Where's the defense this year?
 

Having watched many of the "high scoring" elimination matches over the weekend, it strikes me that too many teams were focused on getting the "50 points" from hanging - and ignoring the fact that their opponent was racking up huge a score by accumulating/herding 5 point balls and capping with the 2X ball. The teams that were good at this seemed to be able to do it unencumbered. No one seemed to be running interference. There was very little defense. And teams didn't adjust their strategies to cope with it. You could almost predict what each match was going to look like. Did anyone else observe the same thing?

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

There were a lot of teams who tried to defend against 177 scoring small balls in the Philly finals. All day friday and into thursday we had been racking up small ball points (up to 90 in a round where our partner did not work at all) without once having the goal capped. We went up against some pretty fierce hangers in the eliminations (most notably 341) who tried to prevent us from getting the small balls. The only problem was that we were so efficient with them that we would score our points, then procede to keep the team which had previously been defending us from hanging with our beefy drive train (thanks to 45)

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Yeah, it was very odd when teams didn't [often] try to stop teams like 16 at Annapolis even after it had its amazing 210 point round were it herded, capped, and hung. It would have defenitley been more effective to take 70 or 80 points from them than get 50 for yourself.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I full hardly agree with you rourke it is so easy for a good multiplier to win over a hanger that goes stright for the 50. Say they hang right away and they have a good HP that sinks all three that is 65 points. You get a good multiplier and even in the mobile goal you can score 120 points enough to beat 2 hanging robots and 3 HP shots and that sint even counting the other robot if it can do the stationary or hang.
Also it seems that as the CD board focuses more and more on highger and hgigher scores to say "Yea, look we just scored X points!!!" they are forgetting about their amounts and the game is turnign very quickly into the pure offense that it was predicted to be like in the pre-season. I am glad my team was able to go to one of the earlier regionals where teams focused on defense just as much as hanging.

Anyway that is just my .02 and of no opinion of my team (521) as a whole or individual

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

At UCF, lots of teams would defend from us catching the balls. However, at the end of matches I agree... few teams play defense. Unless the other team shoots in 5 more balls and caps it with a 2x though, getting the bar will count as more, making it more important... and I think with the time it takes to grab the bar, once teams decide to go for it... they run out of time to swap back and play defense. That's my personal guess as to strategys though.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

At VCU during the first week of regionals I saw several teams push the goals to block the ball corrals, especially against team 33, who ended up being champions. Most herders weren't very efficient, so teams didn't bother blocking them. Teams only usually bothered to block teams that had a hopper and could deliver many balls very quickly.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

the problem is that while you are on the other side of the field trying to stop the other team from scoring, you are racking up ZERO points for yourself

and if the other team sneaks some by, they only have to beat you by 5 points

and they may decide to play the same game and keep you off the bar, then you spent your whole match doing what? nothing

you get no points for being defensive.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

177 was just insane, like I said in a previous thread we couldn't ignore them or they would rack up 100 points with balls alone... so we pushed both goals in their ball chute and hit them just as the balls fell.. it worked until we went to hang and realized while we were tussling with 177 our hook fell off :/, so we went and sucked up some balls... Their nice drivetrain was able to dislodge the mobile goal, and both of us filled up our goals until the buzzer. two penalties did us in, and we lost 60-70, but I'm proud to say we lost to the winning alliance of the Philadelphia Regional, because nobody could stop them from delivering all those balls.

What amazed me most was 177's drivetrain. I would've thought that with two omniwheels they wouldn't be strong, but they were pushing around other robots like rag dolls during the rest of the playoffs. Just wait until they get their hook working.. scary thought, eh?

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

We got defensed.

Big time.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

This probably isnt the best place to ask this, but is there a rul that says you cannot pick a team up off the bar and move them?

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

pick them up?

there was a match at buckeye, I think 340 was on the bar and another team hooked on, and their bot could move sideways on the bar - and they were trying to push 340 sideways, so they let themselves back down with their wheels on the platform and pushed back

and the other team pushed backed again

and 340 pushed them right off the end of the bar.

sad part is, for all the other matches I saw 340 was happy to get on the bar and mind its own business - the other team started the shoving match

and lost.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

very very very true. in the first match at pittsburgh, 188 was playing defence against 808 to try and stop them from hanging, and rode up on a 5 pt ball..despite a 1.5" ground clearance ! :ahh: , and that prevented us from stopping them and they zoomed around to the other side of the field and hung. had we ignored them, herded and capped, we likely would have won.

that being said, a defence shouldnt be excluded from any strategy whatsoever. in fact, it may be simplify things alot for your crew =D

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I remember 279 and 378 were battling to get on the bar and both hooked on and 279 did that way cool clamshell thing it does and toppled 378 right over off the bar.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

There is a rule that I am too lazy to go look up that says that your robot may not INTENTIONALLY go and pick up, flip, impale, burn other robots, etc. You get the gist of the rule.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

though you are allowed to try and knock robots off the bar with 5 pt ball shots.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

even with our bot, some little frame-bot was getting in our face while we were gathering and delivering balls, thought they had us boxed in the corner, and with our triwheels we just ran right over it

got it on video - didnt realize what had happened till I looked at the tape

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

along this topic (although it may be a little off-track) I noticed more and more teams are modfiying their hook to make it more foolproof. At chesapeake very few teams had to really try to get their hook off, but at Philly many had to stick poles up to remove their hook. I know we, for one, had more trouble getting it off than on. It took a guy on a ladder 5 minutes to get it down, but if it took him that long I guess we aren't coming down anytime during competition :P

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I dont know if they were disqualifying teams for tipping bots over

I saw one match where a team was trying to cap a goal, and the other came over and rammed it in the side, knocking it right over

im not sure, but I think they were disqualified for that match - I thought they had more points but they lost

but I didnt hear any matches where the announcer said a team was disqualified for tipping a bot intentionally.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

One more thing as far as defense goes... A lot of this years robots were built for finesse because they game called for them to be able to do so many different things. Without the great strategy and defense that 177 played keeping robots away from the bar (because we couldn't hang ourselves) we would never have been able to win. However, there was a big price to be paid for playing such violent defense. Anyone watching the philly finals knows that we had a lot of problems with breaking our basket among other things that were quickly repaired, but will need to be further tweaked at nationals to get back to 100%. We actually managed to break a weld on our conveyor, pull our kicker roller out of its bearing, AND sheer the tube on part of our basket TWICE all during finals. It would have been a lot less work for us if we could have just let our oppenents hang, and then also hung ourselves and won that way.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Well i was at BAE. Out whole objective their was defense and and hanging...it was successful for us....but i looked around and not many other teams did this....alot of teams tried to score high......with this years game it seems that winning is more important than points....i think it was once said: Winning is winning...whether you win by a mile or an inch...its still winning.

-Pat

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

that wasnt the case at Buckeye - only one team was undefeated, 7:0, the next top 4 were 6:1

and the next 14 were 5:2 - so your points (the other teams points) decided who got to fill the bottom 3 teams of the top 8, and being the second seed is more desireable than being the 5th.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

The best defense I saw was when that little robot was chasing 67 all over the field and just wouldn't leave them alone and they lost the match because they kept getting crawled on.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Here's why I started the thread....I've always subscribed to the saying "The best defense is a good offense". BUT, when you know your offense isn't as good as the other team's offense, why aren't more teams switching to defense (if for no other reason than to give their alliance partner a chance to score)? In most professional team sports, all things being equal, a good defense generally beats a good offense in the long run.....

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

the one that was bouncing around like its wheels were only held on by one remaining screw? that was funny to watch - the bot was like Daffy Duck gone berzerk on the field

Wooop woop wooop woop woop!

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I also think it was a lot more obvious last year.....When you saw your opponent build a stack of 7, there was only one reaction - knock it down! (duh!) Even though the game is more diverse this year, the reaction should still be the same! When you see that your opponent can score big, STOP THEM!

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

We've been saying this since day 1.
As a few have seen... our robot was designed with strong defense as one of it's primary functions. We've also got some offensive moves, but it's always nice to be able to fall back on a strong, defensive strategy without worrying about damaging your robot.

See you in Atlanta... ;)

John

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

teams that are playing defensive in all their matches are going to have low match scores for all their matches

teams that are playing offensive are going to have high scores

the ones that can play their strategy consistantly will win most of their matches

but at noon on saturday, the ones that focused on scoring, and let their opponent also score, will be placed higher in the seeding list.

so where are the defensive teams this year? down around 15 or 20 on the results list :^)

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I wouldn't make the harsh generalization that defense-oriented teams place low on the seeding list - our team plays a lot of defense. Many of our rounds involve getting a few points, playing near-total defense, and then proceeding to hang. We seeded 1st at NYC. From what I've been seeing, the teams that could effectively stop the good herders and the good multipliers were the ones that got far.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

its not harsh, its statistics - if you lose one match then you fall from the 7:0 tier down into the 6:1 tier - and if you have been playing defensively (not letting your opponent score) you will fall all the way to the bottom of it.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

If anyone saw the Arizona regional, in Quarterfinals and Semifinals we played defense. It worked quite well, because our alliance was good at offense :)

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Why aren't teams playing more defense?

First of all, defense doesn't look sexy. Many people will think, if your robot consistently goes out and stops your opponents from scoring anything, that your opponents were ineffective, not that you were very effective.

I've also seen some good defensive teams "lock into" their offensive game plan. Many teams who could be winning through playing effective defense are dropping their defense in favor of getting their scoring mechanism working. In other words, when their scoring mechanism is not working, they play defense and win matches. As soon as the mechanism comes back on line, they drop everything to go execute a score, and usually lose.

It will be interesting to see if teams at Championships continue to play the "let's get a high score" philosophy. If so, the alliance which can consistently score the most points will win CMP. Which means that CMP will be fairly predictable in terms of outcome. Ie. you'll just have to look at a teams scoring average and you'll know who is ultimately going to win.

However, if a team in the top eight realizes that they cannot outshoot the best shooter in the division and gambles on a combined offensive/defensive strategy, you may see an unlikely set of teams playing in the Championship match.

Another possible outcome is that a defensive robot goes undefeated (and they pretty much have to if they want to make it into the top 8). This is actually a fairly realistic possibility at CMP, where a defensive bot can be paired with a good offensive bot in every match. If this happens, a defensive bot in the top eight can easily pick two very good offensive alliance partners. If the rest of the field fails to realize that offense + defense is better than offense + offense, the surprise value alone may send some very good alliances back to the pits, wondering, "Why did we only score 30 points in that match?"

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

at the buckeye regional only one team was undefeated in the seeding rounds, and they were focused on scoring points and pretty much left the other teams alone

they seeded 1st, and in the QF's they set the new high score in the nation 220:140

BTW - they finished regional champions too.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Screw the statistics... play the match SMART.

(This is a greatly simplified situation that I'm going to use to prove a point....)
Let's say I can score 4 balls a match, my partner can score 8 balls a match.
We are against a team that can score 20 balls a match, and their partner can score 6 balls a match.

Strategy dictates that I stop the "20 ball" team from scoring, such that my "8 ball" partner beats their "6 ball partner".

Why would we lose 26-12 when we can potentially win this thing with some good defensive play.
This simplified analogy also applies to this years game.


When you are against an offensive powerhouse, and don't have enough "fire power" to win the match in a straight blow for blow... stop them from bringing their big guns to bear. (whew... an analogy and a metaphor in the same post?!?)

Though I suppose... while there are those who argue "Defense is cheap" I argue... "Defense is strategy". Play the game.

I've argued over and over that this year's game is going to be won by versatile alliances, that are able to play every aspect of the game (strong offense in all parts of the game), and adjust their strategy to what is in front of them. Defense will be an important tool on their belt. But... time will tell if I'm right.

John

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Yes.
Very well said.
I was trying, but didn't express it as well as you.
:)

John

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

the reason defense is a risk is while you are busy trying to stop the other side from scoring 10 more points, YOU might be the one that ends up getting tipped over, having a cable ripped out, having your arm damaged, so when you try to hang or cap or whatever you do to score points, you cant

and you lose

our bot was designed to herd balls and to cap the goal as our 1 and 2 plan - we used the stock drivetrain from FIRST with a top speed of 5fps with custom triwheels

when you saw us poking along slow picking up balls we looked like an easy target - but when other bots tried to get in our face we pushed them out of the way, or drove right over them

if you did not build a bot that can outscore your opponent head to head, dont assume you can push them around either - and if you get frustrated and start ramming them you have a good chance of finding yourself disqualified for tipping or intentional damage.

BTW - our team played to score points - we were finalists at Pittsburg and semifinalists at buckeye.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Our team played a strong offensive game in the quals, with random uses of defense. Then we played a tight defensive game in the elims.

We WON Long Island.
What's your point? ;)

edit:
I don't mean to sound harsh. My point is that arguing "we play offense and we did well" is no argument at all... There are a variety of strategies to play this game. To rule one out may be prove a fatal mistake.

I also don't mean to come across as someone who is overly dependant on defensive play. We play a very mixed game, utilizing different strategies depending on the situation, and adapting to the match and opponents in front of us. As predicted early on... this is definitely a "coach's game" and it's been a lot of fun so far.

I can't wait to see how things play out in Atlanta.
/edit

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

whats my point? this:

21 229 Clrksn/Mssna/SlmRvr 4-5-1

you placed 21st out of 36 teams and you lost more matches than you won.

at buckeye we were:
16 578 Gleason-Fairport HS 5-2-0

16th out of 60 teams, and only lost 2 matches.

thats my point - once you get into the elimination rounds then the game is win at all costs - but first you gotta get there.

Getting kinda personal, aren't we?
 

I don't think that's much of a point either.
You weren't there, and don't know the circumstances of our losses, or how the matches/regional played out.

What you SHOULD note, is that we DID make the finals.

I never said offense is bad, I'm just saying completely ruling out defensive play (as it seems you have advocated in this thread) will come back to bite you. Or perhaps... you're robot is so completely undefendable you don't have to worry about this?

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Actually, we dropped down to the platform to try and push back, and then when we raised ourselves up, 306 was above us. When we pulled up, they came up with us. They had a solid arm, so when they came up, their hook was above the bar, and they fell off.

We hung in every single round. We'd deliver our hook and then play king of the platform. Seemed to work out well.

Re: Getting kinda personal, aren't we?
 

then by your own logic, winning the LI regional doesnt prove your position either

?!

so why did you post it in defense of your argument?

we did too - at pittsburgh, and the semifinals at buckeye where we were picked in the first round by the 4th seed

ok now you lost me completely - if the winning and losing results of your team is not the best measure of the success of your strategy

then what is?!

Re: Getting kinda personal, aren't we?
 

I posted it to show you the other side of things...
To prove the point that your argument was flawed.

I was just trying to show that defense is a viable strategy, and ruling it out is foolish.

But now that you've driven circles around me logically...
I guess I have to admit you must be right.
I think I'm done with this thread.
I admit defeat.

Good Luck.

John

edit:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=13819
For those interested... I was reminded of this thread.
/edit

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Ken,
I absolutely agree with what you are saying here.

John and I are arguing something very differently, though.

Some robots are DESIGNED to play defense. They have beefy, agile drive systems and mechanisms that allow them to vigorously interact, at least with a part of their robot, so that they do not sustain damage.

When I talk about a defensive bot, I am NOT talking about an offensive robot that is playing defense. I am talking about a robot that is specifically designed to play defense and which picked that strategy as its primary focus for the game.

Further, when I talk about DEFENSE, I am not necessarily talking about RAMMING.

One very common defensive maneuver has been to place a mobile goal in the ball chute. Another defensive maneuver might be to occupy a portion of the top platform and keep other robots off the top platform. Another defensive maneuver would be to park on the steps leading to the stationary goal so as to prevent capping.

I'm not sure about the team number (237?), but one team climbs onto the bar and drives along it so as to prevent other teams from hooking and climbing.

DEFENSE really means to occupy territory, either with your robot or a scoring artifact, so as to disrupt or delay another robot from executing their strategy.

When I say DEFENSE, I do not mean ramming, tipping, or intentionally damaging. I generally mean preventing, occupying, or containing.

That having been said, a robot which attempts to execute a "high objective" (capping the stationary goal, climbing the 6" steps, or extending a 10' arm to grab the bar) may end up tipping over as a result of "preventing." However, that is more a design flaw on the part of the offensive robot than an intention of the defensive robot.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

No... we're really not. :(

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

As a team that was taken out of the semi-finals in LA by 22's exceptional defense, I can see the worth of planning defense into your strategy.
We are a strong small ball herder and we likely have the best human player in First Frenzy (I do not exaggerate).
We beat our opponent in the first match of the semi’s 150 – 70.
22 came after us at the beginning of round 2 and we were less than ready for them. They tipped us right over. Our robot is unable to right itself so we were done for the match.
In the third round, 22 tried to tip us again but we were more prepared and didn’t allow it. We filled the goal with small balls and our alliance partner, 968, brought over the doubler to cap. 22 went after them. We got in the way so that 22 couldn’t tip them and our alliance partner had to take a trip all the way around the platform to give capping another shot. We were trying to tangle up 22 so they couldn’t go after 968 but they were just too quick. 22 got to them and picked the doubler ball out of 968’s grabber just as time expired to win the round and take us out of contention.
Yep! Defense works!

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I've seen this game from the beginning as the winning teams will be the one that uses the alliances to the best ability. Sometimes you will have subpar offensive robots working with you that could best be utilized in defense. No, you won't get amazingly high scores but you won't lose either. And a win is a win in my book.

From watching regional, specifically the St. Louis Regional, I've seen times where one of the alliances was better used at stopping the other from scoring as many points while the other team scored points. More than anything I am super impressed by these team that do take on the defensive role and those are the kind of team that I would love to have on my alliance. To become that team you have to forget your pride and do what is best for the alliance. I kind of find the defensive team like this sexy because it makes the game exciting too.

Too say you can play a pure offensive game and do well is true (take for example the KC Chiefs) but it won't win you championships. Defense is a extremely potent tool when utilized to the right extent in this game. No alliance can be purely defensive and expect to do well. But the right mix of these can make for great alliances and great matches.

Trying to scare people from playing defense is just wrong and boring and limits who can compete to win.

As to what is better, who knows. I would love a match between a good offensive alliance and a good offensive team with a good defensive team.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I dont think there is anything wrong with playing defensively in the elimination rounds, as long as you are not mixing it up to the point where your bot gets damaged, or you forget that you MUST score points yourself to win

but in the qualifying matches focusing on defense is a mistake -it will knock you down in the rankings

in general I have seen more teams playing defensively in the elim rounds - which indicates that most teams understand all this

I think the fact that the national high score (220) happened during a quarterfinal at buckeye only shows that 4 exceptional bots were on the field in that match - all 4 bots were on the bar, and small balls were scored and goals were capped.

but teams are being defensive in the playoffs.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I agree with John that you have to know when you are beat offensively. Sometimes you just go against teams that can score more points than you. I do not agree that you shouldn't play defense in qualification. I think it comes down to picking your battles well.

Too many teams are going out onto the field just expecting to score as many points as they can and win. Well when you are playing against an alliance who can score 200+ points and your alliance can barely break 150, it's time to play some defense. Most teams score FAR less points if you just get in their way a little.

In AZ team 60 was scoring 100+ points per match on their own. Team 1011 had a simple swerve drive robot. 1011 stuck on 60 the whole match, they kept them from hearding, they kept them from capping and they kept them hanging. Could 1011 have outscored 60? NO WAY! but they stopped them from scoring a ton of points, and showed other teams that they had the ability to stop big scorers (they got picked by the second alliance).

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Basically, we have "played to win" this year, and let the points fall where they may. If you end up 10-0-0, or 9-1-0 in the Q matches, you are going to be in good shape, even if your opponents' ave score is zero. Our primary offence has been to hang every match, and we have used various bits of defense to reduce ball scoring and hanging by our opponents. So far, though, we have not faced alliances capable of scoring 200+ points in a match, as will be the case at Atlanta.

It is now going to be a more complex thing to come up with a winning strategy, when we will start seeing super ball scorers. When 210 and 220 points are scored, as in some matches at Cleveland and Evanston, two robots hanging and a few balls in an uncapped goal obviously isn't going to get it. If two robots like our very good hanger, but without ball collecting capability, are on the same alliance, we will have to have a very offensive defense to beat teams who can score and cap 15 balls and whose partner can hang.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I think that was a good example of why your alliance needs to be flexible. 1127 and 22 were big ball robots that could hang. 330 hangs, defends the bar, and keeps the doubler off the stationary goal. The plan was to have 330 hang and defend the whole match while 1127 and 22 switch out and play offense. That worked fine in the quarterfinals, but when they came up against 991's alliance, it was apparent that since 330 wasn't being effective at keeping the doubler off, and 1127 and 22 weren't being effective at hanging, they had no chance to outscore 991's alliance.

So, for the second match of the semi finals and on, 22 played defense on the opposing robots. They had a very good drive train: 6 wheels, 4 motors, shift on the fly. They were quite effective at stopping everyone in the semifinals, because they only had to concentrate on 1 robot at a time. 991 when they were pushing balls, and 968 when they were putting the doubler on.

When it came to the finals, though, that strategy broke down. Both 69 and 980 could handle the doubler, and both could hang well. So, 22 could harass 1, but not both, and the other one was always scoring. 330 couldn't effectively keep 2 robots off the bar at the same time, and that's why they lost in 2 rounds in the finals.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

You are crazy. This is ridiculus. There is noooo reason to play defense in this year's game. None. Just let those ball scoring teams do what they want.

"... these are not the droids you are looking for."

Andy B.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Haha, I see where Andy is coming from, being from a team with awesome small ball capabitlities, however I disagree entirely... I am so confident in our ability to score the small balls that I say LET teams try to defend against us, that way the opponents score will be minimal and when they realize we are gonna score the balls anyway it is too late for them... (once again I have to thank Andy for those transmissions, they make ball delivery oh so much easier)

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

not true. not true AT ALL. team 138 had to fight to win, and we fought well. though we didnt score as well as other teams, we won on defense and being able to hang.

i recall one match where we were allied with 1152 where all they did was ram another bot into the corner to keep them busy while we racked up a few points. we won.

another example: how did we lose the final match? 501 and 69 teamed up on 40 and flipped them. then they blocked BUZZ from doing anything, and then 501 left buzz to hang. match over. the statement that there is "no reason to play defense" is a product beyond brain damage, it is just plain ludicrous.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

The small ball bots are just scared. Thats all. Distraction :)

..just as I am doing now.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I've received some advice from my lawyer (;))...
He urges me to make the following statement.

If you are looking for defense in the finals and end up seeded... you can look to 229. Among our OFFENSIVE capabilities... we've got some defense up our sleeve. Surprise, surprise.

John

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I have to completely agree with Eric and John in the sense that you have to pick your battles wisely. There are always going to be bots out there that are designed efficiently, run like a dream, dominate every match in their sight, etc. For some teams, if they aren't big scorers or very reliable (or even if they just think it's within their best interests), defense could possibly be the way to go. Especially if you have a reliable partner who could score... what would be stopping you? Fear of not having an entertaining match for the audience?

Or what about teams that show off what they can do in the qualifications at the expense of the match? The '2x the loser's score' rule was disregarded at times so that teams could show their stuff... go out there and show how effectively they could block or do what they did best. A lot of times, capabilities can't be assumed - strut your stuff and don't let rankings matter.

There is no 'better' way to go. This argument, in some ways, is a bit out of hand and a bit offensive. Every match isn't determinable by simply offense or defense by any means - it's a combination of factors. Reliability of robots, skill of drivers, limitations of robots, timing, partners, opposing teams, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on. You can attempt to simplify matches into black and white, but offense will get you nowhere if an arm falls off while capping; defense won't win the game if you aren't very good at it.

Strategy is strategy. That's why it exists, and that's why it's used match after match. Play the game for what it is, don't oversimplify it.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Yeah... I remember a particular match at SLR where I think it was the prank monkeys..could be wrong.. got in a battle to stop one of the better hangers from making it to the bar. Whatever team that was..still thinking prank monkeys..kept them from getting to the platform the whole match and the alliance won because of that.

Defense gives every team to compete and levels out the playing field for teams with less resources. If you read at least part of the archived thread mentioned earlier, especially Jason and Bill's parts you will see this. When there is no defense the best robot with the most resources win.

BTW- they said build robust. They expected defense win they came up with this game. The lack of offense last year has left some weary about defense but FIRST can't progress in its goals without the excitement that defense brings to this competition.

Also, I in no way support team intentionally tipping, ramming, entangling, or damagin other. That has been outrageous at point this year and I personally think the refs should do more to get rid of these actions.

And to stay on everyone's good side. I appreciate everything all the volunteers, including refs, do for us. You all should be proud of the jobs you have done and please come back next year.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Unfortunately we fell for your Jedi mind tricks at MWR and paid for it. We didn't realize that we had no chance at outscoring the high-powered alliance of 269/45/930 and lost a couple of close matches. Had we played some defense and stopped the 45 machine from feeding what seemed like dozens of balls to the HPs and capping the overflowing goal we may have had a chance. As John has already said in this thread, it all comes down to strategy. Realize when you're outgunned and when you can't keep up in a high scoring match and play some defense instead. Slow down the flow of small balls, prevent the goal from being capped, and hope you have enough points to squeak out a victory.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

If we are allied WITH TechnoKats, that sounds like a great idea. If we are AGAINST Team 45, we'll have no choice but to play great defense if we are to have a chance of winning the match.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

If you can, see if you can get ahold of some video from the BAE Competition in Manchester. There were quite a few matches where teams stole the x2 balls right at the end of the match and capped their own goals, or where some other teams negated well thought out strategies by pushing a ball collector away from the drop zone. Our team was mainly a defensive robot in these seeding matches and for the most part we tried to hold other robots off the ramp while our team mates scored. In our competition at least, the defensive robots usually ended up on top if they were teamed up with strong scoring robots or other defensive robots.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I feel the need to toss in my two cents here.

First off, I'm going to limit my discussion to the elimination rounds, because that's where defense really becomes a factor. (Although, with the consistency that FIRST has given us this year between the qualifiers and eliminations, it should extend to the qualifying rounds as well.) I think the main reason that there hasn't been much defense played is because teams are reluctant to admit that another team is going to outscore them. Most teams have designed their robots to play offense, so that's what they do. Unfortunately this is not the best option when playing against a team with superior scoring capabilities. It's not an easy thing to admit that another team is most likely going to outscore you. But doing so is the first step to employing a successful defensive strategy.

We would not have won the Long Island regional without the superior defensive play of team 229. Period. We never lost a match in which they played. Everytime they were on the field, they neutralized our most offensive opponent. This paved the way to victory.

This strategy was no fluke, one of the biggest reasons we picked 229 was because we knew how powerful their drive train and arm were. i.e. We picked them for their defensive abilities. It didn't matter that they weren't seeded high. (On a side note, Clarkson does have more than a few offensive moves, on another side note, Clarkson was the number 3 seed going into Friday night)

There are a lot of offensive juggernauts this year, teams 45, 60, 67 and 254 are a few that stand out. Instead of fighting an uphill battle of trying to outscore them, I think playing some carefully planned defense is a much easier solution. What's easier outscoring them or getting in their way? This is the question that needs to be answered when planning a match strategy.

That being said, just remember, for every strategy there is a counter-strategy. I know I'm planning for them, and I know most other teams are as well. The high scoring teams are going to be expecting that teams are going to try and play defense on them. They will be ready and armed with their own counter-moves.

This is why I love this game. It's like high speed chess with flashing lights and lots of noise.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Defense only comes in handy in the finals, but is qualifying, offsense works preety good. Some teams got smart, like 330, and would roll along the bar to defend it. This was very helpful during finals. Thanks 330. But defense is always the best offense.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Since we can't hang we sitck to our simple game plan the small goal. And we will defend that small goal at all cost. But if both opponets can hang then we use our plow to prevent them from getting on the platform. unless we want them to get on the bar and add 50 pts to our score if we know we have more points and our alliance is on the bar.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Here's my one liner:

"Defense wins championships"

Don't be too hard on yourself,Mike Soukup, we tried playing defense against 45 when it came to the big ball in eliminations and they would just "Air Jordan" over us to score. All 3 of our matches against them came down to stopping their big ball cap and we only succeeded one time. Look at QF3 match 2 on SOAP to see the air Jordan.

In this year's game you must do what you need to do (within the rules & GP) to win. Sometimes that is high scoring, sometimes that is defense. It applies for both qualifications and eliminations.

-Paul

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Paul, it was QF3, match 3.

Andy B.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

iI noticed the same thing when my team was on the field they spent all their time trying to block us insted of scoring but if they didnt block us we would just take their points from them so i dont know why they cant come up with a strategy where they do both score and defend

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

What?
Who are you, and what have you done with Andy Baker?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9764
"In my experience, it is really fun to play defense really well."

Ahh the irony. The defensive powerhouse becomes the offensive team everyone is gunning for. Score on. ;)

The revenge of TKO!

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

i would have to agree with paul. 234 found out in Chicago that we had the ability to be a defense machine. it was kind of exciting. because of our defense we were the only alliance to beat RUSH (27) in the prelims...as well as a few other notable teams. this hurt us a little I think because of a lack of loser points...but in the end...your ranking points don't mean anything unless you win the match.

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

Based on the Regionals and webcasts I've observed so far this year, I believe that the "underdog" alliances have a better chance of winning if they approach their alliance selections more "defensively" (which is why I started the thread in the first place).

If you are a 4th through 8th place seeded team, don't select a 3rd partner that has demonstrated hanging potential only 50% of the time. Select a partner that can play defense 100% of the time - with the intention of disrupting your opponents' game plan and giving you a better chance of winning the SECOND match of your round! Then, who knows what might happen in the rubber match!

Offense wins the first game of the match. Defense the second. Give it your all in the third! May the best alliance win...

Re: Where's the defense this year?
 

I have a pretty split opinion on this. We were an "underdog team", and I think we, like a lot of the other underdof teams were extemely good at doing a couple of things...just not these all capable super bots. We could knock the ball off in autonomus very well..and hang almost 100%, but in that time inbetween was our oppurtunity to play defence or herd balls. Looking back at some of our videos I think we could have changed our strategy and stayed in the finals by doing defense...but at the same time I wonder if that really would have been possible, because our defense would have consisted of trying to get the other teams not to cap their goals, and they probably could have prevented us from doing that.

So through all this rambeling..I guess the lesson we learned is to really examine what you do best...and stick with that. Don't all of a sudden try to play defense if you started out going for offense. (something we did)