Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I'm reminded of something Dean said at kickoff this year. Something like "some teams will cheat, some will not."

I saw a match in GLR where a team intentionaly knocked another team off of the bar. In the rules, it is stated that you cannot build a robot with the intent of damaging other robots. However, their robot was not built for the purpose of knocking other robots off. Besides, it says in the rules that you can't descore small balls, but it says nothing about knocking bots off the bar.

Which brings me back to what Dean said. This game is designed with the understanding that not all teams will play with both grace and professionalism. If a team knocks over your bot, whether it was accidental or not, they probably noticed. If it was intentional, then that team probably has interpeted the rules to say its okay. If the refs don't say anything, then neither should you. Leave that team to figure out gracious professionalism for themselves.

Besides, the best way to teach is through example.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

At UCF a robot tipped us over and then rammed us three times. The judges didn't call them for it but it sure was a mean thing to do. X3

In another match at UCF we were haning on the bar and another team grabbed onto our hook with theirs to try and knock us off, and it ended up breaking our hook and making us fall over. Our robot was fine because we built it to take that sort of thing. But the team did come over and apologize (mainly because they were also our next alliance). We fixed the hook in no time and were ready to go. I was really angry about it until I heard that they apologized. You'd be suprized how well that sort of thing works. =P

On a side note, our robot was not built to right itself up after falling, but here are examples of MIRACLES:
A) Our robot gets pushed off the platform when we're tring to hang by a good robot, and we land on a 2x ball. :ahh: We use the 2x ball and our arm to right our selves up. We didn't have enough time to hang but it was really cool.
B) We were again pushed off of the platform, but we landed on a stationary goal. (Remember we did not build our robot to be able to right itself up) We open our 2x ball grippers throw our arm back and use the goal to right our selves. Get onto the platform, where we are pushed off AGAIN onto a stationary goal on the other side. We used the same strategy and righted our selves up got onto the platform and hanged anyway.

Wow James really can drive that robot well. ;)

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

A percentage of these "flippings" are intentional. I know because we were the subject to one such attempt. We were in the middle of a qualifying match when another robot strolled next to us and lifted a 3 foot arm under our robot, flipping us forward. I thought it was just an akward collission until after the match when i was shown video footage as well as digital pictures of this arm going under our robot, then raising in an attempt to flip us (i say attempt because we have a phenomenal arm operator who was able use the arm and a mobil goal to save us). I am very curious as to what other function this arm serves and intend on checking things out at our next regional. i also plan on checking to see if this team has treated other teams in this way. if they have, i intend on conforonting the referees about it. this behaviour is very unFIRST. Perhaps the team does not realize this, as many teams are fairly new and dont have the "FIRST thing" figured out yet. I do however hope that they will realize that their actions are hurtful, and somewhat resented.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Be careful about asking about the arm, most teams do have arms to either hang or manuevre the big ball. We have an arm for hanging although thanks to our arm operator, we have used it to flip ourselves back-up. Just to anyone out there, keep an eye on team 341's arm operator, he is really fantastic at flipping us back up with the arm if we've been flipped. We had this one match at Nats last year I think, we were flipped with like 10-15 secs left, we were flipped, but we flipped back up and then our driver (also very good) got us back onto the ramp and got us 25 pts just as time expired. Great moment. But anyway, arms do have a whole lot of functions so be careful what you say to various teams.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Reading through this thread has brought a couple of thoughts into my head. First, with regards to intentional tipping, I do recall rules in previous years against intentional tipping. I was a ref at nationals last year, and I remember having a number of discussions and throwing a few flags for intentional tipping. Of course contact is a part of the game, but if your strategy is to capitolize on a vulnerable situation for the sake of taking the glory of a high rank, I think that sort of sidesteps the meaning of FIRST.

Second, I wonder what the intention behind tipping is at all, besides simply winning the match... I recall from my first year in FIRST, in 2000, there was a match where one robot accidentally tipped an opposing robot over. Rather than take the easy win, that same opposing robot used their arm to right the tipped robot in a fantastic display of gracious professionalism. It was that match which inspired a huge portion of my interest in FIRST, knowing that it's not just another mindless athletic competition. Whenever I see or hear about maliciously trying to gain an upper hand in a match via tipping or descoring or whatever, it makes me sad to think of what FIRST is becoming as it grows, and I remember back to that match, and wonder what happened. I know there are plenty of teams out there who would still right a tipped robot, but people coming into this competition expecting to see battlebot like destruction makes me wonder why these people are in FIRST to begin with.

Just my two cents.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I think that's an excellent point, getting tipped is part of the game. The audience really reacts to it, and it just makes you look MORE impressive when you're able to right yourselves afterwards. That's always great to watch.

There was some iffy behavior on this topic at the SBPLI Regional. And I use the word "iffy" loosely because I don't really see it as a problem, although some might.

Sometimes when a robot is tipped, the crowd cheers. Which kinda stinks if you're the robot who got tipped :-/ but you can see how people get excited over it. When a robot is tipped, it takes them out of the match unless they can right themselves, and that is an advantage to their opponents.

In one of our matches 3 of the 4 robots where tipped and there was lots of cheering. It seemed like some teams were upset at the reaction to their tipping and were even more enthusiastic to see others tipped. All in all it was a crazy match and I can see how some people may have been offended by the reactions of the crowd and drivers when different robots fell over.

BUT I see it just as part of the game. A similar example was when two teams were going for the bar. Our opponents were about to hook onto it and we managed to slip our hook under theirs. We didn't pull ourselves up but they did. However we were excited that we got our hook under theirs, because that would disqualify their hang. Yes it kind of stinks but it's just another part of the game. The other team wasn't too happy with us (which made things awkward, since we were their next alliance partner :)), but it's all part of the game.

Just as tipping is. So as long as it's not intentional and nothing breaks, I think everyone can just relax about it.

So I think there may have been some hurt feelings, but I thought that, in general, SBPLI put on a great display of that whole gracious professionalism thing. :)

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Wow that is worthy of serious action to be taken if it could be proven that someone did that and it was detrimental to the team. Hopefully you or someone else plugged the batteries back in though...that kind of thing deserves disqualification or something.

On another note, at Chesapeake during one of the quarterfinal matches, a team from the opposite alliance got its arm stuck in 1257's net and wound up mangling 1257's net and frame a bit as well as potentially keeping 1257 from being completely off of the platform. But like many other things that happen in a round, it happened and it was unintentional. I just hope teams keep in mind that it is a privilege to be part of FIRST and to have the opportunity to compete with such great people. Dean Kamen, Mike Wade, Jim Moore, and all of the other organizers, announcers, judges, and volunteers, not to mention the students...they put their heart and soul into FIRST and their effort doesn't deserve to be met with immaturity and unprofessional behavior. The point of this whole thing is to have fun, but to also build people and skills.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Sacramento had its share of both good and bad. To name one of each:

Good: During one match, a robot was beached on a ball. In an awesome gesture, their opponent came over and pushed them off the ball and let them continue the match.

Bad: On Friday, one particular team's robot gained a reputation for playing dirty. They were a big and powerful robot, and several teams complained of being driven up upon, whereupon the offending team spun their treads and ripped up electronics boards and such, clearly not intending to get off the robot underneath. I never saw it myself, in the pits all day as I was, but there was definately a lot of anger about it from some sectors...

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I reall don't remeber seeing anything there that was at all iffy. Can you elaberate. In fact it was actually quite nice with all the people walking up to us and helping fix our robot.

Gracious Professionalism is like....
 

Gracious Professionalism is like being cool. You don't know reall know until you are pointed out for being so. And if say you are cool, you arn't. If someone says you arn't cool, then they arn't cool. It's like that. GP is karma, it's something that dosn't need to be recognized, but is just known by others and yourself. Don't let it get to your head.

I think we need that little metaphor for people to think about.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I was really dissapointed this year with the way the regional we went to went. Our team was quite intentionally rammed into repeatedly and then intentionally tipped over during a semi-final match. Then the team who did it cheered. The drive team was cheering at the fact that they tipped us over. It bothered me because in the four years I've been involved with FIRST, I never thought I would ever see something that nasty happen by any team.