Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Hey gang-

I was just wondering what the final decision is on how the teams will qualify for the 2005 Nationals.

Of course the National Chairman's Winners will be eligible but as far as I can determine, all other slots are wide open.

Is the tier system still in effect for next year (aka- all those teams from this year essentially can't go)? Teams need to win regionals to participate?

There was some ambiguity as to whether the system was going to change again for 2005. In any case I pray that FIRST makes an announcment VERY EARLY either way so teams can plan.

I am looking for an informed answer to this question...

WC

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Wow, I can only hope it gives some kind of upper hand to veteran teams who didnt go this year... If we are not able to go 2 years in a row I would cry :(

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Here is some information from this year. Looks like FIRST will revamp the point system or do away with it. This may be a good place to start making suggestions of which awards, if any, should earn points toward '05. In my opinion, no award should earn you points especially the Regional Chairman's because it creates a "They won it last year so let's give it to someone else" mentality.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

does winning a division at the championship mean the same as winning a regional?

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Again, another example of the ineffeciency of FIRST and their lack of concern for the average team.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

yes, winning a division counts the same as a regional (for merit points, that is)

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

88 won the EI Award in New Jersey... That doesn't mean we qualify for next year does it??? Or does it have to be in the same year???

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

If your team won a REGIONAL CHAIRMAN'S this year, does that qualify us for the finals next year?

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

i'm pretty sure that EI and regional chairman's are just like winning the regional - they count for merit points the next year (assuming that there is some sort of merit system) but do not guarantee a spot

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

It has to be the same year. Winning a division doesn't do anything, it would only qualify you for the national competition that you were already at when you won it.

Basically if you can't sign up during the registration based on the tier system then you have to win one of those awards at a regional.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

this year we got in by the waiting list... We qualified anyway with the EI award but they said we got in a while back due to the tier system and we were in the last tier... Who knows maybe if we don't win an award next year which I pray we get Chairman's (Winning the regional can wait... I would love a chairman's instead) we can get in by tier... hmmmm I don't know... We'll see I guess...

People call me crazy but I would take a Regional Chairman's over a National title anyday...

But that's my opinion...

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Yeah, I agree with ToMMan b182... not going two years would be difficult for a veteran team. All the more reason to aim high next year and try to win a chairman's or EI award, though!

It's important for the rookie teams to go though, too. They deserve to see a championship and hopefully be inspired by the great atmosphere. Regionals are great, too, of course :)

Either way, though, I'll be fine. I'll get to go senior year for sure then if we can't go next year!

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I need the community’s opinion on this, what if next year will be your 3rd year and you’ve never competed in nats, what are the odds of being asked to come next year?

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I'd say that they are pretty good... Aim high though!!!

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

This was our fourth year and we still have yet to attend the Championship event. We've had a grand 'ol time without it though, but next year we hope to go just because we've never been before.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I would also think that all of the remaning teams from 92 would also have an automatic invite those teams being 45 126 190 191 and 250 i believe

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

(3 winners + 1 chairmans + 1 EI + 1 Rookie ) * about 30 Regionals + 5 original teams + 5 former chairmans (dont know the actual number) + 3 2004 champs = 193 teams based on the system of regional qualification FIRST will most likely use. So that leaves about 107 teams that will be qualified another way, most likely the tier system again.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

does anyone know what's going on with the odd team numbers and even team numbers? I heard that odds get to go next year and evens year after that, but I'm not sure.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

That was an old system. It was eliminated this year.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

To me it looked like they could put another field in the Georgia dome. For those that were there....
1. Did it really look like another field could be placed under the dome?
2. Is the pit are large enough to support another 60 teams?
3. Do you think the event can hold another 2,000 people?

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

1. yes, just reorganize the existing area it could be done
2. yes,they have moveable walls there, and they were storying the crates in a room about the same size right next to the pits. if they wanted more pit room it looks like the wall that is moveable would just have to open (i looked cause i wanted to know why we were all packed in like sardines)
3. most definitely. I am not a coordinator of this, but I believe it can...

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

points are gone.....in the past you used points from the previous years and even/odd to qualify but if you read the FIRST page points will no longer be used

they are doing the tier system and the only people who will qualify from the previous system are the national chairmans winners and the national champions all other proformance from this season does not matter

Tiered System modified from this year i am assuming that they will just push the dates back which is what i have done

Rookie Tier Rookie Year is 2005
Tier 1 Last attended Championship in 2004, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 2004
Tier 2 Last attended Championship in 2003, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 2003
Tier 3 Last attended Championship in 2002, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 2002
Tier 4 Last attended Championship in 2001, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 2001
Tier 5 Last attended Championship in 2000, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 2000
Tier 6 Last attended Championship in 1999 or earlier, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 1999 or earlier
Tier 7 Last attended Championship in 1998 or earlier, or
never attended Championship and Rookie Year is 1998 or earlier


this year tiers 2-6 all were quailified so i would assume that you would just just jump down a tier and for the next year qualify...what this does is make it every 2-3 years between when teams go to nationals which leaves room for FIRST to expand more


these are just assumptions baised on what first said this year and would be correct assuming they stick with the tier system which i like very much

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Mike,
To me the issue is not that of space, it comes down to:
1. Having enough people and equipment to support a fifth division and
2. Devising a playoff/finals system that works in a timely and fair fashion. If anyone has ever arranged a large scale tournament you know the problems that exist.

With five division champions how do you hold finals? A round robin format would probably lengthen the day by at least an hour or more and any implimentation of double elimination or single elimination factoring in byes would do the same. Unless your divisions are a multiple of four, I see no fair way to treat all division winners equally and adding another four divisions does not seem practical from a field/equipment/people standpoint.

With all of that said, I'd love to find a way to include as many teams as possible, downsize the divisions to "regular regional" size, and have each team run more matches. Looking at the big picture, I think FIRST is already doing the best it can to accomodate all of those ideals.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

If the LEGO League pits were removed, I think another 3 fields could be added (one where the LEGO pits were and another on either end of the field). In addition, if Einstein were used as a regular division, there could be a total of 8 fields (which would be easy to run finals for). The only real question is if FIRST actually has 8 complete fields.

There was also plenty more room in the pits. I saw two halls adjacent to the pits of the same size which weren't being used (actually, one was being set up for a convention the following week, and one held crates).

In short, I don't see why there couldn't be 600 teams at Nats. Yes, it would be harder for FIRST in terms of manpower, it would mean Eistein would be used for more than 6-9 matches, and it would mean that it would be harder to see the finals, but it is possible. As FIRST grows, I think that the Championship needs to grow as well.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

That's looking less likely given the issue with team 20 this past year (whether or not team 20, which was a split off of 250, qualifies as an original team). I may be wrong but my guess is they'll solve the problem by removing the ability of those teams to attend (that and it wasn't particularly popular that they could attend).

Matt

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

From what I am seeing above, none of you have any definite information on this issue.

Based on this year's qualifying the only attendees will be those who win 2005 regionals or certain awards at them

In other words, except for the Cheesy Poofs' Chairmans Award, there are NO prequalified teams left from this season.

I am also under the impression that FIRST expected all those teams that never went to NATS prior to 2004 to take advantage of the opportunity this season and there is no guarantee that they will have the same offer next year.

Somewhere I remember a statement that the guidelines for this year were subject to change next year.

I Repeat- FIRST should make up their minds and issue a statement NOW as to how the qualification process for the 2005 season will work.


as for expanding the Nationals- FIRST has already made it clear that they don't WANT to consider the idea. The explanation is always that there is not enough labor or support for the extended fields. Whether you or I can see ways around that is irrelevant because the issue is not up for consideration.

If it were I would be right out in front looking for the funds or volunteer labor to purchase a new field and man it.


So, if my guys qualify at all in 2005, we look forward to hasty hotel arrangements, overpriced airfares and, for me, several weeks of pure hell making the trip arrangements.

But then again, most of you will be with me too...
WC

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Does anyone here know when FIRST normally releases information pertaining to the new nationals selection system?

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

What is most interesting is that 71 almost did not get into the Championship this year because they did not pre-qualify or win a regional. They got in as a late addition due to open slots. What does that say about the merit of winning a regional as qualifications for the Championship?

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Same with you guys last year, right? Except the even/odd thing was still in place.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I believe Beatty did win EI at one of their regionals, which would have qualified them (they were already entered at that point, I think).

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Wayne, I have an out for you to consider. Since Tonya (Scott) & crew got the conference off the ground this year, we are probably only going to one regional and then to the Championships regardless if we qualify or not. The logic is that regardless if our robot makes the trip to the Championships, it will be worth it for the students to experience 15,000 other students excited about engineering. If the robot does not go, our students will have the opportunity to help other teams (cheer, scout, etc.), volunteer (FRC & FLL), and attend the conference.

With all that said, hopefully the packages will be available to any teams that wish to attend and not just those who have qualified. Message to FIRST: PLEASE open the packages to any teams that wish to attend even if they have not qualified for the Championships. It's a win/win for everyone. Of course, we could always "cooperate" with another qualified team to book our packages.

Just some thoughts,
Lucien

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Yes, this is definitely possible to have 8 divisions, but I really dont see why it should be done. I dont think everyone should be able to go to nationals every year. I think it should be limited, and a challenge to get in to. It adds to the excitment if your team does go. It makes it more of an accomplishment just to be there. Also, it will excite the communities more, esspecially as FIRST grows into a household name. I agree every team should get the oppritunity to go to nationals, and the teir system is the perfect way to do this. I think FIRST really has things worked out right, making nationals a thing of honor and prestige, but also something available to everyone!

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Interesting how those things happen. Hmmm.

WC

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Sounds good Lucien but how do I explain to my school administration that our team is travelling so far and taking off school time just to watch. My superintendant is most interested in seeing a trophy and nothing more. The neanderthal sports like attitude is really offensive at times but his office approves the travel.

You and I know that being at the Nats is special, but I think there would be something missing if you just sit there and can't be a part of the competition.
If that was the case you could stay home and watch the telecast in comfort.

WC

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

based on prior years - this is right about the time you pay your money in the fall

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I don't understand how we quallified this year then, Because we had quallified way before we got 5 points at our Regional. We had previously won a Regional Chairman's and Team spirit in 2003 so we pre-qualfied for nationals in 2004 and so we were under the feeling we got another 5 quallifying points in 2004 so are we qualified for Nationals in 2005 or not? My team will be starting fundraising and if we only need to fundraise for a Regional or possibly 2 then we need to know this, but if we need to fundraise for nationals because we are pre-qualified again then we need to know... Also the rookie teams qualify with their rookie all-star awards in the year they win so the calculations given earlier were inaccurate i think...
Nate

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Wayne, that's where the conference comes in for us; without the conference, it would be a hard sell. Our administration is already onboard with the idea that the students will be going to the conference and oh, by the way, they may be competing in a robotics competition. In our case, it "saves" the district $4,000 if our robot does not go along for the ride; that's a lot of FLL, EARLY, BEST, & Botball teams! Basically, our district has a robotics education budget that is spent on several different activities from 3rd through 12th grade. Time will only tell what affect this has on the students, teachers and engineers; hopefully, it will be years and years before I can report on what it is like to go to the Championships without a 'bot. :)

There is one MAJOR drawback with this plan though, we may become overzealous and put winning (which is our 3rd goal) ahead of teaching the students engineering & life skills (which is our 1st goal ... our 2nd goal is to expose our community to engineering). We are VERY cognizant that this may happen so we've been trying to think of ideas to combat it.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

There's a very simple reason why there won't be 600 teams at the Championship: it's hard to manage 300 teams, 600 would be a nightmare. It's not an issue of space, it's merely an issueing of managing the teams. That many teams in one place would be very difficult to organize and FIRST knows it.

Matt

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I agree that FIRST is doing the best it can with the resources it currently has available (staff, volunteers, fields, time, and of course money). Putting together an event of this size is not easy...

But the real question could be asked: What can WE do to help FIRST with the current situation/limitations, to make it easier for them once they do decide to expand?

just some food for thought
-mike

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

To Revive an Old Thread-

Now that FIRST has announced a new price increase they must be thinking about the 2005 season-

I repeat- does anybody have any definitive information from FIRST as to the method for qualification for the National Championships for 2005?

Is FIRST planning to announce this anytime soon?

WC

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I sent an e-mail to FIRST a week ago with regard to this topic, and they have not yet responded. All I asked was when they were planning on releasing the criteria, and I mentioned some of the points from this thread, such as financial planning issues for smaller teams. You'd think they'd have the courtesy to tell me when the information will be available, even if they don't tell me the actual information. I will post whatever I hear from them, if anything, though I wouldn't hold my breath.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

We could ask these questions at the team forums being held. If I remember I will ask on June 15 at ours. I believe that this years Champions are exempt for 1 year only. Each year the previous years Champs are allowed to attend to defend their title. This could change though.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Ok, Wayne and everyone else. Nothing has been released as of a "new" system for 2005. But, in last years release on this issue, FIRST said:

So, I am assuming nothing, only guessing that a new tier system will be the only system that is set into place going by that quote which by the way, can be found on THIS PAGE on FIRST's website.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

This matter really bothers me, because I had the best time of my life down there at Atlanta. It would an unbelivable opportunity.

I was just thinking, as for convincing the staff and such, could the whole team make a petition or something? Get the whole team to write how much they learnt, how they got inspired just being at that place? It's not always about winning...

Although, I do wish we qualify for the nationals, it makes things much simpler.. but everythings such a mess right now.. All I can do is pray for FIRST to release the criteria soon:(

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

***OFFICIAL INFORMATION***
I just got off the phone with Bob Hammond, who is the FIRST Robotics Competition Director, and he said that they are not planning on making any changes to the system, which means no points, only tiers and award-winners. The only possible change, he said, is adding a new award, but he said that that's not very likely. So, that should answer everyone's questions.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

That is also what was said at the LA Team Forum last night. So at least they are being consistent.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

What Price increase?
Where can I find this info?

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals-Last Chance
 

Brain storm idea.

Maybe have a "last chance" at Atlanta starting on Monday for only teams that have not qualified. Everything is already set up. Seems to me that they could handle another 300 teams or so. Teams that attend and don't qualify would at least experience a taste of the Championship and some teams might stay over as spectators.

Mr. Bill

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

The problem with that is all of the bureaucracy involved with the school administration. You can't just say that the team "might stay all week." Teams would have to stay for the entire week or not show up at all, because of plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc.

Re: Qualifying For the 2005 Nationals
 

I think that is a good idea, if you didn't qualify you can join another team in spirit, just be a spectator, go to the workshops, and just suck in the atmosphere of Atlanta and the Tournament. The last chance thing sounds like golf quallifiers I think it would be cool personally.

Nate