Chief Delphi - An ethical question

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Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

- General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - An ethical question (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26511)

Guest

08-03-2004 23:22

Re: An ethical question

Yes, I agree that they only did what was absolutely neccessary. That was gracious.

But what about professional? If you're going to be professional, isn't following the rules part of that?

[ No, I am not implying that this team or mentors are cheating/lying. I'm just saying that FIRST drew the line - and everyone should have to (and want to) follow it. ]

KenWittlief

08-03-2004 23:59

Re: An ethical question

the gracious part is in your court- its necessary because we know we are all human and other people are going to make mistakes, screw up, get tired, take shortcuts

if we hold them to the letter of the law FIRST will turn into a nightmare

so instead we anticipate the ocassional mistakes and offenses of others

and WE are gracious and dont hold their feet to the fire when it happens.

Jack Jones

09-03-2004 02:19

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul

I agree with the argument that they officially broke a rule but no one should nail them for it. I also would rather see everyone (not just rookies) running rather than sitting there because the rules do not allow them to fix their robot.

The fact that we all agree to ignore that the official rule was broken just supports the argument that this rule should be modified somehow.

We agree 100%!! We'd like to see them allow teams to evolve their robot throughout the entire season by letting them fabricate parts any time after Kick-Off - not just during the six-week period or at the competition.

Crop-Circles

09-03-2004 05:10

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverStar

Yes, we should all follow the rules and 1277 did not. But if I'm not mistaken, they did not realize they were breaking any rules at the time. No one is saying that we should ignore the rules because we don't like them. We should, however, forgive mistakes. Besides, trying to enforce the rules now is pointless.

_GP_	09-03-2004 15:02

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erin Rapacki

I, too, am an employee of DEKA (six-month intern/coop on the iBOT project). I am also a Mechanical Engineering student at Northestern University... so it was a personal choice of mine to keep helping out with 125, although they are an hour drive's away.

As Mike Dubriel just stated, our team had many problems throughout the BAE Regional. It's true that I have access DEKA and some of their machines, but that doesn't mean that I could volunteer their shops or support. There's a difference between a company who's sponsorship includes mentor help from their employees, and a person who decides to help out a nearby team on their own accord.

It's not that I care so much about the rule being broken, but it's the assumption that if a company simply has a nice machine shop that they should volunteer it to a team for a build season. What the kids must also learn about industry is that with time, the machines break down... and that cost needs to be subsidized by the company. Those expensive machines must be saved for precision parts that are essential to DEKA's success, and that letting the students use them could pose a great risk.

There is a possibility for the students on your team to tour DEKA's shop, but as for use... I think that teaming up with another local machine shop or high school shop may be more appropriate. The company needs to approve use of their machines to high school students because there is a lot of liability involved, don't assume it of an employee to provide that kind of service to a team without taking the proper/legal route.

Unfortunately this post has drifted away from what I wanted it to be. I wanted to give background info on why I was there... in the process it was discovered that our team broke a rule (yet again.. we appologize we weren't aware at the time). People have focused on that.

My real question was whether it was right for a company that Kamen owns to sponsor a team. I'm not suggesting DEKA sponsor us, it would be great, but we live 45 minutes away so its not very practical... I just wanted to know what people thought about the idea of Dean's company sponsoring a team...

_GP_	09-03-2004 15:11

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverStar

[ No, I am not implying that this team or mentors are cheating/lying. I'm just saying that FIRST drew the line - and everyone should have to (and want to) follow it. ]

Our team has always tried to follow the rules, we just weren't aware of the one when we broke it (I am curious to actually see the rule.. I can't seem to find it in the manual). Our team wants to foollow the rules and has always tried to, with so few people on the team, I was one of two people who had read the entire manual... so if anyone's its my fault that this mistake took place...

_GP_	17-03-2004 21:08

Re: An ethical question

team update #15

scary to think my team might have been a cause for this

Jay H 237

17-03-2004 21:27

Re: An ethical question

A lot of it has to do with what's being discussed in this thread http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=26732&page=1

Erin Rapacki

17-03-2004 21:29

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by _GP_

scary to think my team might have been a cause for this

GP, I'm happy that you submitted this thread... don't feel at all regretful for asking these questions. It may seem by now that everybody is 'ganging up on you,' but don't worry about it... you're talking to a bunch of engineers (case & point: often what engineers think is constructive critisism... when written down, actually appears insulting because of their poor writing skills). But even so, all too often threads get off track and only the 'bad things' are highlighted. This is a problem all throughout CD, so don't feel like you're targeted. We still like ya and won't hold it against your team in the future :)

I'm happy for you that you got to see DEKA's shop. Did you see the two segways that are painted in camellion paint? ;)

Back in the day, it was decided to be policy that DEKA employees not be involved on FIRST teams. It was believed that DEKA people have insight into the game and could provide an unfair advantage... maybe that was true in the past, but it isn't true now. DEKA and FIRST are completely different. I even heard that for a new-hire at DEKA (who started early this year), Dean sent him away to help a FIRST team for those few weeks as an introduction.

Not every company in the world sponsors a FIRST team, but asking DEKA to help a specific team is once again, unrealistic. It's compared to... a mom picking her favorite child. Dean couldn't favor one team, every team is his 'baby.'

ByE

erin

Richard Wallace

17-03-2004 21:30

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by _GP_

team update #15

scary to think my team might have been a cause for this

FIRST may have been aware of your team's incident, but I know that they are aware of several others. I don't think your team should worry about having caused FIRST to issue TU15 -- there were several causes.

I think FIRST did the right thing by clarifying the intent of the rules and making it clear that teams should not bring a spare robot to an event, or use a fabrication facility that is not open to all teams during an event.

Frank(Aflak)

18-03-2004 14:57

Re: An ethical question

we had four engineers from Boeing. Were they right not to invite us to the fighter manufacturing plant to help us build our robot?

Of course not. He was an engineer sent to help you guys, he is NOT supposed to be a genie and grant your every whim.

Get over yourself. If you want some hardcore machining, find out how to do it yourself.

Eugenia Gabrielov

18-03-2004 15:00

Re: An ethical question

As a rookie student on a medium sized team that was a rookie only 5 or so years ago, I would like to throw in support for GP's question. To me it sounds like he's just trying to inspire his students, not question DEKA's advantages and or disadvantages in supporting a team. FIRST, in the one season I've been here, has made me go from wanted to focus on medicine to focusing on biomedical engineering (not that big of a jump, but still). I wouldn't have that inspiration if it wasn't for seeing my team at work and meeting the people who made it possible. Even if DEKA was another big name company with "access to FIRST", they are still here because their founder made the company, and he also made FIRST to inspire, not to document disadvantages and advantages between teams. I don't wish to offend anyone at all, this is just what I get out of GP's question. - Genia

Al Skierkiewicz

18-03-2004 15:23

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erin Rapacki

often what engineers think is constructive critisism... when written down, actually appears insulting because of their poor writing skills

Me? Us? You've cut me! I shall never write again!
I do agree with the rest of your statement. From our side it would be acceptable but from the other side it couldn't be possible.

Frank, a little too much caffeine?

Who knows, Deka could be inspired by one of you. But I do remember an incident(s) that really bothered me a few years back. My son participated in marching band (while on FIRST). Each year another team in the area held a marching band festival which they entered and always won. I thought that was bad form. Invite your friends to a party and win all the prizes.

GP I doubt that TU15 is even remotely aimed at you.

Andy Baker

18-03-2004 15:31

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Yep, I can verify this. There were a number of cases, mostly just were chalked up to poor communication and misunderstandings.

One team even got DQ'ed on Thursday, then re-instated on Friday. The negotiations on that discussion went way to the top. Good times!

Andy B.

Zil709

18-03-2004 19:11

Re: An ethical question

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverStar

Since FIRST says you can't machine parts off site, then you CAN't machine parts off site. It doesn't matter whether DEKA did it or some small local machine shop.

We would have liked to machine a hook for our robot - but we didn't. We did what we could with the resources that we had.

If you can bend rules "a little," what are rules for? Who can draw the line? FIRST can, and they did - and that's why they prohibit teams from using a machine shop off-site at a regional.

Now mind you, I'm not usually a big fan of rules. But in the case of FIRST, where the playing field is so uneven in terms of finances and equipment availability, I think the rules need to be in place.

Speaking as a member of a team working with nearly zero machining capability, ten students on the entire team (usually only five or so actually work), and a pit space that's a 6 x 12 closet in the corner of my school's assembly room, I understand what it means to have little resources. I think it's great that a team has the available resources like DEKA at their disposal, but at the same time, that resource is not evenly available to each team at the regional, so it's rather unfair to allow one team that advantage. What about out-of-state teams, who may have amazing sponsors, but no access due to distance? The playing field may not always be level, but I feel we shouldn't go machine ladders for those already on platforms to tower ever higher.

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