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There are many examples of the powers granted by the Patriot act being used and infringing in ways that previously would have been considered illegal. Moores latest movie touches briefly on this, and has a few cases as examples. Some further research would be easy enough on your part, if this interests you. What worrys me are not the cases of infringement that we know about. It's the ones we don't. That is after all what the Patriot act allows for, violation of the 4th amendment with out any notice or record (among other things). In the good old days, back when that fourth item down on the bill of rights still had some meaning, a law enforcement agency would have to get a court to agree that someone's home needed to be searched or their phones tapped. These days, my library record could be searched, my phones tapped, my email scanned, my house searched, and all with out me ever knowing. I could be held in detention with out being charged or having legal counsel. And why? Well, Alvarenga (my last name) kinda sounds arabic to some (why I will never know). Seriously, that could be all the justification it would take. The Patriot act allows for gross violation of your civil rights with out anyone’s knowledge for little or no reason. Is it always abused? No, probably not. But it has, it is, and will be abused. Furthermore, I haven’t heard of one case were a terrorist was arrested because of information that could have only be gathered because of the Patriot act. Even the name annoys me. 'Call it the Patriot act and no one will be able to vote against it. How can you vote against something so patriotic sounding? Besides, if he does, that will just sound great in next years campaign against him!' And people call me cynical. -Andy A. |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
ok after multiple people asked me what i had said and that they would like to read what i had to say, i am deciding to repost it here. please do not get made at me or freak at me (in the chit chat forum) for reposting this, multiple poeple asked for it and i am just reposting it.
Please everyone take a minuet to read this post and try to understand what i am hoping can occur. I try to stay away from political topics and forums as much as i can. It hits home with many people who are involved with the discussions of the topics that are brought up, whether it be Bush with sending more "soldiers" into foreign countries for many reasons, or it be an issue of religion, personal views or ideas any of the candidates may have that sway you to vote or not vote for them. Thus this is why i am making this post here. After watching this thread be brought back to life over the past 4 days, i am going to ask for everyone to step back for a minuet. Take a step back, gather all your thoughts that you have about this and other issues with the all the recent political occurances, write up a post and then after you re-read it and make sure that is what you want up, then post it. It seems many of the past posts have been spur of the moment posts in response to what someone else said and then later on the poster wishes he hadnt posted it because it wasnt fully thought out. So please get all your thoughts organized and then post it here... Thanks for taking your time to read this and hopefully you will understand what i am trying to convay. |
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Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
Following Andy’s lead, here’s my background and here are my beliefs.
I grew up in a household where my parents co-owned (and still do) a law firm that specializes in consumer bankruptcy law. They represent debtors who have fallen behind on car payments, house/apartment payments, have overdue taxes, and many other forms of debt. Every since I began to reason my parents have told me about some of the clients they represent (not the names, just the unfortunate circumstances they have to deal with). Thanks to these stories I’ve felt extremely empathetic and sympathetic towards people who aren’t as fortunate as I have been. It’s always gut wrenching to hear about their latest client who has the screws tightened on them by one creditor or another, especially when it’s a case of predatory lending on the creditor’s part. I am a firm believer in both second chances, and of doing whatever I can to make homeless peoples’ day a little better. Those who know me know that I buy meals for homeless people I see, or even give them $10-20 if I don’t have the time to buy them food. I don’t care if they buy alcohol or drugs with the cash. Whatever gets them through another day, and makes them temporarily feel better than they normally do. I have no religious affiliation, and believe that I have no right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn’t do with their own body. That’s some of my reasoning for being pro-choice. Like Andy I strive to be self-reliant. I have major issues with asking other people to do me favors, as a few on these boards can attest to. I don’t use or own credit cards. I’ve heard too many horror stories from my parents about them, but in addition to those I just don’t believe in credit. It makes my life a little tougher, but I’m glad I don’t pay APR. I’ve got to get to bed soon, but I’ll post this now so that Andy doesn’t think I’m standing him up :P. I’ll post again or edit this one with more information later. |
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As you can see from what Bill writes and what I write, we are somewhat opposite in our politcal affiliations. However, at the same time, we are friends. We AIM each other often and we actually care about what each other are doing. I know that sounds amazing, how a liberal and a right-winger can be friends, but it is true. What is the old line from Oklahoma (it's a musical, for you culture-deprived people)....? "Oh, the farmer and the cowhand can be friends, la la la..." Andy B. |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
Mr. Andy Baker That’s great to point out. I lean pretty far to the left yet I have many friends that have the exact opposite view. I think the core of politics is a lot like the core of FIRST- it all comes down to people, and I think this is important to remember.
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Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
I have to agree with the posts of Andy Baker and MattK. I myself have many friends who are conservative, but I'm not going to leave them just because of their political affiliation. In fact, it makes it even more interesting because we will have the occasional political debate which really just adds onto the friendship.
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Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
haa haa-- a lovely poll on this subject matter-- if i could vote and i wish i could but i can't-- but to those who are voting-- good luck with choosing u'r vote-- just make sure that u do go out and vote
enjoy!! (hopefully this time florida will get it right now ;) wasn't my fault last time) |
Re: Mr. Baker's initial comments
I'm going to divide this post into two pieces. First off I have to reply to Mr. Andy Baker. I can see that he is a conservative. However I think we should all question whether Bush is a conservative in the true what republicans are supposed to stand for sense, which seems to be the view Mr. Baker shares. What have republicans typically stood for? Small government, less government intervention in peoples lives, and fiscal conservativeness.
Okay 1) Small Government - Mr. Baker says that he is for small government and so he will vote for President Bush. However President Bush's administration and congress is responsible for creating the largest government bureaucracy EVER, the Homeland Security Department. 2) Less government intervention in people's lives - The patriot act. Here is a law that allows the government to look into the lives of average Americans, you or eye, in ways we never dreamed would be possible. They can wiretap my internet connection and phone, search my home (without my knowledge), and obtain a list of the library books I read. All of this mind you can be done without and judicial oversight through a http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=13246&c=206]"National Security Letter."[/url] Essentially the FBI drafts up one of these letters and away they go. 3) Fiscally Conservative - The national deficit has skyrocketed under Bush. When Clinton left office the government was projecting surpluses!! Now we are looking at the largest federal deficit in American history. Even the GAO is raising red flags. So much more fiscal conservatives. I would suggest that the republican part has abandoned their traditional platform and morphed into something new and frankly alarming. Deficit spending is good, spying on Americans is good, and more bureaucracy is good. These doesn't sound like the type of republicans that Mr. Baker seems to be longing form. |
Re: Why Kerry is the canidate of FIRST
Now for why I think that John Kerry is the best, most “FIRST Friendly” candidate. From the outset of his candidacy John Kerry has made his views on the importance of science and technology in driving American forward very clear. Just recently he was endorsed by 48 past winners of the Nobel Prize. Many here are interested in perusing a career in science perhaps even the medical or biotechnology fields. If George Bush stays president the few remaining stem cell lines in this country might not be of any use at all by the time you arrive on the job. John Kerry has endorsed stem cell research and recognizes it for what it is one of new frontiers of sciences which American should be at the forefront of. In addition his call for energy independence will also serve as a catalyst for hundreds of thousands of new jobs. America has a great history of engineering our way out of products and the energy crisis that we face in this country should be no different. In addition American cannot continue to be the leader in science and technology with out a work force that is also the best on the planet and John Kerry’s plans on education and getting more people to college are equally bold and aggressive. We need a president who is willing to challenge the status quo, not be content with it. I firmly believe that John Kerry is that president.
I consider myself a democrat because I find it unacceptable that we are the richest most prosperous nation in the world but still have a sub-par education system, 1000s of children who do not get the chance at college, and hundreds of thousands of people who starve in the streets at night…in the richest most powerful country on the planet this is unacceptable. We have the means and frankly the obligation to help lift people up if you are well off and prosperous that’s great and you earned it but it is wrong for you to earn it on the backs of those who are not as fortunate. |
Re: Mr. Baker's initial comments
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You hit the nail on the head. I am not happy with Bush and the above things that you have pointed out. What ever happened to worrying about our deficit? sheesh! You forgot to mention the prescription drug bill that gives cheaper drugs to even the wealthy seasoned citizens. The big question is "what would Gore have done?" My guess is that the economy would have been even worse, since Bush gave it a kick start with our tax credits for families (my liberal brother called it a bribe for Bush's vote - heh). I am in a quandry about who to vote for. Most likely, I will vote for Bush, but I would like to have a new candidate. Last time I felt this way, it was 1992 and our choices were Bush, Clinton, and Perot. I voted for Perot. Heck, he got 20% in Indiana that year. Andy B. |
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Vote Nader. Just as long as it isn't Bush. I really liked McCain a lot and thought he could be the next great leader, but look who we got instead. Quote:
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Bush
1. There is nothing wrong with our economy – except in the eyes of those who traditionally add nothing to it. 2. Right now there are an estimated 5,000 insurgents who've crawled out from under their rocks and are raising hell in Iraq. I wonder where they'd be raising hell were it not for GWB. I am sure that, unless we adopt the French-ativities, they will run out of bad guys way before we run out of bullets. 3. UBL is either dead or hiding in a cave, as are tens of thousands of Taliban and Al Qaeda. Meanwhile, Afghan women are allowed an education. Afghans are about to vote. Libya has admitted to their WMD’s. Iran is blowing smoke. Etc. and ect. 4. Eleven years (1776 - 1787) passed between our Declaration of Independence and the signing of the Constitution. Today, we have Kerry-ites complaining about some kind of quagmire. 5. Kerry’s mentor/fellow_Taxsachusetts_Senator/supporter, who drove his secretary off a Chappaquidick bridge and (opinion) left her there to drown while his toadies planned the cover-up (/opinion), has the gall to question the President’s character. 6. When the Vietnam vets returned, they were spit upon by the ignorant at the airports and by Kerry in the Senate. 7. I was in high school when JFK got us into Vietnam. I was in a barracks in Gulfport, Mississippi when LBJ appeared on TV and bailed on us. I was in my living room last month as Kerry “appeared for duty”, but ran away from his record in the Senate. So, I’ve seen the Democrats show up, and then I’ve seen them run away. 8. Who would Osama vote for? |
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As an individual who is too young to vote, and also not horridly experienced with politics and whatnot, I'm afraid at this point in the thread after hearing arguments I'm not feeling comfortable stating too many because I feel they will result in mere rebuttals without much consequence.
The only consideration I'd like to state is a support on the "Republicanism that individuals such as Mr. Baker don't support", as well as upbringing and why I believe how I do. I was brought up essentially European standard left, due to living in Italy for the 2 main early educational years of my life, and many of my friends currently reside in Europe. My chief concern is the name that America has made for itself, related or unrelated to the Bush / Kerry administrations. I support whichever candidate has the gumption to look at America from an objective eye and understand that the rest of the world does NOT see us as heroes on the forefront of technology and progressivism. An individual could place themselves on the republican ballot and have more liberal values than the democrat ballot. Many individuals I know can be quoted to say that American school systems are despicable. My friend Elizabeth and her husband moved back to Ireland with her husband after having children for fear of bringing them up in American school systems. Elizabeth and her husband are also very conservative as far as some views go (pro-life, anti stem-cell research due to cloning issue, anti homosexuality, among other things). Am I ignorant for honestly not caring where your budget lies? Everyone is too busy worrying about their own credit, deficit, appearance and upbringing to consider the same factors for those who may not even have the opportunity to vote because they can't afford transporation to the nearest legal office. If I supported George W Bush's policies, I would vote for him whether or not he was conservative or liberal. At the given moment I don't, and that's enough information. I don't mean to anger anyone, but to me politics are about personal beliefs, and it's painful to see any minority on these forums, whether conservative or liberal, be bashed just because of differing opinions. Thank you for reading. Eugenia |
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Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
::enters thread::
Let me start by saying I have not read much in this thread beyond a couple replys. Let me also say that this will be my first election in which I can vote (insert obligatory "w00t!" here). And I had my decision nailed down between Bush and (what was most likely to be) Kerry the moment I turned 18 last October. Answer's simple: neither. I'll be voting for an Independent (although not sure which). Gotta get to my reaons here. Reasons I'm not voting for Bush: Patriot Act (which so viloates the 4th ammendment), invading Iraq (say, where are those weapons of mass destruction?), destroying the budget (whatever happenend to that surplus?), the anti-gay wedding ammendment fiasco (I don't agree with that style of living, but they shouldn't be punished for living in the way they choose), and him destroying the space program (everybody who's taken basic science knows that you can't build a self-sustaining moon base. Now a self-sustaining Mars base...). My main beef with Kerry is that he's switched his position so many times. There are other things (including increasing gas prices, and the fact that other than his campaign, he hasn't been doing much of anything lately), but I won't go into too much detail. Essentially, Kerry is evil, just not as much. Now, given only those two choices, I'd take Kerry, only because he is that lesser of two evils. My point in this argument though is that is not the case. I can vote independent. Granted, Kerry will most likely win Rhode Island (we haven't voted Republican since Carter). And let's face it, one vote means nothing. It's the voice behind that vote that counts. That's the whole point of this thread. I'd suggest using it a lot if you want any actual change. Summing up: Independents are always an option, all polititians are evil, and VOTE no matter what. Keep flying, -Eddie ::exits thread:: |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
I will be taking part in my first election being able to vote.
I shall be voting for Bush. I agree with what he has done thus far and do not blame him for the way the economy is. If you watch - when Clinton got out the economy was starting to go down... Bush will have my vote. Also - I am arab-american and I do stand by Bush 100% for what he has done in Iraq. Saddam and his sons where evil men. |
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The Columbia tragedy has hindered the space program more than anything during Bush's presidency. Notice the world hindered - the space program is not "destroyed" nor do I think it will be for quite some time. :] |
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The U.S. unemployment rate has dropped to 5.6 percent, lower than the average during the 1990s. Growth is a robust 4 percent; inflation is low (partly because trade depresses prices). The Manufacturing Index is at its highest level since 1983. Kerry claims he’ll reward corporations who keep jobs here, or return them from overseas. His family should get in line first for that bonus; H.J. Heinz Co. operates 22 factories in the United States and 57 in foreign countries. Research estimates are that outsourced jobs will rise to 600,000 by 2005 -- out of a total of 140 million. Most all of those jobs are the ones that Americans find “dead end”. The companies save money, which they use to create more of the kinds of jobs that Americans will lower themselves to work. Back to deficit spending: If the Democrats get their European style national health care, then you ain’t seen nothing yet! And, as educated persons with the high-end jobs, they won’t care much to stand in line behind the crack heads. The Republicanism of tort reform is the only logical solution (sorry Jeffery Figer, etal) to our health care dilemma. My wife has worked at a hospital for over 30 years, and has never seen them turn anyone away. No, they don’t have right to get in first-come-first served, but they do get in. As for the rest: If someone thinks we can negotiate with terrorists, then they can do so at their front door. If they think the Europeans will assist us without exacting way more than a pound of economic flesh, then they have no sense of history. If they think the Syrians, Saudis, Iranians, and Afghans who poured over the borders to disrupt the democratization of Iraq would otherwise be asleep in their comfy little beds, then I remind them of the 19 who were in sleeper cells until they day they went to Paradise. Quote:
We could leave the Middle East - sit back and watch them tear themselves to pieces - where Osama goes, Muslims die. Then, with but one tribe left standing, we could settle it for once and for all. But that would mean the death of Islam, or the death all the other faiths. I'd rather see us attack the cancer than erradicate the afflicted. |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
20 Reasons Why Bush Is Bad:
By 'Rock Against Bush' Alblum... 1.) He refused to buy adequate body armor for our troops in Iraq. A study done by a defense consultant reveals that approximately 25% of casualties could have been prevented with better armor. 2.) Responsible for the highest US trade deficit EVER: $43.1 billion dollars. 3.) Bush Jr. gave his campaign contributors and strongest supporters $8 billion in contracts to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan. Corporations like Halliburton, Bechtel, Kellogg, Brown & Root, etc. Numerous scandals have been uncovered regarding these "friendly" contractors who are ripping off US tax-payers by overcharging for their services. 4.) Bush campaign shirts were made in Burma under sweatshop conditions. Interestingly enough, in 2003 Bush Jr. signed legislation banning products from Burma effective September 1st, 2003. 5.) He approved the sale of $20 million dollars worth of shackles, electro-shock technology, and other torture devices to countries that have been CONDEMNED FOR TORTURE. 6.) College tuition has increased 28% during the Bush Jr. administration. 7.) The Bush Jr. administration was told by over 60 influential scientists, including 20 Nobel Prize winners, that they are "Deliberately and systematically distorting facts- in the service of policy goals on the environment, health, biomedical research, and nuclear weaponry at home and aborad." 8.) He proposed a budget that would slash 40% of the funding for after-school programs. No child left behnind? THis decrease would cut off about 475,000 children. 9.) Bush Jr. authorized the use of cluster bombs and "Daisy Cutters" (the world's biggest non-nuclear bomb) in populated areas of Iraq. These have contributed to the deaths of OVER 10,000 innocent civilians, more than three times the number of casualties suffered in the tragic 9/11 attacks. NOTE: No Iraqis were involved in the 9/11 attacks. 10.) Richard Clarke (Chief Anti-Terrorism Advisor) and Paul O'Neilll (US Treasury Secretary) both testified that Bush Jr. was intent on invading Iraq within the first few days of his Presidency. Clarke claims that Bush Jr. ignored his warnings about an imminent al Qaeda attack. On September 12th, Bush Jr. instructed his staff to find a connection between al Qaeda and Iraq, and despite no connection ever being discovered (and against CIA's recomendation), he still chose to invade Iraq. NOTE: This has been confirmed by the 9/11 Commission. 11.) Although he still claims that fighting terrorism is his main priority, Bush Jr. slashed the FBI's requested counterterrorism budget by two-thirds. 12.) Bush Jr. has made it clear that in his next term he plans to appoint Supremem Court Judges who are against a woman's right to choose, and would effectively outlaw abortion on a NATIONAL level. 13.) Bush Jr. still has yet to attend a soldier's funeral and continues to steer the American public away from knowing about the casualties. He has done even less to acknowledge the over 18,000 troops that have been wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan. 14.) His administration illegally produced fake pro-Bush "news" spots for the Department of Health and Human Services. They went as far as to include phony journalists who praise Dubya's controversial Medicare Bill and they added a fake crowd to cheer the whole thing on. 15.) In an effort to give the appearane that Bush Jr. was creating more jobs, his administration tried to reclassify fast food emplyment as manufacturing jobs. These minimum wage jobs are nothing like real manufacturing jobs that provide benefits and pay $15/hour. 16.) His administration proposed the highest penalties in the world for indecent violations on our public airwaves. Up to $500,000 for saying something the FCC (which the public dosn't elect to office) deems offensive. 17.) He is a religious fanatic that belives in the apocalypes and that ONLY Evangelical Christians are eligible for the afterlife. Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and everyone that isn't in the Bush's flock are all doomed to Hell. 18.) The Treasury Department under the Bush Jr. assigned five times as many agents to investigate Cuban embargo violations as they did to track the financial resources of both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. 19.) Right before Christmas Bush Jr. cut overtime pay for over 644,000 employees who work over 40 ours a week. 20.) Against Colin Powell's advice, Bush Jr. chose not to recognize Afghanistan's statehood, therefor making it's people not protected by International Law and vulnerable to human rights abuses and torture. Up until that decision by Bush Jr., the US Military could boast a proud history of upholding the humane laws of the Geneva Convention. Spread the news.... |
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Wow, 20 reasons. I thought they had it covered with "Idiot Son of an (expletive deleted)" |
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Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
Hey now - this is getting a little ugly here...
Lets get this back on track ASAP before it's locked... :) |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
Neither Kerry nor Bush, Ralph Nadar is the real ticket this year. He is not greedy, he cares about what happens to not only this country, but what happens to the whole world. Not just the people in the world, but the physical world itself. He is going to enforce such laws that will limit large corporations that pollute the environment and that will limit the green house effect that has plagued the world, and it's only getting worse. Find all of his views at Vote Nadar
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Whatever happened to that good ole' Rock N' Roll? :] |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
In light of what is said, whatever happened to good ol' be civil when you talk to other people on Chief?
This whole "ugh! he's basing his political views on a punk band!" thing is a waste. The guy can post what he want, and as far as I could tell, he didn't sit there intending to insult anyone. As Matt said very eloquently, maybe get it back on track... Edit: Just to clarify, this post wasn't directed at insulting Ryan, which he seemed to gain the misconception of. I apologize for using his post as an example. This is general disgust of the whole fact that one little unique idea can throw everyone off about discussing rock bands instead of politics. Thank you. |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
The Story of The 20 & Me
by Joseph Matt It all started two weeks ago when my friend and I were shopping around for CDs. We looked and round and he showed me the Rock Against Bush alblum. I thought it was hilarious, and we listened to it on the way home. It was a good CD with bands like Green Day and Flogging Molly. I latter decided to buy the CD on my own and found the 20 list, so I decided to share it with you guys here. The 20 list was just in the booklet, I didn't know it was aphiliated with a bad already (NOFX) and I've never heard (both name and music) of theme before. I bought the CD because of my views and like it. It's foolish when a CD with a 20 list forms your platform. It's how you are raised and your experences that form who you are. Anyway, that's my .20 on that issue. |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
Incubus - Make Yourself
(how's that for on track ;) ) |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
As much as I dislike this thread, I figured I would supply the 40 other reasons..
http://www.pubarso.com/misc/rockagai...h/scan0004.jpg http://www.pubarso.com/misc/rockagai...h/scan0007.jpg |
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Kerry and Bush Singing. Quote:
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I'm not targeting the churches that are your small town church that has services every Sunday, I’m targeting the Multi-billion dollar church that still claims to need money "or Jesus will strike you down". These aren't good people and should defiantly not be tax exempt! They exploit the people that really believe that Jesus will strike them down if Trinity doesn't get their 98 Billion dollars they need so they can "spread the word" (or so Jan Crouch can get another face job and buy more make-up)
I think you need to investigate this "non-profit organization more" and look at Paul Crouch's son’s collection of rare motorcycles and the massive cathedral! |
Re: Kerry or Bush and why?
I am sorry for this - but as it has been stated earlier - you all have set a new low for the CD Chi-Chat. Will you not listen and just talk via PM or ignore what the previous post instead of provoking something/someone...
All right. You all will not learn. Brandon/moderator - this is my First Offical request to close this thread. It has gotten wwaayy off topic and don't believe it is possible to get it back. I wish for this thread closed... |
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