Re: An ethical question
 

A tight spot to be in for DEKA, yes, but I tend to agree with Al and Joe on this issue. It wouldn't bother me if DEKA sponsored a team at all. FIRST always needs more sponsors and a sponsor that already understands FIRST is a great one.

It does appear that there is an infraction of the stated rules, but it doesn't appear to violate the spirit of the rule in my humble opinion. Had this rookie team fully known that one rule (out of the whole manual and 14 updates) I'm sure they might have found a way to get the drill bit to the competition. In the end, there seems to be no unfair advantage created.

Re: An ethical question
 

The team going out to get the hole drilled does not bother me in the least. I know what the rules say but i would rather them do that then not play because there robot did not have a hole.

Re: An ethical question
 

I agree with the argument that they officially broke a rule but no one should nail them for it. I also would rather see everyone (not just rookies) running rather than sitting there because the rules do not allow them to fix their robot.

The fact that we all agree to ignore that the official rule was broken just supports the argument that this rule should be modified somehow.

Re: An ethical question
 

Good point, Raul.

I think a good modification of the rule would allow a team to do anything under the sun to REPAIR their robot. I think the rule should stand as it is currently written with regards to teams adding on to, or modifying their robots.

Re: An ethical question
 

You are very fortunate to have a mentor willing not only to spend his time, but his company's resources to help your team out. It seems to be an unfair advantage (seeing as all our team had left were hacksaws, a drill, a dremel, and assorted socket wrenches) but that's life! Some people get luckier than others. I would strongly advise that your team would try and follow the rules if at all possible :) but as long as you didnt strip someone from their righteous title, the functionality of your bot is most important in my book!

Re: An ethical question
 

I guess this is where the grace part of GP comes in

we know people are going to make mistakes, bend the rules here and there, and maybe even unknowing breaking them

grace is when someone does something wrong and you dont hold them to it, like when a ref makes a bad call, or a mentor breaks a rule with good intentions, or a spectator goes "boo!"

grace lets the bad vibes end with the first offense, and we dont need to set up a kangaroo court in the hallway of the arena to put the guilty on trial and condemmn them

much faster, kinder and more plesant to quietly smile and say nothing - than to let the lawyers take over the FIRST events

ANYTHING is better than calling in the lawyers ! :ahh:

Re: An ethical question
 

Actually the word I was thinking of is Forgiveness. A rule was broken albiet inadvertently. Apology has been made, the rest of us now Forgive the offender. End of controversy. Forgiveness is the result of Grace, which is where Gracious comes from.

If we just start winking at the rules, then the result is chaos. But if we enforce them with grace, mercy and forgiveness, the result is people want to obey the rules and feel bad when they don't for whatever reason. At least until they are forgiven and restored.

Though I wonder how willing other teams (including me) would be to forgive if they would have made it to the elimination rounds ...


Hmmm, Breaking Rules, Forgiveness, Retoration somehow those concepts seem real familiar? Where have I seen that before, a Best Seller perhaps?

Re: An ethical question
 

Dean's corporation has little link to FIRST other than the fact that Dean rules both.

The question you have to ask is: Are you recieving more help than any other team would ethically be allowed to? It sounds like not. There are teams sponsored by auto companies, and aircraft companies. Nobody looke down upon them, so I doubt anybody will look down on you.

Re: An ethical question
 

I'm glad to see that everyone seems to have ound it within them to forgive our team for our transgressions... I must really take the blame myself, I was the most involved in the rules and knowing them...

I think that the rule should not be modified, it makes sense. I mean If our team had been at any other regional we would have been stuck. A major goal of FIRST is to maintain an even playing field among all teams, and this rule is a part of that.

What I do think should change is the shop. Hardened Steel, while not very common on robots, isn't that uncommon. It doesnt take that many resources by FIRST to add a few drill bits to their shop. No team should need to go off site to fix a part.

On Thursday we only got 1 practice round because we were working, we spent ever second in between our rounds on Friday working, and that didnt help... we were immobile for two matches. We used our time after our Friday matches to fix the transmissions... (unknowningly against the rules). Don't think that since we broke a rule, that we had it any easier than you. This was only one fix to one problem we had with our robot.

Alot of teams seemed to struggle this year. Our mentor team 140 came in 43/51 after they had last minute design problems and had to revert to another arm the last week of the build season...

That was the reason I started this thread, because after seeing the amazing resource that our mentor had, but felt he could not let us use, I felt that I had to try to convince him that they should sponsor us. even if our team could spend one night a week in their workshop it would be an amazing resource and experience for the students...

Re: An ethical question
 

Since FIRST says you can't machine parts off site, then you CAN't machine parts off site. It doesn't matter whether DEKA did it or some small local machine shop.

We would have liked to machine a hook for our robot - but we didn't. We did what we could with the resources that we had.

If you can bend rules "a little," what are rules for? Who can draw the line? FIRST can, and they did - and that's why they prohibit teams from using a machine shop off-site at a regional.

Re: An ethical question
 

I, too, am an employee of DEKA (six-month intern/coop on the iBOT project). I am also a Mechanical Engineering student at Northestern University... so it was a personal choice of mine to keep helping out with 125, although they are an hour drive's away.

As Mike Dubriel just stated, our team had many problems throughout the BAE Regional. It's true that I have access DEKA and some of their machines, but that doesn't mean that I could volunteer their shops or support. There's a difference between a company who's sponsorship includes mentor help from their employees, and a person who decides to help out a nearby team on their own accord.

It's not that I care so much about the rule being broken, but it's the assumption that if a company simply has a nice machine shop that they should volunteer it to a team for a build season. What the kids must also learn about industry is that with time, the machines break down... and that cost needs to be subsidized by the company. Those expensive machines must be saved for precision parts that are essential to DEKA's success, and that letting the students use them could pose a great risk.

There is a possibility for the students on your team to tour DEKA's shop, but as for use... I think that teaming up with another local machine shop or high school shop may be more appropriate. The company needs to approve use of their machines to high school students because there is a lot of liability involved, don't assume it of an employee to provide that kind of service to a team without taking the proper/legal route.

Re: An ethical question
 

I see many points in this thread.. However, what many are forgetting is this team just needed one hole to be drilled. It wasn't like they machined an entire component. Heck, they could have drilled the hole at the regional's machine shop with the correct bits. Why should they be forced to sit immobile all day through friday and saturday just because they need ONE lousy hole drilled?

It appears that 1277 is only going to one regional- correct me if I am wrong. That would really stink to only go to one regional and be broken throughout the entire competition. That would feel like six weeks of work for nothing, but those guys came in 14th and suceeded big thanks to one tiny hole.

Re: An ethical question
 

If you can say "ok" to drilling one hole, what is stopping anyone from machining a part?

Re: An ethical question
 

you know, when you are first learning to work with a technology or develop a new skill, you are better off working with simple tools - hand tools are best

the materials you use have physical properties that you can only grasp when you acquire a feel for them - the strenght of alum or steel - how much does it bend before it deforms, how does it cut or file or drill

you cant get that by stuffing stock into an expensive machine and coming back a hour later to get your finished part.

Its interesting to watch new students in FIRST - kids who leave all the bolts loose cause they dont have a feel for when its torqued but not strained - kids who take 10 minutes to drill a 1/4 inch hole in a piece of alum, cause they are afraid to pull on the drill press handle too hard.

If you are going to be a mechanical engineer you have to develope an intuitive sense for the materials you will be using for your whole life - you can only get that by literally getting your hands on them, handling cutting filing drilling bending welding melting...

sometimes being restricted from the big expensive tools is the best thing in the world for you.

Re: An ethical question
 

Gracious professionalism

they are professional about it and only do what absolutely needs to be done to get back in the game

and we are gracious about it and dont sic the lawyers on them

:^)