2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Let's say you're a robot and you want to get rid of the 2X balls. You have to cap a goal. If you place a 2X out of the playing field it will be returned. But what if your team wanted the ball out of the game. You could put it into the ball release, no?

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

You could try, but if I remember correctly, the gate that holds the balls into the corrall stays open after the balls drop, so it would just roll back down.

Cory

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

The gate does stay down. However, I think you could actually place the ball right on the gate. The gate looks to be be parallel with the floor and not angled down (like it probably should). This issue caused problems at the BAE regional, a volunteer would have to shake a support pole violently to try to get stuck balls to fall onto the playing field.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

I believe at all the regionals I have attended (re: NJ, and UTC) that the door on the corral fell and was perpendicular with the playing field (darn gravity).

I guess your field up in BAE must have been broken!!

I think that also if you try to put the ball up there, then that would be considered going out of bounds and may be at the ref's discretion to disable your robot.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

UCF's field the door fell to a horizontal position. Either way back to the begining of this thread. It would be really hard to balance that ball there.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Mike,

I was on Field Reset all three days at BAE, the only day we needed to shake the pole was on Thursday, the pratice day. All other days it worked flawlessly to my receloction.

-Aaron

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Attached is a pic of our drive team in operation in Annapolis. You get a pretty good shot of the ball release. For the purpose of this thread, let's assume that the ball release can support a 2x ball. Is it a good strategy, or even legal?

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

The only rule I would be concerned with is The out of bounds rule that I previously mentioned.

It may also be deemed a safety issue as well. We very well don't want a robot to drop the ball over the wall and on to the drivers while trying to put it up there.

That is, if you COULD do it with the door being how it is.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Right, you would be going out of bounds. But doesn't the rule allow you to go out of bounds? I think you are only disabled if your robot touches the ground or there is a safety concern.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

A rule states that a robot may not cross the top of the 7' wall. I would assume that since the big ball is part of the robot, when being held by it (As I recall from an update/Q&A, I think), they would disable your robot for crossing the plane of the 7' wall.

Cory

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

The out of bounds rule says if your robot has to put force on something outside the playing field to return to play it will be disabled. Its pretty much reffering to landing on the carpet outside the field or getting a hook stuck on the railing/steel cable, etc...
The time it would take you to balance the ball up there is probably not even worth it, why not just push the ball deep into a goal if you want it not to be used?

The ball is an extension of the robot when its being held, so according to that you would be disabled.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

I beleive it is illegal to reach into the ball release, in the rule dealing w/ the ball corrals it says it is illegal to break the plane of the diamond plate, which in theory, extends into infinity. So I doubt you are allowed to reach into the ball realease. Also, teachnically that is out of bounds, and all large balls going out of bound must be returned...

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Ahh, the prodigal son speaks.. And it actually makes sense. :D

Yeah, that sounds about right, even if you were able to do that, it would more than likely be returned back into play.

It was a good idea while it lasted though.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

And the dream dies. Thanks Cory and everyone else for your help. The second you think you have found a loophole in the rules, FIRST is already two steps ahead.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

You would also at least get a 10pt penalty for crossing the plane of the player station. If not disabled because that would be deliberate it happened to several teams in the Midwest regional I remember 45 doing it a few times.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Yeah if you break the plane of the 7ft wall with your robot or ball held by the robot, it's a 10pt penalty each time, not dq. We got that penalty twice in one match (within a few seconds of each other) due to a little craziness while driving in that area... No harm done...

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

I was watching those matchs thanx to the live web cast and it didnt even look like your fault a few times u were pused while holding the ball up there

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Looked more like the ball crossed the plane, not your actual arm--they changed the rules to say the yellow ball is only part of your robot in the cases of goaltending/assisting balls to goals. Hmmm....

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

You know, I believe you're right. If only the 2x ball crossed the wall plane, I don't think we should have gotten a penalty (2 actually). And, even if our robot was pushed so that we crossed the wall plane, the pushing robot should have gotten the penalty. We would have lost that match anyways by 10pts, even without 3 penalties against our alliance.

We also had a match where we were disabled due to the 2x ball in our arm touching the floor outside the field. Although the ref told us that was the reason we were disabled, I'm not sure that's right (2x not being part of our robot in that case). However, it probably would have been deemed unsafe anyways even though we probably could have gotten ourselves back up....
Oh well!! Life goes on...

Edit - Found out we actually did touch the carpet with our robot arm, but it was also a safety concern for the volunteer crew sitting right there.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Hmm... I think FIRST should set a presedence on the ball holding situation. There shouldn't be cases. Either the ball is or is not a part of your robot. Period.

My reccomendation would be that the ball is not part of the robot. I can't even think of a situation where it would make sense to call the ball a part of a robot.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

In a sense, yes. But I think they are right to limit the amount of "blocking" of things that you can do in a game. You can already block both chutes with goals. But if they don't call the 2x ball part of the robot in goaltending, then all we would have to do is grab a 2x ball and hold it over the opponents stationary or mobile goal all day long. That would be boring... I don't know.. I'm sure there's many opinions.. but that's the way it is. We'll just have to make sure to ask the judges at nationals what they say about the rule..

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

this is true, but with our robot, we kinda spit the ball out of our arm, so we can shoot it out while completly in the field along with the 2x ball still in our arm...

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

That brings up another grey area... thanks :D

Caping your opponents goal as a successful way of goal tending. I don't understand how you can't allow goal tending, but you are encouraged to cap your opponents goal to raise your QPs.

Re: 2X Ball Into the Ball Release
 

Well, we were not disabled. I read the rule as - if you're robot crosses the wall plane (ball chute, or above wall) it's a 10pt penalty. You are not disabled. It's not necessarily deliberate, especially if you're being pushed with a ball up in the air. You will be disabled if your robot touches the floor outside the playing field. However, the point was brought up that the 2x ball is only part of your robot in the case of goaltending. So, I'm looking for an update or rule that says otherwise, because I haven't seen it say 2x ball is part of the robot always.

Capping an opponents goal is completely legal to do, to prevent them from scoring balls. However, if your robot is still holding that ball and they shoot, bounces off the 2x you hold, it's goaltending. If you're fast enough to cap it before they can shoot, then it's perfectly legal. But you can't just hold the ball over the goal. I haven't seen many people do it, because the risk of goaltending is pretty high for the amount of time it usually takes for someone to cap anothers goal successfully.

This is sorta getting off topic of the original thread though. All the rules/penalties have been discussed earlier, and I think they're pretty well written now in the updated version of the rules. I want to make sure at nationals about the rule of 2x ball being part of the robot.