORD. It's SICK how many people don't do this one simple thing. Someone could login to the router with the default u/p, upload 'new' (read: corrupted or bad) firmware. Boom. WAP = dead. Also, if you really want to get secure, I'd set up a VPN with IPSEC stuff. But I don't really want to get into that.. since that's pretty much overkill for a WAP at a FIRST competition. Also, be smart. Anything you transfer over a wireless network can be found by anyone with the means to intercept. Passwords, credit card numbers, super-secret super weapons whitepapers.. all insecure on a basic wireless network.

Also, the only networks I found at PBG was an ad-hoc network and a WEP-protected from the Red barons. (Not to mention the unencrypted network named 'CVSretail' on the way :D) I was surprised that Pitt didn't have a public wireless network. I had really wanted a way to send emails and such without paying $.25/min on the hotel computer thing.

Re: Wireless network at competition.
 

I'm surprised you didn't pick up the Carnegie Mellon wireless network. They have like a 5 mile radius outside campus covered ... or something obscene like that.

Re: Wireless network at competition.
 

Do I want to try and make it secure? I want this to be easily accessible for as many FIRSTers as possible.

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Probably not. Just make sure you change the admin login u/p. (I was just bored and felt like posting all that in case anyone wanted to set up a wap for their own personal use or something like that)

Re: Wireless network at compitition.
 

Our Wireless Network is up, tested, and ready! So , this is another announcement that we will be hosting this wireless network at the Chesapeake Regional!

At the regional we will have fliers to hand to interested teams, and will be wandering around with them too. The server will be named "FIRST" (or if that is unavailable for some reason, "FIRSTscouting") and should be up throughout the competition hours. Drop by our pit (#1463) to check out the status of the database and get information, or if you don't have wireless access and want to browse the server.