Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

During one of our rounds and many other qualifying rounds I saw, robots were pushed over unintentionally. Still, there was some unhappy people out there holding a grudge against the teams that accidentally tipped over other teams robots. People need to understand that due to this years game, many robots were built that can be tipped fairly easy and that it is part of the game. Most people who understand the concept behind FIRST and the idea of "gracious professionalism" cause no problem but still, this issue remains in my mind.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

You have to remember, when you are in the heat of competition people react first before they think. Particualrly those new to FIRST. Just be the bigger person and give them time to cool out. Sometimes the best way to exibit gracious professionalism is to show other teams how it's done through your own actions.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

very true. Some people need to chill... however, there are some that are right to be mad. In the final match in the BAE regional, the winning alliance double-teamed and flipped team 40 intentionally... twice. the first time 40 was able to right itself using its arm, the second, it was unable to do anything about it. the claim was they were "preventing (them) from climbing the stairs..." by pushing it from one side before it reached them.

I am sure that like team 40, there are other teams that are rightfully angry about flipping, and some that just need to take their licks and learn from them.

this is not a new problem, and I'm sure it may never go away... such is the way of life.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

lots of times when a bot gets knocked over the knocker will run over to the knockee after the match and apologize, and see if any damage has been done, and if anything can be done to help them fix it

during practice at pittsburg our bot ran all the way across the field in auton mode (cause IF autontime=200 is a bug :^) and rammed an opponent bot

we did damage to our own bot and theirs was fine - but I hope every team adopts this as an act of caring - if you bash someone else bot talk to them after the match - make sure everything is ok

wait, wasnt there on contest like this in 'Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy?'

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

This isnt nearly as ungracious and unprofessional as the actions of someone i saw at the portland regional. I dont know why, but I saw him sneak over to team 473 (montana i think) and turn of their surge protector at the end of the day... they were charging a normal and backup battery. And yes, i am sure he wasnt on their team because he wasnt wearing their blue shirts. I dont know why, but unplugging someone's batteries is just disgusting. Anyone in here with me on this?

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I also think that people need to realize that during a match, people are playing to win. If their intention is otherwise, it's visible to everyone else and they will be remembered for their malicious intent. But most of the time, it's just a game. And when people build robots with 12" wheels and try climbing 6" platforms, tipping needs to be expected. Your robot is only as good as you design it to be. I figure that when I am driving in Canada in 10 days, I will either tip or be tipped at least once. And I won't feel too bad about it unless that other teams starts ramming me while I'm on the ground. And hopefully that other team that I tip won't think that I love seeing other team's robots fall and possibly damage itself. It's like any sport - expect some injuries, but try not to be dissuaded from your goals by such petty incidents.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I am absolutely with you if that is true. We usually have a battery "czar" that keeps an eye on our batteries although I don't think we had one at Chesapeake, our batteries were okay though. there was also one thing at Chesapeake that bothered me a little. In one match, there was a team that goes under the ball dispenser and waits for the balls to come down. They then catch them in a net on their robot and then they go over next to the ball corral and spit them out. I think most people would know what kind of robot I'm talkin about. So anyway, in this one match, another team came over and pushed this one robot away from the ball distributor. After the match (which the first team won anyway), a person from the team that was pushed away went and really berated the team that did the pushing. From what I've heard of the exchange, it was something that I would expect from an athletic event, not a FIRST competition. I know that everyone is stressed getting 5 hours of sleep or less per night, but I think that this went a bit far. I thought that it was a legitimate strategy and there were plenty of examples of it at Trenton. Did anyone else see it or have any thoughts on what I said? Thanks.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

A good way that I look at things is if my robot was pushed over, it wasn't the other teams fault, but it was a design flaw on behalf of my team.

Robots should be made robust and durable; I think that preventing your robot from tipping over falls into this category.

When I am driving in the middle of a match, I normally don't have time to stop and think "oh maybe I shouldn't try to push their robot because it will break, or it tips over easily” my mind is set on winning the match.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

In my experiences driving, I had one robot that was prone to tipping, and we tipped ourselves all the time going across the ramp in 2001. In 2003, we were flipped once on top of the ramp. I believe it was an accident as there were several robots attempting for the ramp at the same time, and we got the short end of the stick. However, if you build a robust robot, you will get yourself out of the situation. We were able to use our mast and arm to lift ourselves upright, and drive onto the platform.

..... I have seen a lot of tipping this year, I would suggest talking it over with your opponents if you have a problem with it. They might even suggest something to help you prevent from tipping in the future. :)

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Robots will flip...this is just part of the game. The real question is: "Was the opponent solely interested in flipping others?" Simply building a robot with a wedge and gunning for high robots means yes. If you try to block others and flip them as a result, then its just part of the game.

Its no fun being flipped, but its all part of the challenge. Our team had major problems with this the Sunday before ship, but we did a minor redesign of some systems and came out a lot better. Flipping is a real world challenge--even a major one on the Mars Exploration Rover! Is NASA screaming about it?

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

there is a technical term that psychologists use for people who exhibit this type of behaviour:

Sore Loser!

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

more like sore winner because they won the match. If they had lost, it still would have been bad, but they won the match, what's to complain about. About tipping, it is just a part of the game and it is hard to tell if it was intentional or not. Example: Last year in Houston, we were with Buzz 175 in the playoffs. I think the refs accused Buzz of tipping and what had been a gigantic win for us turned into a 10-point loss. The whole thing was pretty bad because basically, one robot's arm got tangled up with another robot and both tried to pull away and one flipped. I think that even the other alliance was like "That's a penalty?" Fortunately for us, we were able to come back and win the next match and move on.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

really, getting tipped over is just sometimes part of the game, and unless you design your robot not to tip over, then you should just take it in stride. after all, the audience loves seeing a tipped bot here and there (no, i do not encourage intentional tipping...)

but what i don't like is when teams gang up on other teams. I saw this in a match @ Chesapeake, there was a great team that was just trying to do their thing, and the other teams just ganged up on 'em, even their alliance :mad: this is what sets me off. The 'victimized team' was doing quite well in the standings, and the other teams wanted to annialate them. i mean come on people, this is truly the opitomy of ungraciousness and unprofessionalism. If there's a team doing well, you don't try to destoy them, but rather you should go to their pits and congratulate their drivers and mentors for doing such a great job, that is what FIRST is all about. :cool:

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I am not sure when this took place if it was in the quarter finals or before.... But I am the driver of team 11 and I did push this robot away from the "Ball Waterfall" but I made sure as to not destroy the robot in any way. They then came to our alliance side and grabbed our balls that fell and tried getting to the other side. I once again blocked them from getting to thier side and someway or another did become immoble. Afterwards there was no confrontation at all until back in the pits where a driver from the opposing alliance went up to another member of the opposing alliance(from a different team obviously) about being pushed. Turns out I think that balls were being passed from one human player to another and hit the driver making him lose grip on the 2x ball. But Team 11 and our alliance partners were never yelled at or confronted.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I believe Fred is talking about another occurence- and I was right there when it happened. The way i saw it was, a proud mother of a rookie team saw this game differently than it really is. Many people view it as an non-battlebot competition, with NO contact at all. The reality is: there will be some contact, and please think before you speak.


*This is my opinion only and does not represent Team 341*

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I'm reminded of something Dean said at kickoff this year. Something like "some teams will cheat, some will not."

I saw a match in GLR where a team intentionaly knocked another team off of the bar. In the rules, it is stated that you cannot build a robot with the intent of damaging other robots. However, their robot was not built for the purpose of knocking other robots off. Besides, it says in the rules that you can't descore small balls, but it says nothing about knocking bots off the bar.

Which brings me back to what Dean said. This game is designed with the understanding that not all teams will play with both grace and professionalism. If a team knocks over your bot, whether it was accidental or not, they probably noticed. If it was intentional, then that team probably has interpeted the rules to say its okay. If the refs don't say anything, then neither should you. Leave that team to figure out gracious professionalism for themselves.

Besides, the best way to teach is through example.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

At UCF a robot tipped us over and then rammed us three times. The judges didn't call them for it but it sure was a mean thing to do. X3

In another match at UCF we were haning on the bar and another team grabbed onto our hook with theirs to try and knock us off, and it ended up breaking our hook and making us fall over. Our robot was fine because we built it to take that sort of thing. But the team did come over and apologize (mainly because they were also our next alliance). We fixed the hook in no time and were ready to go. I was really angry about it until I heard that they apologized. You'd be suprized how well that sort of thing works. =P

On a side note, our robot was not built to right itself up after falling, but here are examples of MIRACLES:
A) Our robot gets pushed off the platform when we're tring to hang by a good robot, and we land on a 2x ball. :ahh: We use the 2x ball and our arm to right our selves up. We didn't have enough time to hang but it was really cool.
B) We were again pushed off of the platform, but we landed on a stationary goal. (Remember we did not build our robot to be able to right itself up) We open our 2x ball grippers throw our arm back and use the goal to right our selves. Get onto the platform, where we are pushed off AGAIN onto a stationary goal on the other side. We used the same strategy and righted our selves up got onto the platform and hanged anyway.

Wow James really can drive that robot well. ;)

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

A percentage of these "flippings" are intentional. I know because we were the subject to one such attempt. We were in the middle of a qualifying match when another robot strolled next to us and lifted a 3 foot arm under our robot, flipping us forward. I thought it was just an akward collission until after the match when i was shown video footage as well as digital pictures of this arm going under our robot, then raising in an attempt to flip us (i say attempt because we have a phenomenal arm operator who was able use the arm and a mobil goal to save us). I am very curious as to what other function this arm serves and intend on checking things out at our next regional. i also plan on checking to see if this team has treated other teams in this way. if they have, i intend on conforonting the referees about it. this behaviour is very unFIRST. Perhaps the team does not realize this, as many teams are fairly new and dont have the "FIRST thing" figured out yet. I do however hope that they will realize that their actions are hurtful, and somewhat resented.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Be careful about asking about the arm, most teams do have arms to either hang or manuevre the big ball. We have an arm for hanging although thanks to our arm operator, we have used it to flip ourselves back-up. Just to anyone out there, keep an eye on team 341's arm operator, he is really fantastic at flipping us back up with the arm if we've been flipped. We had this one match at Nats last year I think, we were flipped with like 10-15 secs left, we were flipped, but we flipped back up and then our driver (also very good) got us back onto the ramp and got us 25 pts just as time expired. Great moment. But anyway, arms do have a whole lot of functions so be careful what you say to various teams.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Reading through this thread has brought a couple of thoughts into my head. First, with regards to intentional tipping, I do recall rules in previous years against intentional tipping. I was a ref at nationals last year, and I remember having a number of discussions and throwing a few flags for intentional tipping. Of course contact is a part of the game, but if your strategy is to capitolize on a vulnerable situation for the sake of taking the glory of a high rank, I think that sort of sidesteps the meaning of FIRST.

Second, I wonder what the intention behind tipping is at all, besides simply winning the match... I recall from my first year in FIRST, in 2000, there was a match where one robot accidentally tipped an opposing robot over. Rather than take the easy win, that same opposing robot used their arm to right the tipped robot in a fantastic display of gracious professionalism. It was that match which inspired a huge portion of my interest in FIRST, knowing that it's not just another mindless athletic competition. Whenever I see or hear about maliciously trying to gain an upper hand in a match via tipping or descoring or whatever, it makes me sad to think of what FIRST is becoming as it grows, and I remember back to that match, and wonder what happened. I know there are plenty of teams out there who would still right a tipped robot, but people coming into this competition expecting to see battlebot like destruction makes me wonder why these people are in FIRST to begin with.

Just my two cents.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I think that's an excellent point, getting tipped is part of the game. The audience really reacts to it, and it just makes you look MORE impressive when you're able to right yourselves afterwards. That's always great to watch.

There was some iffy behavior on this topic at the SBPLI Regional. And I use the word "iffy" loosely because I don't really see it as a problem, although some might.

Sometimes when a robot is tipped, the crowd cheers. Which kinda stinks if you're the robot who got tipped :-/ but you can see how people get excited over it. When a robot is tipped, it takes them out of the match unless they can right themselves, and that is an advantage to their opponents.

In one of our matches 3 of the 4 robots where tipped and there was lots of cheering. It seemed like some teams were upset at the reaction to their tipping and were even more enthusiastic to see others tipped. All in all it was a crazy match and I can see how some people may have been offended by the reactions of the crowd and drivers when different robots fell over.

BUT I see it just as part of the game. A similar example was when two teams were going for the bar. Our opponents were about to hook onto it and we managed to slip our hook under theirs. We didn't pull ourselves up but they did. However we were excited that we got our hook under theirs, because that would disqualify their hang. Yes it kind of stinks but it's just another part of the game. The other team wasn't too happy with us (which made things awkward, since we were their next alliance partner :)), but it's all part of the game.

Just as tipping is. So as long as it's not intentional and nothing breaks, I think everyone can just relax about it.

So I think there may have been some hurt feelings, but I thought that, in general, SBPLI put on a great display of that whole gracious professionalism thing. :)

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Wow that is worthy of serious action to be taken if it could be proven that someone did that and it was detrimental to the team. Hopefully you or someone else plugged the batteries back in though...that kind of thing deserves disqualification or something.

On another note, at Chesapeake during one of the quarterfinal matches, a team from the opposite alliance got its arm stuck in 1257's net and wound up mangling 1257's net and frame a bit as well as potentially keeping 1257 from being completely off of the platform. But like many other things that happen in a round, it happened and it was unintentional. I just hope teams keep in mind that it is a privilege to be part of FIRST and to have the opportunity to compete with such great people. Dean Kamen, Mike Wade, Jim Moore, and all of the other organizers, announcers, judges, and volunteers, not to mention the students...they put their heart and soul into FIRST and their effort doesn't deserve to be met with immaturity and unprofessional behavior. The point of this whole thing is to have fun, but to also build people and skills.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

Sacramento had its share of both good and bad. To name one of each:

Good: During one match, a robot was beached on a ball. In an awesome gesture, their opponent came over and pushed them off the ball and let them continue the match.

Bad: On Friday, one particular team's robot gained a reputation for playing dirty. They were a big and powerful robot, and several teams complained of being driven up upon, whereupon the offending team spun their treads and ripped up electronics boards and such, clearly not intending to get off the robot underneath. I never saw it myself, in the pits all day as I was, but there was definately a lot of anger about it from some sectors...

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I reall don't remeber seeing anything there that was at all iffy. Can you elaberate. In fact it was actually quite nice with all the people walking up to us and helping fix our robot.

Gracious Professionalism is like....
 

Gracious Professionalism is like being cool. You don't know reall know until you are pointed out for being so. And if say you are cool, you arn't. If someone says you arn't cool, then they arn't cool. It's like that. GP is karma, it's something that dosn't need to be recognized, but is just known by others and yourself. Don't let it get to your head.

I think we need that little metaphor for people to think about.

Re: Ungracious and unprofessional...
 

I was really dissapointed this year with the way the regional we went to went. Our team was quite intentionally rammed into repeatedly and then intentionally tipped over during a semi-final match. Then the team who did it cheered. The drive team was cheering at the fact that they tipped us over. It bothered me because in the four years I've been involved with FIRST, I never thought I would ever see something that nasty happen by any team.