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College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
Fellow College Students,
For the longest time I've been searching for the right balance of FIRST and college life. I've seen many who burnt out because they were too involved in FIRST, and I've seen others who are just having their fun. Some believe they can start a team and run it when they enter college as a freshmen, but many examples are telling me that college students should avoid the responsibilities of having to manage an entire robotics team. So, in the hope to collect more data, I post this question to all you college student out there. How is your experience in FIRST? How involved are you in FIRST? How is FIRST affecting your school work? Do you honestly thing college students can handle the load of being a student, and being a team leader? These are just some questions I want to post to get this discussion started. As we go deeper and deeper into the discussion, I will ask more questions and see where they take us. Now, if you wish to remain nameless when replying to this thread, go ahead and send me a PM. I will post your responds for you. A Fellow College FIRST-a-holic, -Ken Leung |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
This year, which is my third year in college (out of 5), I founded a FIRST Robotics club at my school (Drexel). I organized getting others to mentor teams in the area; I couldn't mentor a team since I was in Turkey for two weeks during build season visiting my boyfriend and I also was assistant stage managing a show. I also volunteered at the Richmond Regional, and I will be volunteering at the Philly Regional. During the fall, I was judge at two FLL tournaments. I actually wish I was a little more involved.
It's actually not bad for me to be heavily involved in FIRST, because I'm on co-op September to March, prime pre-season and build season time :] Hope this helps answer your questions, Ken. |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
I decided to take my first year of college at the Purdue University programs here in Kokomo (its cheap :)) and that gave me the opportunity to come back and be a mentor with the Technokats, the team that I have spent my previous 4 years of high school with. Really I just showed up when I could and basically made college more of a priority. Although FIRST isnt something I could just stop doing after sacrificing a lot to do it the last 4 years. I guess my goal this year was not really to be a factor on robot design and building, but to get the newbies and the kids that are getting to the point of taking leadership positions more excited about FIRST or help bring them in. I've been very impressed with the students that have taken over leadership positions who were just little freshmen when I was at the point where they are now. Also freshmen involvement has been VERY high compared to previous years. That picture that was posted earlier shows that. The kid up in the air is a freshman and the kid that sacrificed his body pretty much is a freshman also. Im really thrilled to see these young ones getting excited about FIRST so quickly. So I'll stop rambling now and come to the conclusion that even though I wasn't there that often, I made my presence felt and contributed to helping the new kids gain acceptance and new found interest.
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Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
I guess I give it my best shot Ken.
So far I've have mentored my hometown team on the weekends. Home is two hours away or I'd help more often. This has probably been good for my schoolwork because I would be there to often if I was closer, and had a car. I probably averaged 8 hours of work a day when I was home. I'm at Kansas State and the closest other team is at least an hour and a half away so I have no one close to mentor. I thought about starting a team here but decided to at least wait a year and probably should wait until I have a vehicle. Kansas City will be having a regional next year so I am hoping to be able to help there. And it will be easier to create more teams in our state. I am setting a booth about FIRST up for my colleges open house where hopefully I will be able to spark some interest. As far as competition this year I have watched 3 1/2 competitions. VCU, Portland, and part of UCF webcast and then went to help teammates scout at SLR. I won't be able to travel with my team to LSR, open house weekend and calc test, but will be a championship to at the least cheer my team on. A team could be led by a college student but it would be very hard. I think it is nice to have teachers and engineers leading the team for certain reasons. The studies part wouldn't be a problem. It would just take some self-discipline and a little caffeine. Teachers and professionals are way better with dealing with school administration, securing funding, and a lot of the important parts of starting and maintaining the team. Right now I'm addicted and excited. Between watching the finals from the different regionals this years game is awesome and I really can't wait to go to Atlanta. I would like to get more into the volunteering and mentoring aspect of FIRST but I haven't found a good way to tackle it. Between time, nearness of events, having no car, and serious lack of funding I've had trouble this year. Any insight on this would be great. How did you start volunteering and mentoring once becoming a college student? Especially for people that aren't close to an event, SLR is the closest at seven hours away. |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
I am a college freshman this year, and I started a rookie team. Kind of. We didn't get our registration fee, and the feeling of failure constantly nags at me. We didn't give up as a team. We decided to use this year as a practice year. We are building a robot, and want to hold a competition in the fall. But what if i can't manage that either. I'm the only adult our team has, so it's up to me to do everything. I love FIRST. I was only on my high school team for a year (didn't know about it until then), but FIRST has been the best experience of my life. I know being a team leader affects my school work, but not always in a negative way. If fact most of the time it's "I have to do my work, because then I can play with robots." It's really frustrating sometimes being the only adult. Because everything that doesnt happen (like not getting a registration fee) is my fault. Sometimes I want to go shout over the treetops to all the sponsors that think I'm going to give up at this. So what if nobody around here has ever heard of robotics. Wait till I'm through with them. I think being able to handle everything depends mostly on the person, and other things affecting them, like stuff at home.
I'm sorry if that was a somewhat scatterbrained response. The lack of money around here is rather frustrating. I'll try and clarify later, it's just there's so much I want to say on this topic that my brain keeps jumping all over. Allison |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
I've been a college student for about 12 years (along with working at Xerox). It gets a bit stressful during the season. There never seems to be enough time but I just cannot think of doing without my FIRST fix.
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Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
I am actually on another side of the college student involvement in FIRST. I choose to stay away from FIRST, and try to concentrate on the school work and make that my top priority. I attended my hometown teams kick-off event, and went to a few hours of a build session. I even had a "FIRST fix" by going to a team 134 work session. I ecstatically look forward to the Pennsylvania Robot Challenge, and hopefully at least one more 2004 competition. However, I have noticed now that Regionals have begun, I regret my actions. I sit in front of my computer non-stop watching VCU, Portland, and UCF; in addition to being on the phone continuously receiving updates from BAE and Pittsburgh. I deeply miss the involvement in the build season and the competition experience. However, I have yet to figure out how I will balance college and FIRST.
...... I apologize for the rambling. |
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When I came to Purdue I faced a rather rigorous application and interview process which allowed me to become a technical advisor. It was 461's 3rd year in existence, with very few returning undergraduates around to be mentors. I struggled as an advisor significantly due to my lack of design experience, but nevertheless came to discover that my true engineering passion didn't lie in electrical, but rather mechanical engineering. However, I quickly realized that the time commitment, the lack of appreciation by those I was working with, gave me little choice but to choose to not return the next year, which I planned on doing descretely. But dagnubbit, somehow those high school students found out, and IM's starting pouring in: "Matt, you can't leave!! You're such a good advisor!" "Matt, we need your help next year, you can't leave us!" "Matt, I know you're leaving, but I just want to say that you made a really big impact on my life." How do you walk away from that? The short answer is that you don't, and I've been significantly involved ever since. I wasn't "underappreciated"... high school students (myself included at that age) do really appreciate what mentors do... they just don't realize how much it means to hear it. As for how involved I am... the answer is "perhaps is a bit too much." Last year, we started to do a lot of differently, including:
This year I worked along side some other talented college mentors including Raj Daftuar and Carl Agnew to start a lot of other initiatives, including:
As a whole at Purdue, there's a low return rate for our technical advisors. The amount of time commitment that you need to have for academic success and the amount of time that you need to dedicate to be a good FIRST advisor is about the same. Significant sleep loss occurs, and grades do take a hit. I would not be able to commit at the level I am at right now had I not recieved a lot of college credit from advanced placement exams and the foreign language department here at Purdue. Essentially, most of the advisors and FIRST involved college students at Purdue that I know are spending at least an extra semester at Purdue, which may or may not be directly related due to their involvement in FIRST here on campus. Being a college mentor on a college run team is a very serious commitment. Right now, we have over 40 college students committed to make this happen. We started out under the wing of another large student organization at Purdue, which is the way that I'd suggest others go about it. Starting a team on your own is very difficult. Shannon Schnepp wrote a very good paper on how Purdue started their team 5 years ago. I suggest you read it so that you'll have a good understanding of what's needed to accompish your goal sucessfully. Matt |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
When I was a senior in High School, I knew that I wanted to continue with FIRST... so I picked a school that would work around my FIRST schedule:
Year one: classes from September - June -Ok, taking classes and doing FIRST is a major pain in the @s5... kudos to you guys who do that successfully -I was on a new team so I took the time to 'learn their ways,' I purposely shy'd away from having any definate responsibilities and only promised them a Chairman's Award entry -I concieved the idea for the Beantown Blitz last march while staring at a wall during Physics class, I proceded to ask the Dean of Engineering if he'd be interested... he said 'yes,' it all started from there (most of you know the rest of the story ;) ) Year two, three, & four: work jan-june, class july - december -This is perfect; for build, competition, and off-season event planning time... I'm working (granted, working is still tough... but at least you know it's only a '40 hour week' and you won't have any surpise term papers to finish. Life is a bit more predictible) -I go nuts about FIRST while I'm working, and I concentrate on School when the FIRST stuff is a bit at a lull -While I'm in class though, I organize pre-season and do other 'team leader' type stuff... I'm in the process of making that a Work-Study position for a few hours of each week. This will help with time-management a little more. Year five, class august - april -I don't know how I'll feel about things my Senior year, but I'll probably have a lighter team responsibility and pay attention to classes. I do have the rest of my life to enjoy FIRST, but I have to make school a priority. So all in all, I'm not a typical college student. I'm working at DEKA on the iBOT right now as a intern, and working there... haha, it feels like your workin on a FIRST Robotics Team all the time. They are truely a unique company. Ok, back to living the dream. ByE erin |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
This is my first year in University (University of Waterloo, Canada). My involvement with FIRST went up and down. I started out helping to create a Kickoff game with other students at the University (all FIRST alumni). But, school kicked in near the end of it, and I started to drift a little back. Then I hit my work term (Jan - April) and decided to help out the rookie local team (only one in the area). But I joined about a week and half into the build. I thought since I was on work term I would have plenty of time. It was good for days that they worked late, and weekends, but other then that it was a pain. Because I get off work at 5 I have to get to their build site (walking) and also eat dinner. And the students did a lot of work during their lunch time, which I couldn't make.
So, it wasn't as much time as I would have hoped. Hopefully next year when I am in school during the same term, I will be able to get out more often. I can choose to go to class, but not work. Chris |
How is your experience in FIRST?
I had a bit of a non standard time.
I swiched from Herndon to a private, distance learning program my junior year of high school. Here in Fairfax County, if you are not a student then you arn't suppost to participate on the sports teams or extracurricular activites. I was fortunate in that our lead teacher was willing to let me continue on the team. It did, however, prevent me from going to Nationals my senior year (2002). I graduated the spring of 2002, and just worked retail and had a good time for a year. I purposfully did not participate with my team in 2003, to avoid issues with friends still on the team and such. I met up with a rookie team, 1123 and went to a few meetings, then I broke my car (for 7 months) and was unable to get to their build site to help. It was durring this hiatus from active participation with a team that I started chating with other FIRST-a-holics online and became good friends with some of them. So much that I was able to fly out to San Jose and stay with the Golds and volunteer at the Sillicon Valley Regional. I was so not ready to go home that I asked my grandparents if I and some friends could stay with them at their house in LA for the LA regional. They agreed, and 5 or so of us went down to LA and volunteered again. That volunteering experiance was a fundamentaly diffrent experiance then the one I got while as a student. This year, I started classes in Emergency Medicene at NVCC and rejoined 116 as an adult mentor. In the fall, we've always done a mini competition, and I had a group of kids. The type of work I did was rather different. I'm only two years out of high school, but my viewpoint has changed dramaticly. I was doing alot of project management. I don't have the knowledge to do the detailed engineering equaitions, but I have the general knowledge to get a rough estimate in my head. So I was guidling these young adults (alot like me) through the engineering design process, yet I've never had a formal class in it. I think I did an ok job, because my group was about as far along as anyone else was when we ran out of time and had to move on. This spring I was working 24 hours a week, taking 13 credits at NVCC, and going to most of the meetings. I had class durring times that the team met, but I went to my classes instead. As it got near the end of the build season, I began to better understand the time commitment that Dave and Mr Tripp and Jack and Heidi and Ms Bobzine made to be there all the time. It was also diffrent in that it was a part of my life, not what my life revolved around. My experiance in FIRST in college has been overwhelmingly positive. I think I've also been able to pass on some things I've learned, at least in the shop. (I love making things :D) I may go away to nursing school this fall, but thats still a maybe. Either way, FIRST will be a part of it, but not the deciding factor in everything that it was while I was in high school. (I think thats maturity... From me!?!) Wetzel |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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My school work has suffered tremendously as a result of FIRST. But you know what? I don't really care. My life is much more enriched, and I hope the kids' lives are better for it, too. I have good enough grades that I don't get kicked out of school. I consider FIRST a better preparation for teaching than any class I've taken. And I'm happy, which is all that really matters in the end. If you feel that you can handle FIRST and don't mind the sacrifices, I say go for it. 20 years from now, I doubt you'll look back and say, "I wish I had graduated one semester earlier instead of doing FIRST." |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
Okay,
I'm going to be terribly open... this subject is very close to home, and I've given it a LOT of thought. I'll try to keep my thoughts conherent, and the rant-factor as low as possible. ;-) College FIRST is a roller coaster. Ups, and downs. -There are many awesome moments, incredible positives, and times where you just love your involvement/can't get enough. -There are also times where you're sick of your team, your school, FIRST, and you have a few choice words for Dean "freaking" Kamen and his "every college freshman should get their university involved" speech. ;-) Really, you just have to make sure the ups outnumber the downs. Everyone's experiences are unique. It depends a lot on the team structure, support, and a TON of other factors. Some teams make it easy to be involved, others make it difficult. I think it is 200% different to be a college student involved on an existing team, than being on a college team. (i.e. DJ being on 45, vs. Me on 229). So obviously experiences vary with that. It all comes down to responsibility... I imagine it is waaay easier for DJ to say "I have a big test to study for, I can't work this week" than it is for someone like Matt Adams (or myself... ;)) Often times, it becomes easy to say things like "my team is counting on me, I NEED to get this done". In my opinion... this pressure is almost too much. I remember back in HS, when our mentor would say "That's it... I'm never doing this again." We all looked at him with our big HSer "bambi eyes" and said stuff like "You can't quit... we NEED you". Inevitably... he'd be back again. I never thought I'd be one of those people threatening to quit every year, but being dragged back over and over again. (again... the ups and the downs... when you're down, it's easy to threaten you're never coming back). Mentor burnout sucks. It sucks a lot as an engineer, and ohhh baby does it suck as a college student. Beware. Make sure your involvement is manageble. Make sure the resources are there to make your involvement EASIER on you (and your GPA) instead of HARDER. It can be a slippery slope. When "someone has to step up... it might as well be me". Another thing to consider... As a college mentor, are you in FIRST for the right reasons?? I was not. It took a couple serious kicks in the butt (thanks man ;)) before I realized that I wasn't actually a college mentor... more like some over-aged HS student. There are entire teams of over-aged HS students, and this isn't a terrible thing... but every team needs a few people who are... (at the risk of sounding terribly arrogant) beyond that. There is a big difference between being an actual college mentor, and being a college-wannabe-HSer. The amout of effort it took me to bridge the gap is... incredible. (okay... you can all quit snickering... I know I'm still working on it). Maybe other people have an easier time with this, and maybe I'm just weird but... I spend every day trying to be a better mentor, and making sure our HS students are having a positive experience. I only hope I can do as well for them, as my mentors did for me. Okay... So... do I regret my involvement in college-FIRST and 229? Well... yes and no. I would be a very different person... VERY different if the last 3 years of my life had been FIRST-less. A lot of interesting opportunites have opened up for me, I've met a lot of VERY interesting people, and been exposed to a lot of interesting things. (Note my choice of adjective ;)) It's been fun, but I do wish I had stayed a little bit higher up on the slope. So along with Matt... I'll proclaim that I'm too involved. I still wish Dean Kamen would get up on stage and say: "To all you HS seniors... I have some HW for you... next year, when you go off to your respective institutions of higher learning... I want you to make sure, you do what is best for YOU. Settle in, get comfortable at school, make friends. Make sure you keep your grades respectible... and if you find time to stay involved with FIRST... GREAT. Volunteer at a regional, help a local team, drag some people to the nearest event. Do whatever you can to help this program, but only do what you can, and not more." Fat Chance. Then again... lots of people warned me and... it didn't matter. ;-) JVN Wanna-be-Mentor 229 PS - I've only begun to scratch the surface of my thoughts with this post. Feel free to get in touch if you want more ranting, or if you just want to tell me off. PPS - Matt Adams is my hero. ;-) Keep fighting the good fight buddy. |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
going straight from high school to college starting a team in my freshman year I will throw my two cents in.....
I'm with George in the fact that doing FIRST makes me happy....I could work harder in certain classes, but it is doubtful I would use that time productively..... I cannot say it was easy to start this team (with RogerR's help), but hey if one person is affected how I was by FIRST I believe I did my job.... This is my first FIRST team that I've started, but I sincerely doubt it will be my last.....it is a lot of responsibility, but the companies nowadays are looking for leadership qualities.....a 4.0 is nice, but being able to put together projects start and finish them is what industry is really looking for..... FIRST i believe is one huge driver for networking and industry contacts with this people in companies knowing who I am and what I've done and have no doubt that I can do the job.....basically I won't have to search for a job when i get my degree.....I will have jobs waiting for me..... Overall the pressure and responsibility are worth it in the long run imho.....there are my two cents now hopefully more ppl will come to USF to help start more teams, and work with the existing ones..... |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
Being a college mentor is not an easy thing. You're all doing a great job in taking some action and being a positive influence, all in different ways. You should congratulate yourselves on the hard work and effort you've put into this program.
"It's what you do, and not what you say If you're not part of the future, then get out of way..." - John Mellencamp |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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Alumni. Purdue University often talks about how there are more Purdue engineers practicing than from any other school in the country. Countless people stop by and say, "Hey, I went to Purdue! How are your robot doing?" Mind you, there is NO PRESSURE from the alumni, they're honestly just curious. They're not going to pull funding or kick me off the team... I just have a huge amount of respect for Purdue and its alumni. When those alumni ask me how we're doing, I want to be able to say, "We're doing great, our robot's performing well, and we're 4-2 today." Saying "Uh, our robot's over the weight limit, our drive system broke down and we're 1-5" is something I just couldn't say. Since I won't dare compromise the integrity of our team by cheating or entering grey areas, it means only one thing- we gotta work harder both in and out of season. Since we have no practicing engineers, we need to rapidly educate our advisors and high schoolers with bare bones engineering information so that we're on the same page, on a yearly basis. I'll openly admit that some of our seniors this year were significantly better than a few new advisors, it's because of experience, dedication, and education that they've recieved. On the plus side, since we have no practicing engineers and I'm among the oldest advisors, I need to be REALLY sure I can apply the engineering I'm learning in the classroom to real life. If this means getting ahead in a course to decide if a part will fail due to loading... I'm going to do it. Maybe this is the way that engineers feel about the companies they work for, and maybe not. But nevertheless, this is something a lot of the advisors from Purdue and I feel very strongly about. Matt |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
When I started up in college I attended Wentworth while walking down the road to Northeastern to help out with team 125. I realized after a few meetings that this team wasnt like my old team. They didnt have one BIG sponsor that paid for everything they asked for and gave them huge amounts of money and working space.
To me seeing that, it was FIRST cluture shock, I honestly did not know what exactly I was going to be able to do on the team. Through out the pre-season I slowly got used to the new workshop and the new people that surrounded me, and then slowly I realized that I was no longer the one who took orders, I was the one giving them, not orders Persay, morelike sugesstions pushing the new students in the right direction. Unfortanetly for certain reasons I decided to not return for the spring semester, this meant I would not be helping 125. I had a falling out with my Major at Wentworth, Mechanical Engineering. I decided I needed to distance my self as much as I could from any and all things Engineering, including FIRST. However over christmas break, I got the bug, you all have gotten it before... Kickoff, yea I couldnt wait to go to kickoff and see what this years game entailed. Thinking simply I would go to Kickoff, watch and leave. That never happend, I stayed for the design meetings, eventually I started going to meetings again. Soon enough I was doing more than I had done in my Senior year in High School. Through out the build season I used past lessons learned to keep the new kids on track as I had done with 125, but this was back with my Old team, so I felt much more comfortable doing it. I kept Morale up with everybody telling them it was going to be done on time, I always made sure everybody was doing something. Toward the End of the season, one of the head engineeris with 151 approached me and said, that becasuse I had put in so many long hours as a mentor they decided that they were going to pay my way to Nationals. I was in and utter state of shock when they told me this. I had to idea that they would ever do something like that for me. The last build night however was filled with downfalls, we found out due to center of gravity issuses our robot could not climb the lip as we had designed it to. Everybody who had worked so hard on it tried to be positive... but we couldnt it didnt work... what else was there? We shabbly packed both crates and left to go home and get some sleep. I guess John said it best. "You just have to make sure the ups outnumber the downs." This year they did, we did great at regionals are are hoping to do better at Nationals and Ken to answer your question... Better than I could have ever Imagined! -Aaron |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
A lot of great responds guys, thank you so much. We touched on a lot of good points. Before we start going off into different directions based on the responds we've seen, I want to focus our energy into a more specific topic on this subject, and move onto the next level of discussion. If you want to reply to the original post, feel free to do so, but please reply under that original post.
Now, moving into a more focused topic, I want to talk about the concept of a "College FIRST mentor". More specifically, I am talking about those college students who decided to start their own team when they went from high school to college. They often play a major, if not a complete role as a team leader as well as a college student. My questions for you fellow college student is this: Have you been this role before? And if so, how did it affect your life, school work, and participation in FIRST? If not, do you think this is something you want to do? Do you recommend other High School graduates to become a college FIRST mentor? Why or why not? Do you think college students are appropriate mentors? How do they compare to adult mentors who are teachers, engineers, or parents? I want to focus in this topic because I've seen many friends who ran a team when they went to college, got burnt out, and told me that experience had a negative impact on their lives. I myself am not convinced it is what college student should do when they graduate from high school. But I won't post any of my opinions until others have done so. So, please reply under this post, and keep all the answers to the original questions under the thread starter. Can't wait to see more responds! |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
I think the hardest part about being a college mentor is being able to effectively connect with the high schoolers. We're too far apart in age to be at the same maturity level. At the same time we're close enough that we can understand their problems. I know for me, the older I get the more effective I am in mentoring.
It makes for a great team if you can balance high schoolers, college mentors, and parents. The parents know how to collectively and calmly talk to the high school kids. Which makes parents great coaches. |
College Mentors
I think that college students make good mentors, I went back and mentored my old team when I was home on co-op my sophomore year and it went well. BUT, I think that it needs to be in combination with other adult mentors. College mentors are good because they give a different perspective than a practicing engineer or a parent could, and the HSers can go to them for questions about college apps and college programs and how college is and such. But a college student is still a student and I think still needs some guidance and first and for most is a student, so they can't do alone, as much as they want to try.
With the Drexel FIRST Robotics club, I'm actually quite proud of my group, since they decided at our last meeting that for next year, we are not going to start our own team. They feel that we would be more help to the Philly area teams if we mentored the existing teams rather than start our own team. So my plan to stay involved in FIRST in college is to mentor needy area teams and volunteer at regionals, rather than start my own team. Engineering isn't easy (esp.when you're doubling in EE and BME like me), and I tell everyone in the robotics club I understand if they don't have the time to mentor a team, but they want to stay involved. That's what volunteering at a regional, or an FLL tournament, or an off-season comp is for. :] |
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I probably put in about 200 or so man hours during the 2001 build period. I also helped setup at the Silicon Valley Regional. In 2002 I put in over 400 man hours of work (twice the amount I had done the previous year) during the build period, and roughly $4,000 of my own money (against the advice of people like Jason Morrella). In 2002 I volunteered at both the Silicon Valley Regional and the Southern California Regional. In 2003, for the second straight season, I put in over 400 man hours of work during the build period, and more than $2,500 of my own money. In 2003 I volunteered at the Sacramento Regional, Southern California Regional, and The Championship Event. In 2004 I, yet again, put in over 400 man hours of work during the build period, but only $500 or so (because my brother Jim foot the bill for roughly $1,500 worth of materials). I’m going to be volunteering at the Sacramento Regional this week. Quote:
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But sort of like what JVN said earlier, whenever I hear Dean’s speech about college kids going out and starting a team or helping a team or getting their college / employer to start a team I feel like screaming. It’s a ton to ask of a person who should try to focus on their education, and getting acclimatized to their college. On a side note... I was so upset when Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers announced they would only gave veteran teams grants if they mentored a rookie team. This started up a lot of teams out here in California over a 2 year period, but then when KPC&B backed down their donations this past year a lot of teams went under. They forced an expansion that couldn’t be sustained without their support, and then (as far as I can see) they just walked away and left 15-20 teams to perish or otherwise suffer. I saw this coming back in 2001 when they announced this type of sponsorship. I can see similar things happening to college student founded teams in the future (especially teams where the college students run the team). If for some reason the college mentor supply runs out, or isn’t constantly replenished each year the team runs the risk of losing its leadership / design assistance / machining facilities / etc. There are some pretty scary scenarios that could play out in the next 5 years or so for some current teams and some future teams. I would write more, but I can't really think of what to say at the moment (and I need to drive to Sacramento in 7 hours). |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
I think I can safely say at this point that I've almost done it all with FIRST. I've learned a lot from it including a lot of what not to do. I spent three years in high school on a very student run team (1998 to 2000 on team 7). After I graduated from high school I thought that this had prepared me very well to do anything I wanted in FIRST. I was very wrong; I still had quite a bit to learn.
My first year in college (2001) I helped (although helped might be a bit weak word) to restart team 73 and ended up running the team. In short, it almost ended as a total mess. We did manage to work everything out in the end but many things went wrong. One of the major things I learned from that experience is that you need to either be involved in adminstrative issues or engineering issues, not both. In 2002, given that 73 didn't have any funding, I participated as a mentor on 340. This was a rather different experience as 340 was well organized, well funded, and had a strong mentor base. I simply helped with the electronics and the programming that year. In 2003, I helped with the second restart of 73 during the off season and then went on coop for the winter. That year I mentored team 888 which made me attempt to be a mechanical engineer which did not turn out so well. In May of 2003 we started to float the idea of RIT holding a regional competition in 2005. I was involved in the initial start up of that effort and only became less involved because I moved to California for a coop. While I arrived here in the middle of the first week of build, I was connected with team 1135. They asked me to be their engineering lead and (somewhat against my better judgement) I accepted. We got a robot built but otherwise we can't exactly decide whether or not the season was successful. There are a number of issues wrapped up in being a college mentor. I think I've been saying that you have to make sure you're in FIRST for the right reason as long as John V. Neunn has been (or maybe even longer). We loose more than half of the people that initially show up for meetings from our team simply because it wasn't what they expected. It's important to remember that every team is different and that you shouldn't expect it to be the same as when you were in high school. If you're not mentoring for the sake of the students, you're usually better off not doing it at all. FIRST also requires a huge time committment. It takes a good amount of maturity (an amount that some college students are missing) in order to be able to schedule your school work, your personal life, and FIRST successfully and not neglect one of them too greatly. Have I burned out? Yes, and I've said many times that this year will be my last year (or I need a break). None of its happened. Part of that is because I feel a responsibility to the program, part of it is because I like FIRST a lot. I think I used to be more involved (I think most of the people from the old days of Chief Delphi know me but many fewer from now) outside of my team but I've just lost the energy with which to do it. Part of that has been my coping strategy for dealing with the stress; just don't be quite as involved so that I don't take things as badly when they go wrong. The question was posed as to whether or not college freshmen should join FIRST teams. The answer is yes if you're doing it for the right reason, if you can schedule your school work around it successfully (the key being successfully), and if you can be a positive contributing member of the team. But this is pretty much the same for any mentor. For the final questions Ken posed, college students can make great mentors. They can also make awful mentors. It's the same way with adults. I don't really see much of a difference between the mentoring ability of adults and college students simply because there really isn't any. We're all people and we all can do either well or badly. Matt |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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If you put in 250 hours during the build season, eagerly waited around for jobs to do, drove the robot for 4 years, have 2,000 posts on Cheif Delphi and your whole life was changed by FIRST.... it doesn't matter in the slightest. One doesn't become a mentor because of a title, age, or even because of their passion. You becomes a mentor when you've truly touched someone's life. I see the title of mentor, advisor, and engineer thrown around interchangablely in these threads... when it couldn't be farther from the truth. The minute that YOU decide that YOU are a mentor or a role model is the time when you probably couldn't be farther from it. It's not a God-given title or one you bestow upon yourself, it's a title given by someone else whose life you've touched who decided to let you know. To keep on topic a bit more... college students, I believe, can be among the greatest mentors. The age difference is minute, and it gives high school students the unique opportunty to see not where they'll be in 10 or 20 or 40 years, but where they'll be in 2 or 3. They'll have the chance to see that college isn't about partying and keggers, but rather it's about growing up, getting a better grasp about the world around you, getting an education in a focused field you enjoy, giving back to your community, sleepless nights, cramming for exams, and having a once in a lifetime chance to do things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise. When high school students see THAT aspect of college, the reality of it, it loses that unatainable aura. It motivates them to do better in school so they can be just like YOU. It's incredibly humbling and incredibly rewarding. So to answer the question: Q: Do you recommend other High School graduates to become a college FIRST mentor? A: Only if you're going to give 100% of yourself, and try to improve the lives of the students you're working alongside by living out a life that will have a positive affect on them. If you just want to build a robot, just want to have a good time, or if you want try to relive your high school days... don't bother. Don't go back to your high school's team because you have nothing better to do or because you really miss FIRST. Go back and make a difference- don't just participate. Matt |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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Considering a mechanical engineering major college student. Do you think he/she is a better mentor than an mechanical engineer with industry experience, who've done many work on robotics or automobiles? How about a junior in college compare to a parent who is also on the school PTA board? Or comparing to an experienced teacher who've taught physics for many years? Do you really think college students can be good mentors, when we just graduated high school ourselves, with nothing more than FIRST experiences in ourselves, and still waiting to see the world out there and decide what we want to do? There are some pretty amazing college students who are still participating in FIRST. They are amazing because they are good at coaching their team, organizing off season events, or build good robots because of their FIRST experiences. But, do you think they make great mentors? That is the question I post to the rest of you. Don't quickly assume my answer is no based on what I wrote in this post. I am just trying to get you thinking ;-). |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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Let me elaborate: I go to Kettering University where the Co-op program involves all grades and runs in three motnh intervals. From October to December I was in Michigan, in college. Now, from January to the end of March, I am in Virginia, working at my job. Since I have the benefit of not taking classes while doing FIRST, it hasn't affected my grades. Quote:
Now that youv'e clarfied, a followup- I think college students can make good FIRST mentors, even if we don't have the experience to back it up. After doing FIRST for four years, I generally know what will and what won't break. I can't prove that it will and our robot is probably exteremly inside the safety margins, but it accomplishes its task. FIRST is like industry experience in a way. After doing a job for a period of time, you know what goes and what doesn't. It's just like when a machinist tells you something will break. He has seen it enough times that he doesn't need to prove it mathmatically, although kudos if he can. While most machinsists have years of experience, I think the analogy is still somewhat valid. Sincerely, Andrew LaVinus College student at Kettering University and Mentor of Team 1123 |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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Yes, mentoring is hard work. Some meetings I come home, and I want to beat my head against the wall. But it's all worth it and I wouldn't trade it for the world. I think the best moment for me this year was the first time they didn't design a battlebot and I realized I had finally beat an ounce of GP into them. Allison |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
Most people have hit up what was going to my big point - being a college student and running a FIRST team is a tough task. Matt Adams makes an important distinction - I'd have to say it's much harder to be on an all college mentor team than one that's mixed (I can say that b/c I've been on both - 128 originally had Ohio State students and AEP engineers, and now teams 677, 1014, and 1317 are nearly all Ohio State students (with a few parents here and there)). He also alludes to another big problem - turnover rates. It's very challenging to develop a self-sustaining team when, by definition, the turnover rate is quite high. We usually get 2 or 3 good years out of our mentors. How can you develop a team that is self sustaining while facing the challenging of having no long term mentors, other than potentially a professor (we've been blessed, others may not be so lucky)? We've tried to address that within our org structure and culture - it's important that we try to pass on our knowledge and cultivate younger members and groom them for the future. But, it's often a mixed bag. For us we've found it's much easier to find indians than cheifs, and how do you identify potential leaders in such a short time frame?
As far as college students serving as effective mentors, this is a topic I've thought about a great deal. In talking with our students, they find that it's easier to talk to us and ask us questions because we're much closer to them in age (this I think was the case when we had a mentor mix on team 128 as well). I also think (no offense) that we do a better job of explaining things to them, since it wasn't too long ago that we were in their shoes. Often times people will take the time to explain step 4 to someone without realizing the don't understand steps 0 through 3. I think we as college mentors avoid this pretty well (and team 1014 has an Engineering Inspiration Award that would agree with me). Granted, we're all still learning too - we make *plenty* of mistakes and stupid design choices that most engineers probably wouldn't make. But, in a way that's a good thing - the students learn from our failures just as much as we do. We've also found that the students almost enjoy our underdog status - the lowly underfunded college team vs. the big scary engineers. For example, the students got a big kick when team 677 was picked as an alliance partner in Chicago 2002 - the picking team (sorry, don't remember who :( ) didn't realize that we were made of college students and an all girls high school. They really enjoyed the fact that we were picked on our merits, and were able to hold our own against the "real" engineers. The same goes for the college students as well. We get to pick on the other project teams who compete against only other college students - our competition has a huge experience advantage of us. It's nice to go into a competition and hold our own, and the lofty goal of performing well against the Andy Baker's and Joe Johnson's of the world serves as a great motivator. How about another side question - what about students mentoring their old team once they graduate high school? We've only had one mentor sucessfully make the transition from mentee to mentor working with their "home" school. Having seen students come back, I think they often have a hard time fitting in in either realm - they still have friends they still talk to, so they (and their friends) have a hard time making that adjustment to authority figure and role model. The other mentors see them as still trying to fit in with the HS students and not make the leap, and their HS friends don't see them as a mentor. However, since we sponsor 3 teams, something we have had some sucess in is having students work as mentors after graduation, but with another school. That eliminates a lot of those problems. There's still the issue of the mentors "accepting" their former student as a peer, but that's never been an issue since we try to make an effort to treat the HS students as peers. Another interesting side debate - how are all college teams (the OSU, Purdue, WPI, etc.) of the world viewed by the community at large? If you look down the list, those teams usually do well in competition, so it might be a non issue. But... are there stereotypes that we must overcome to be considered "sucessfull"? |
Re: College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?
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I think I can say one of our goals is to actually start moving the mentoring away from the mentors and down to some of the high school students. Personally, I've found that you can learn more from mentoring than you can from being mentored. I don't see why it's not unreasonable to expect that some of the veteran high school students will take over some of the mentoring jobs and probably do a better job than the adult mentors (because they don't have to deal with the politics or the responsibilities). I know this happened on my team this year and it's something I was very happy about. Matt |
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