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-   -   Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27671)

Ryan F. 10-04-2004 17:15
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
How about diet caffine free mountain dew ;)

Brandon Martus 10-04-2004 18:05
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Maybe it could replace Ventures. Ventures, as we knew it, will probably not be back -- it will be a whole new game. I will bring up a lengthy discussion about what it should be (maybe Fantasy FIRSt, maybe something completely different .. ) after Atlanta.

Koko Ed 10-04-2004 18:09
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Martus
Maybe it could replace Ventures. Ventures, as we knew it, will probably not be back -- it will be a whole new game. I will bring up a lengthy discussion about what it should be (maybe Fantasy FIRSt, maybe something completely different .. ) after Atlanta.
Or we could incorporate aspects of Ventures into a version of Fantasy FIRST that rewards your selected team for the awards they win.

The Lucas 10-04-2004 19:10
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
I would like the draft to work like a live draft on Yahoo Fantasy games with the same type of interface.

Every entrant gets thier own Alliance webspace (could put it in public profile) that lists thier picks and teams. Everyone can visit other's Alliance webspaces. By clicking on someone else's picks or teams it brings up a trade window in which you can put yours and thier picks and teams on the table (balanced trades only there is no free agency) and click submit. Submit creates something like a PM to the other person. They can either accept or reject. If they accept, it sends somthing like a PM to the commissioner. The commisioner can either click execute to carryout the fair trade, or veto the unfair one of my 3rd round pick for your 1st rounder.

Before the draft you have a chance to prerank your selections (in a private part of your Alliance space like User CP) which defaults to a ranking system like JVN List (based on avg QPs or some other simple statistic, this is not ment to be definative).

Then on draft day. You go to the live draft area. It automatically cycles through the draft order, giving everyone 10 minutes max to pick. All the teams are separate into division in selection boxes. To pick all you have to do is click on the team you want and click draft. If time runs out on you then it picks from your preranked list.

Jeff Rodriguez 10-04-2004 20:36
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Definatly less competitors. Preferably, everyone would get 4 robots and 3 would count for a defined number of regionals and Nats. It's annoying having to pick every single team, since many of them, in the third round, aren't very good.

tkwetzel 10-04-2004 23:17
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
I also participate in Fantasy Nascar with some friends. I like the way that it is operated and would like to see it applied to Fantasy FIRST. In the begining, 6 people are placed in a league and given $100 for the auction draft. Then each person bids as much as they want (within the $100 total budget) for 4 drivers, if they are outbid, they can rebid higher or they can bid on someone else. The auction draft closes 24 hours after the last person joins. If the player does not have four drivers at the end of the draft, drivers are assigned starting at the top of the rankings (similar to JVN's rankings). Each player then has 4 drivers and each week, before the race, the player must choose 3 drivers to score that week. Trades are allowed, but once a team propses a trade and the other team accepts, it goes through a 24 hour pending period, where any other person in the league can veto it (would prevent powere houses). Only even trades are allowed (1 for 1, 2 for 2, etc.). All drivers that are not on one of the 6 team rosters is a free agent and players may trade one of their drivers for a free agent at any time except during competition when all transactions are closed. After someone picks up a free agent, the driver that he gets rid of is put back into the free agent list after 24 hours of not being on a team.

If anyone would like to go join to see what I am talking about, it is at www.nascar.com and you need to click on games and click on Nextel Ultimate Fantasy league. You need to sign up on the website to sign up for the game.

Joe Ross 10-04-2004 23:17
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
For different ways of breaking things up, I would suggest 3 divisions:

the no trade division
the fantasy only trade (you can only trade robots and picks, nothing tangible)
the no holds barred division

I also think you should limit the total number of people to less then half the number of spots, so that people actually have a chance to make a dream alliance.

Mike Ciance 10-04-2004 23:22
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
I think it would be interesting to have cylinders for the scoring objects. That would be so different from other years (at least that i have seen) because they would roll but not just in any direction like the balls do. Also they would not be as bouncy. I know the last tiem I had a game suggestion I was ridiculed for even thinking of my idea, but I think this one is much better. Tell me what you think.

tkwetzel 10-04-2004 23:25
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Another note about having fewer people with more teams to choose from, each person has to look at the teams carefully and decide on all 3 teams. This year, many people are winging it on the 3rd team, because most people do not know about many of the lower ranked teams. Because of this, I do agree a smaller field of competitors would be nice, but you could have multiple leagues to host more people. Each league would have it's own draft with all robots available.

tkwetzel 10-04-2004 23:29
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Quote:
I think it would be interesting to have cylinders for the scoring objects. That would be so different from other years (at least that i have seen) because they would roll but not just in any direction like the balls do. Also they would not be as bouncy. I know the last tiem I had a game suggestion I was ridiculed for even thinking of my idea, but I think this one is much better. Tell me what you think.
It is a great idea, but does not belong in this thread. This thread is for Fantasy FIRST suggestions, not suggestions for the actual competition. But I do believe that cylinders would be a great field/coring object.

Zzyzx 10-04-2004 23:50
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Reading this forum gave me an idea; similar to a method I used to draft Magic: The Gathering cards. It's called a point's draft. Everyone is gave a certain, equal number of points (does NOT have to be Mointain Dews) and all teams are set in a random ordor and hidden from the view of the participant. During the game, the teams get reveiled and go into certain slots, reprezenting a value for that team. The first team can either spend that amount of points on the team, or pass his turn, moving his coice to the bottom of the list. if the team is skipped, it moves into a lower slot, which represents a smaller amout of points, and the next team is revealed to the next player. Players can skip teams untill all slots are filled, after which they MUST choose one of the teams. This continues until all players have 3 teams.

Slots could range from ten to zero points. one variation to this, which might be a little too complicated for the Fantasy First is that when a team is in the zero slot, and it is left for a turn, it a cumilates a point, which would actually GIVE a point to the team that picks it. These points are given for every turn besides the first that that team is in the zero slot.

Zzyzx 10-04-2004 23:51
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
I know it sounds a little complicated, but it is...at least when you are trying to describe it in text.

Joel J 11-04-2004 00:08
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Ross
Lets put all of our suggestions for Fantasy FIRST next year in one thread, so that we can remember it next year.

My first suggestion is to have an "entry fee". This makes sure that only people serious about playing sign up. My suggestion of the entry fee is the list of your top 50 picks. That way, things can move a long easier, too.
(The length is a bit unexpected. Skimmers, prepare to exercise your gift.)

As the drafting process has been taking place for this year's fantasy, I have been thinking of a few ways of improving the system, integrating it with similar systems, etc. After a little while, these "would be suggestions" have come together to form an almost complete game. Ventures Online meets FIRST Fantasy.

The FIRST Fantasy league would begin 2 weeks before kickoff each year. Individuals are given a 6 week window to sign up. During this time the league would accept as many members as are interested. Once the sign up period has ended, the pre-round of competition would begin.

Before a league member can participate in the first round of competition, they would have to choose a STAR team. That is, from the list of 1000+ teams that would be registered for the FIRST competition, a league member would select one team that would be "stuck" with them for the rest of the season. The league member would accrue any fantasy points this team generates in addition to points gained through regular competition play. Should a league member choose to enter their STAR team as a pick for a regional competition (more on this process later) and the STAR team generates points, that league member would receive double the points for that team. There would be a ten percent limit imposed on STAR teams, in that, a single team cannot be STAR to more than 10% of league participants. Once the ten percent limit has been reached, the STAR team in question would no longer be available for selection in the pre-round. Selection of a STAR team is final. A league member would not be able to change their decision. Again, until a league member has chosen their STAR team, they would not be allowed to compete in the actual Fantasy league.

League members would be provided with a list of regional events and the teams scheduled to attend. In addition, league members would be provided with a list of FIRST awards to be given out. Based on this information, league members would choose 3 favorites for each first award, 3 favorites for number one seed, 9 teams they think would make it to the quarterfinals, 6 teams they think would make it to the semifinals, 3 teams they think would make it to the finals, and one team they think would win the competition. A ten percent limit would be imposed upon this selection process as well. Once a team is chosen by ten percent of league members for a specific award, they would no longer be available for selection.

Points would be awarded to league members in the following way:
4 points for every correct award winner (excludes performance based awards, such as regional champion, regional finalist, etc).
32 points if the number one seed is among the three favorites.
2 points for every correct quarterfinalist.
8 points for every correct semifinalist.
32 points for every correct finalist.
128 points for selecting the correct regional winner.

Remember, the STAR team would be an automatic additional entry into every category for any regional they attend.

League members would also accrue the total qualification points earned by their favorites for number one seed. So, for example if the three teams chosen have total qualification points of 200, 400, and 800, the selector would get an overall QP of 1400 for that regional. The system would then determine the total amount of qualification points earned by all teams at the regional (14400, for example) and from that information determine the percentage of total QP points earned by each selector. A league member would then get double this percentage value as fantasy points. In the case of the example given, the league member would earn 20 fantasy points (9.7222% * 2, rounded up). If the selector's STAR team is present at the regional used in this example, their total qualification points would also be counted. If the STAR team was chosen as a favorite for #1 seed, their total qualification points would be counted twice.

Before each regional competition begins (and after league members are no longer allowed to make selections for given regional), League members would be paired up with a randomly selected "foe." They would compete with each other for the equivalent of win credentials (Win [2] - Loss [0] - Tie [1]). The league member that earns the most points of the two foes is the winner. Should the two parties earn the same number of points, they get a tie. If any league member receives a total of 7 win points, they are automatically added to the waiting list for the playoffs (discussed later).

After each week's regional competitions, general statistics would be posted (award winners, QP points, etc) in an attempt to aid league members in making future picks. (In addition, a list of top 25 league members would be generated and each member on the list would be given a 4% "rich man's" tax. The total amount of points gained from these taxes would be distributed in randomly sized allotments to the bottom 25 league members.)

Regional competitions serve as a time for league members to accrue fantasy points, win points, and knowledge of FIRST robots. When the regional competitions are over, the system would rank each league member and would allow the top 50 finishers to participate in the playoffs. An additional 25 teams would be chosen from the waiting list (more than 7 win points). If there aren't any teams on the waiting list, then the playoffs would be capped at 50 participating members.

The remaining league members would participate in shadow playoffs. Members would be split up into an arbitrary number of groups of a size no greater than 75 members. Within these groups, the league members would carry out the mechanics of the actual playoffs, it just won't be the official Fantasy FIRST playoffs.

A PowerList would be generated by the system before the draft process. Essentially, it would rank each robot scheduled to appear at the Championship Event according to their performance at the regional level. Robots would generate points, in the same way a league member would, based on their performance at a regional competition. These points would then be divided by the number of regionals the robot competed in. A robot would get:

4 points for every non-placement award it wins (Xerox Creativity, Motorola Quality, etc.)
32 points if it is the number one seed at a regional.
2 points for making it to the quarterfinals.
8 points for making it to the semifinals.
32 points for making it to the finals.
128 points for winning a regional.
2 * (itsQualificationPoints/QualificationPointsAtRegional) * 100

The FantasyDRAFT would take place on a scheduled day after the last regional competition. Members would each receive 2 minutes to make their choice. If they have not made a choice after two minutes, then the system would look at the list of teams they have provided. If a robot that appears on the list is still available, then the system would select that robot for the member. If all robots on a league member's list are taken, then the system would default to the PowerList to make a selection.

The order in which players select in the first round of a draft would be determined by their rank compared with other players (fantasy points). Therefore, the number one ranked player at the start of the playoffs would get the first draft pick. The second round draft order would be randomly generated by the system. For the third round of the draft, the order of selections would be determined by the statistical average strength of the first and second round pick of each participant. That is, the robots chosen during the first and second round would each have a statistical strength (number used to rank the team on the PowerList) and they would be averaged together to determine the power of their owner. The owner who has the weakest statistical strength would get the first pick of the third round and the owner with the strongest advantage would get the last pick. If two owners have the same strength, then the system would decide, randomly, the order in which they pick relative to each other. So, for example:

First round picks:
1. Joel Johnson - 45
2. JVN - 254
3. Koko Ed - 33
4. Andy Baker - 229
5. Dave Lavery - 67

Second round picks:
1. Koko Ed - 343
2. Andy Baker - 292
3. JVN - 71
4. Joel Johnson - 217
5. Dave Lavery - 191

Robot strength sheet:
1. 229 ;) (232.34)
2. 45 (200.34)
3. 33 (200.34)
4. 254 (198.45)
5. 67 (198.35)
6. 292 (198.25)
7. 71 (171.23)
8. 343 (150.33)
9. 191 (145.34)
10. 217 (127.65)

Strengths:
1. Joel Johnson - 45 + 217 (200.34 + 127.65) = 163.995
2. JVN - 254 + 71 (198.45 + 171.23) = 184.84
3. Koko Ed - 33 + 343 (200.34 + 150.33) = 175.335
4. Andy Baker - 229 + 292 (232.34 + 198.25) = 215.295
5. Dave Lavery - 67 + 191 (198.35 + 145.34) = 171.845

(Strengths shown above for each robot are random numbers used to illustrate how the system works, don't let the decimals fool you :))

Third round pick order:
1. Joel Johnson
2. Dave Lavery
3. Koko Ed
4. JVN
5. Andy Baker

Once the draft has concluded, playoff participants would be free to trade with each other. However, each league member would only be allowed 5 trades and each trade has to be approved by the commissioner (whoever is running this thing). Also, each trade has to involve the exchange of two robots. As in, player X has to give player Y a robot, if player Y gives player X a robot.

In the playoffs, players would not be randomly paired up with a "foe." Each robot in the playoffs would earn points based on their performance at the championship. Fantasy points would be distributed as follows:

4 points for every non-placement award won (Xerox Creativity, Motorola Quality, etc.)
32 points for being the number one seed.
2 points for making it to the division quarterfinals.
8 points for making it to the division semifinals.
32 points for making it to the division finals.
128 points for being division champion.
256 points for making it to the grand finals.
512 points for being national champion.
2 * (itsQualificationPoints/QualificationPointsInDivision) * 100

To determine the FIRST Fantasy League Playoff Champion, playoff participants would be ranked based on the average number of fantasy points their robots have earned. The participant with the highest number of average robot points wins. Winners of each shadow playoff group would be compared with each other, and the participant with the highest number of fantasy points would be given the title of FIRST Fantasy League Wannabe Playoff Champion (;)). Once again, remember, each player would get the points earned by their STAR team, should they be competing at the Championship event. And due to the fact that players are ranked based on an average number of fantasy points earned, their STAR team could bring their average either up or down. If a playoff participant's STAR team does not qualify for the Championship Event, then the participant would get the average fantasy points earned by the three robots on their alliance.

Awards:
1. FIRST Fantasy League Playoff Champion
2. FIRST Fantasy League Playoff Top Ten
3. FIRST Fantasy League Wannabe Playoff Champion
4. FIRST Fantasy League Top Ten
5. Most Wins during pre playoffs (can be a "multi-way-tie")

So.. what do you think of that?

Koko Ed 11-04-2004 00:15
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel J.
(The length is a bit unexpected. Skimmers, prepare to exercise your gift.)

As the drafting process has been taking place for this year's fantasy, I have been thinking of a few ways of improving the system, integrating it with similar systems, etc. After a little while, these "would be suggestions" have come together to form an almost complete game. Ventures Online meets FIRST Fantasy.

The FIRST Fantasy league would begin 2 weeks before kickoff each year. Individuals are given a 6 week window to sign up. During this time the league would accept as many members as are interested. Once the sign up period has ended, the pre-round of competition would begin.

Before a league member can participate in the first round of competition, they would have to choose a STAR team. That is, from the list of 1000+ teams that would be registered for the FIRST competition, a league member would select one team that would be "stuck" with them for the rest of the season. The league member would accrue any fantasy points this team generates in addition to points gained through regular competition play. Should a league member choose to enter their STAR team as a pick for a regional competition (more on this process later) and the STAR team generates points, that league member would receive double the points for that team. There would be a ten percent limit imposed on STAR teams, in that, a single team cannot be STAR to more than 10% of league participants. Once the ten percent limit has been reached, the STAR team in question would no longer be available for selection in the pre-round. Selection of a STAR team is final. A league member would not be able to change their decision. Again, until a league member has chosen their STAR team, they would not be allowed to compete in the actual Fantasy league.

League members would be provided with a list of regional events and the teams scheduled to attend. In addition, league members would be provided with a list of FIRST awards to be given out. Based on this information, league members would choose 3 favorites for each first award, 3 favorites for number one seed, 9 teams they think would make it to the quarterfinals, 6 teams they think would make it to the semifinals, 3 teams they think would make it to the finals, and one team they think would win the competition. A ten percent limit would be imposed upon this selection process as well. Once a team is chosen by ten percent of league members for a specific award, they would no longer be available for selection.

Points would be awarded to league members in the following way:
4 points for every correct award winner (excludes performance based awards, such as regional champion, regional finalist, etc).
32 points if the number one seed is among the three favorites.
2 points for every correct quarterfinalist.
8 points for every correct semifinalist.
32 points for every correct finalist.
128 points for selecting the correct regional winner.

Remember, the STAR team would be an automatic additional entry into every category for any regional they attend.

League members would also accrue the total qualification points earned by their favorites for number one seed. So, for example if the three teams chosen have total qualification points of 200, 400, and 800, the selector would get an overall QP of 1400 for that regional. The system would then determine the total amount of qualification points earned by all teams at the regional (14400, for example) and from that information determine the percentage of total QP points earned by each selector. A league member would then get double this percentage value as fantasy points. In the case of the example given, the league member would earn 20 fantasy points (9.7222% * 2, rounded up). If the selector's STAR team is present at the regional used in this example, their total qualification points would also be counted. If the STAR team was chosen as a favorite for #1 seed, their total qualification points would be counted twice.

Before each regional competition begins (and after league members are no longer allowed to make selections for given regional), League members would be paired up with a randomly selected "foe." They would compete with each other for the equivalent of win credentials (Win [2] - Loss [0] - Tie [1]). The league member that earns the most points of the two foes is the winner. Should the two parties earn the same number of points, they get a tie. If any league member receives a total of 7 win points, they are automatically added to the waiting list for the playoffs (discussed later).

After each week's regional competitions, general statistics would be posted (award winners, QP points, etc) in an attempt to aid league members in making future picks. (In addition, a list of top 25 league members would be generated and each member on the list would be given a 4% "rich man's" tax. The total amount of points gained from these taxes would be distributed in randomly sized allotments to the bottom 25 league members.)

Regional competitions serve as a time for league members to accrue fantasy points, win points, and knowledge of FIRST robots. When the regional competitions are over, the system would rank each league member and would allow the top 50 finishers to participate in the playoffs. An additional 25 teams would be chosen from the waiting list (more than 7 win points). If there aren't any teams on the waiting list, then the playoffs would be capped at 50 participating members.

The remaining league members would participate in shadow playoffs. Members would be split up into an arbitrary number of groups of a size no greater than 75 members. Within these groups, the league members would carry out the mechanics of the actual playoffs, it just won't be the official Fantasy FIRST playoffs.

A PowerList would be generated by the system before the draft process. Essentially, it would rank each robot scheduled to appear at the Championship Event according to their performance at the regional level. Robots would generate points, in the same way a league member would, based on their performance at a regional competition. These points would then be divided by the number of regionals the robot competed in. A robot would get:

4 points for every non-placement award it wins (Xerox Creativity, Motorola Quality, etc.)
32 points if it is the number one seed at a regional.
2 points for making it to the quarterfinals.
8 points for making it to the semifinals.
32 points for making it to the finals.
128 points for winning a regional.
2 * (itsQualificationPoints/QualificationPointsAtRegional) * 100

The FantasyDRAFT would take place on a scheduled day after the last regional competition. Members would each receive 2 minutes to make their choice. If they have not made a choice after two minutes, then the system would look at the list of teams they have provided. If a robot that appears on the list is still available, then the system would select that robot for the member. If all robots on a league member's list are taken, then the system would default to the PowerList to make a selection.

The order in which players select in the first round of a draft would be determined by their rank compared with other players (fantasy points). Therefore, the number one ranked player at the start of the playoffs would get the first draft pick. The second round draft order would be randomly generated by the system. For the third round of the draft, the order of selections would be determined by the statistical average strength of the first and second round pick of each participant. That is, the robots chosen during the first and second round would each have a statistical strength (number used to rank the team on the PowerList) and they would be averaged together to determine the power of their owner. The owner who has the weakest statistical strength would get the first pick of the third round and the owner with the strongest advantage would get the last pick. If two owners have the same strength, then the system would decide, randomly, the order in which they pick relative to each other. So, for example:

First round picks:
1. Joel Johnson - 45
2. JVN - 254
3. Koko Ed - 33
4. Andy Baker - 229
5. Dave Lavery - 67

Second round picks:
1. Koko Ed - 343
2. Andy Baker - 292
3. JVN - 71
4. Joel Johnson - 217
5. Dave Lavery - 191

Robot strength sheet:
1. 229 ;) (232.34)
2. 45 (200.34)
3. 33 (200.34)
4. 254 (198.45)
5. 67 (198.35)
6. 292 (198.25)
7. 71 (171.23)
8. 343 (150.33)
9. 191 (145.34)
10. 217 (127.65)

Strengths:
1. Joel Johnson - 45 + 217 (200.34 + 127.65) = 163.995
2. JVN - 254 + 71 (198.45 + 171.23) = 184.84
3. Koko Ed - 33 + 343 (200.34 + 150.33) = 175.335
4. Andy Baker - 229 + 292 (232.34 + 198.25) = 215.295
5. Dave Lavery - 67 + 191 (198.35 + 145.34) = 171.845

(Strengths shown above for each robot are random numbers used to illustrate how the system works, don't let the decimals fool you :))

Third round pick order:
1. Joel Johnson
2. Dave Lavery
3. Koko Ed
4. JVN
5. Andy Baker

Once the draft has concluded, playoff participants would be free to trade with each other. However, each league member would only be allowed 5 trades and each trade has to be approved by the commissioner (whoever is running this thing). Also, each trade has to involve the exchange of two robots. As in, player X has to give player Y a robot, if player Y gives player X a robot.

In the playoffs, players would not be randomly paired up with a "foe." Each robot in the playoffs would earn points based on their performance at the championship. Fantasy points would be distributed as follows:

4 points for every non-placement award won (Xerox Creativity, Motorola Quality, etc.)
32 points for being the number one seed.
2 points for making it to the division quarterfinals.
8 points for making it to the division semifinals.
32 points for making it to the division finals.
128 points for being division champion.
256 points for making it to the grand finals.
512 points for being national champion.
2 * (itsQualificationPoints/QualificationPointsInDivision) * 100

To determine the FIRST Fantasy League Playoff Champion, playoff participants would be ranked based on the average number of fantasy points their robots have earned. The participant with the highest number of average robot points wins. Winners of each shadow playoff group would be compared with each other, and the participant with the highest number of fantasy points would be given the title of FIRST Fantasy League Wannabe Playoff Champion (;)). Once again, remember, each player would get the points earned by their STAR team, should they be competing at the Championship event. And due to the fact that players are ranked based on an average number of fantasy points earned, their STAR team could bring their average either up or down. If a playoff participant's STAR team does not qualify for the Championship Event, then the participant would get the average fantasy points earned by the three robots on their alliance.

Awards:
1. FIRST Fantasy League Playoff Champion
2. FIRST Fantasy League Playoff Top Ten
3. FIRST Fantasy League Wannabe Playoff Champion
4. FIRST Fantasy League Top Ten
5. Most Wins during pre playoffs (can be a "multi-way-tie")

So.. what do you think of that?
That is amazing Joel. Could you design a website to handle such a system?

Joel J 11-04-2004 00:20
Re: Fantasy FIRST suggestions for next year
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed
That is amazing Joel. Could you design a website to handle such a system?
I don't know if there would be enough time for me to do it, I am still not done with my team's website. If a group of talented PHP programmers could meet over the summer and discuss the system in detail and share the workload, then it could happen. I wouldn't mind leading the design of the system, but only if there are other good people willing to see this thing through.


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