Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

How I interpret the rules in this case is that you could have something that stuck past the field border retracted before the pvc frame and then extend again to knock off the bonus ball.

The knocking the ball off without being inside the frame is where the 25 point penalty would apply. Very obvious.

Also, the first example of sticking an arm that was pushed back by the frame and then extended again to hit the bonus ball would be illegal. You can not react off of the field border or any other part of the field except the lip of the mobile goal and the hanging bar. I would say this would warrant a penalty of some sort but not the 25 pt penalty since you knock the ball within the frame. But I think it would merit a DQ.

Play within the framework of the game. There are many hardworking volunteers, cameramen and referees working on the sideline who won't be prepared for such a device and their safety is a sake.

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

Uh, the proof is in...

What's happened at the two weekends of regionals we've already had? Have "flapping" ball-knockers been penalized?

-Mr. Van
Coach, 599

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

I haven't seen one in the 3 1/2 regionals I've watched. At least not one that reacts off the playing field. But I believe they should be penalized if they do.

I don't think I've seen someone get the 25 point penalty for knocking ball off without being in the ball tee framework either.

Actually...to be truthful. I haven't seen a lot of things happen in autonomous mode.

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

comeon people, be serious!

there is a barrier around the playfield that keeps spectataors and the judges away, the only ones who stand close to the field are the refs

in the driver mode part of the game your robot CAN EXTEND out past the edge of the field as long as it doesnt touch the ground - you could have your ten foot arm hanging out OFF the field and no violation or penalty occurs unless you touch the floor

if this were a safety issue then as soon as your bot extended past the field border the refs would do what they do for ALL the safety issues - they would turn your bot off

or you would get -25 points as soon as a tiewrap broke the plane of the side of the field - this is absurd

the idea is you have to get the balls by reaching through the opening -watch the refs while the game is playing - they wont stand anywhere near the bots - they know better

ive seen the refs standing on the edge of the corral looking to see if a bot breaks the plane of the opening - I have never seen a ref sighting alone the edge of the playfield to see if a tiewrap breaks the plane of the field edge outside the release ball opening.

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

Ken,

I completely understand all of this. I'm only talking about the first example being illegal because the robot reacts off the playing field, the framework of the ball tee.

You can extend a reasonable amount outside the playing field without a problem at all, as long as you don't touch the carpet.

If the extension out of the field was unreasonable you would immediately be DQed for the safety of the judges, announcers, and, of course, VIPs.

And there are other people close to the playing field during match other than refs. This includes cameramen and Dean Kamen at St. Louis.

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

id be really surprized if they called you for 'reacting' off the field with a little stick on a spring

Ive always understood 'reacting' off the field to mean bracing yourself or pushing your ROBOT off the boarder - using the border or field componets to help your WHOLE bot move or hold position

not that you are not allowed to touch or feel or sense the edge of the field - that would also rule out contact switches that close when they touch the field edge

has any one used a stick or flapper like that? I would have to look at the drawings for the placement of the balls on the tee, I dont think the geometry is right - I think the balls are too far back and by the time the flapper was released by the PVC it would miss the ball.

no - I just checked the drawings - it would work very nicely - the ball is right up to the plane of the opening

darn - now I wish I had thought of that :^)

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

No, that is not the proof. The proof is what is written, just like you can't go 90 mph down the freeway just because you saw somebody else do it and they got away with it.

I have heard that these devices were fairly common in Portland and I saw at least one in AZ. They were not penalized. But this was apparently not the case at other regionals. So do we follow the two that allowed them or the ten that didn't have them?

As we can see from this discussion, there are various ways of interpreting the rule in question. The teams that built them did so in good faith that they had the right interpretation. They, and the refs at two regionals, might have been mistaken. If so let's get a correct interpretation and go on. If these teams have to take the possibility of a penalty into account when using these devices then so be it.

If they are to be allowed, then excuse me but I think I have to go down to the shop and dig out that fiberglass rod I saw last week. ;)

Let's just not sit around crying "Cheater" about an honest mistake.

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

Ah, Chris - I see your point. Of course, we should adhere to the rules as they are stated, but as they are stated, people seem to be confused. I just thought that two weeks of regional might shed some clairification on this. You mention that most regionals did not allow the "flapping ball-knockers", which suggests (merely suggests) a likely "right interpretation" of the rules.

No cries of "Cheater" here at all. Just seeking answers.

And CONGRATS to team 330 for their fantastic success in Phoenix!

-Mr. Van
Coach, 599

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

I took Chris post just the opposite - that he saw bots using them at two regionals with no penalites, and at the other ones nobody had them at all (ie. nobody else THOUGHT of the idea)

which is it Chris? is there any indication that anyone was penalized for using them?

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

We have whips that do that, and in all of our autonomous modes at VCU (90% of the matches, all the way through the finals), we did not get penalized.

From their video, it looks like MOE has one too. You can see it sticking out as they drive around.

Buzz, please give us your insight.
 

Paul & Buzz, congratulations on your win at VCU. Can you give us some insight into Buzz' discussions about the rules and how you came to your conclusions? Before posing the question to FIRST through the Q&A system, I'd like for the FIRST community to understand the legal/illegal logic.

Much respect,
Lucien

Re: Buzz, please give us your insight.
 

If you post the question to FIRST Q&A this late in the season, they will say that it is OK because they wouldn't want to be the ones to say, "Hey, our refs and students didn't understand this part of the rules and played 2 weeks of regionals without knowing it."

I just think it's obvious that by making a cage around the balls, FIRST wants you to only knock down the balls by going IN that cage through the front of it. Ken, I don't think it's that other teams didn't think of such a simple idea with a flapper (I know I did), it's that we realized the obvious - that it is illegal by the rules and by common sense. Then again, you were the one to argue that extending into the corral by an inch shouldn't be penalized ;)

IMHO
 

Hey Lucien - I think you should dig out that fiberglass rod, and also your check book - them 1 meg of Krispy Kremes is gonna be expensive.
I can't believe that touching the cage as part of triggering the ball is worthy of a DQ or 25 point penalty. I think "reaching around or over" means reaching around or over" Hitting the cage with your robot while attempting to trigger the balls is not a penalty unless the collision is violent enough to damage the field. I think that is a refs decision.

No 25 point penalty was called at PNW. Several robots had mechanisms that
touched the cage while trying to go for balls, none of them reached around or over. I think the head refs should take a look at this thread and express the final word.

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

Well it seems to me the only part of this is that is still unanswered is:

What constitutes reacting off the field?

We assumed that a flexible rod that is deflected by the frame around the 10 point balls would violate the rule about reacting off the field. If this is not the case then I think that FIRST needs to rewrite this rule to be more clear.

Re: We can extend beyond the playing field with our ball-knocker-offer???
 

From the competition manual, Section 4.4.2 "Safety":

<G04> If a ROBOT goes out-of-bounds (outside the playing field) to the point where it has to apply force to any out-of-bounds surface to rejoin play, its control system will be disabled and the ROBOT will be disabled. For purposes of this rule, the BONUS BALLS and BALL TEE are considered part of the playing field.

The term "reacting off the field" is not in the rule. No other rule I saw mentions "out-of-bounds". It's pretty clear to me that there's nothing wrong with brushing against any part of the field or its surroundings (as long as you don't go poking into the ball chute).