Autonomous Mode at the End of Matches
 

Regarding autonomous mode at the end of the match:

I think everyone needs to keep in mind that FIRST is about inspiring young people to become involved with science and engineering. Surely some teams, those with great resources and highly skilled programmers, would be able to create robots designed to succesfully maneuver in an autonomous mode held at the end of the match. However, you must try to imagine how hard this would be for rookie teams.
As it was this year, I saw plenty of teams at the richmond regional and nationals that for one reason or another did not take part in the autonomous portion of the match. (I could be wrong, but I think 2 of the teams in the national finals did not move during the autonomous period) Undoubtedly, some of these teams were unable to succesfully program their robots to work during autonomous mode. I would have to guess that the percentage of rookie teams nationwide that were unable to make good use of the autonomous period was also fairly high compared with established teams.
Now imagine that the autonomous period is moved to the end of the match. Teams that were unable to make a succesful autonomous mode for their robot at the beginning of the match would now be utterly (to put it bluntly) screwed. Also, how boring would matches be if during the last 30 seconds, only one or two of the robots was still doing something productive? (It would be like when a couple of robots get tipped over midway through the match and can't recover.)
We put up with some robots not doing something at the beginning of the match because autonomous mode provides an extra facet to the engineering challenge of the competition. At the same time, this extra facet is not so extreme as to discourage rookie teams from competing. In my humble opinion, to place the autonomous mode at the end of the match would create an obstacle so great that many prospective teams would choose not to take part in the competition. Moving the autonomous period to the end of the match would therefore go against FIRST's goal of expanding interest in science and engineering to more young people across the country. For this reason I am firmly against moving the autonomous period to the end of the match.

-Andrew

Re: Next Years Game?
 

I would prefer a relay race using two allainces of four robots racing through some sort of obsatcles course carrying a bin or a bowling pin with autonomous mode exchanges. Your seeding is based soley on time(if your alliance loses you get an additonal 15 seconds added to your time).

Re: Next Years Game?
 

I dont its going to be a water competition, yet...
But a competition were wheeled robots become a disadvantage or unusable might occur sometime soon(a step pyrimids, potholes, "rocks"...). I would like to see a game similar to a giant air-hockey table, that'd be fun. Not sure what human players would do yet, but still. the field could be made entirely from slippery materials, or mainly from it anyway. The puck could be designed to slide on the surface or on casters. A game like this would require power for shoving matches, speed to avoid them, manueverability for the same reason, and a device to give you control of the puck(would you be allowed to pick it up?). Also, the infra-red could be used to have a robot get a point to aim at when shooting the puck from a distance, so you could have an aimer in effect. The devise you use to shoot would also propose another build chalenge. We have to keep in mind that first is all about creating challenges that make every robot unique, and thats the one problem with my idea, so far. A lot of the robots would be similar. Possibly multiple pucks capable of being stacked on one another to create a multiplier for scoring them? And that creates more scoring chances.

Re: Next Years Game?
 

I would really like to see a rough terrrain field or items that are challenging to pick up theese balls are just to easy and the crates from last year were demolished within 2 matches. It would also be nice to go back to a game where the robot could score balls so the whole match isnt dependant on your human player.

Re: Next Years Game?
 

I think it will somehow involve moving targets and 4 infrared beacons. The robots could use these to triangulate to tell their position, etc. I don't think that the whole match will be autonomous, as that would be too large of a challenge for rookie teams.

Re: Next Years Game?
 

All I can say is that autonomous will most likely get longer or somehow harder next year.

Re: Next Years Game?
 

It would be, and it may be that after a robot performs a certain task, the blinder goes up (or down) in front of their opponent for fifteen seconds. Or if a team volentarily uses a blinder, their score is tripled. I am a fan of having an early termination option for an incresed amount of points, or a multiplied amount of points. Or maybe a game with all robots on a single team, that would be interesting. I'm sure that they could throw some water in that game somewhere.

Re: Next Years Game?
 

Now I've got an idea for next year's field...

Food service-grade cooking lard.

I mean, it cuts traction (better driving required), slicks up the drivetrain (fewer breakdowns), and is available in every high school cafeteria!

More realistically, I'd love to see something like a linoleum field. Something with less traction. (FIRST drifting, anyone?) And on the subject of no-direct-view driving, how about having the HPs navigate for the drivers? Now THAT would take some teamwork!

Re: Next Years Game?
 

Low traction eh? How about some water?

Re: Next Years Game?
 

My views on next years game:

Autonomous: if anyone expects this to go away, quit kidding yourself. It is here to stay. As far as the rookie teams having problems with it, yes there were plenty of rookie teams with no autonomous at all. However, there were a significant number of well done rookie autonomous modes as well. For that matter, there were even veterans who did not have autonomous. I expect autonomous to be very important next year as it was this year, but I do not expect it to be anywhere but at the beginning of the match. Furthermore, unless the rounds get longer which I do not expect, autonomous will stay at 15 seconds to still leave plenty of time for "human interfacing" to occur. In this 15 seconds though I would expect the robots to be able to do something that greatly increases their score or gives potential to greatly increase their score. For example, this year you could dump the balls. Next year expect your multiplier to only be available in autonomous. Furthermore, I wouldn't expect it, but 15 seconds at the beginning and then another 10 seconds at the end would be nice. Think of how many teams would have hung or capped this year if their robot could have had 5 more secondsby itself at the end.

Field: The field for the most part isn't going to make major changes like going to water or sand or Mars for that matter. However, I would expect a more advanced stair system. Perhaps instead of a ramp like in stack attack, there will be a system of stairs (atleast 6" each and atleast 4) in the middle which will offer some major end of game points for being on. (maybe 6" high steps with only 12" platforms). And maybe another limbo bar on the sides to force people to climb stairs or be small or something. As far as IR beacons, I don't expect them back in a big way. Many teams with awesome programmers couldn't get them to work or recognize the beacon or half a dozen other problems.

Scoring item/method: If it hasn't already been done, donut shaped things that get put on a pole. Although footballs would also be so cool. Imagine designing a mechanism to handle such an odd shaped ball. For scoring, they human player would throw the ball from the corner of the field to some form of barrel or other structure. I would expect the robot to be able to score again next year. Maybe only in autonomous though (and the ending function will of course still be in existence).

That is my prediction. A large square field, stairs in the middle as a ramp or something with limbo bars on the side. Either 4 poles in the corners or 2 goals similar in shape to this years but more rigid. 15 seconds of initial autonomous and another maddening off season wondering what the game will be ;)

Mad props to the guy who came up with the idea of making the robot first person. If that did not cost so much (for all of the cameras and monitors, etc. that would be the coolest thing ever).

Re: Next Years Game?
 

i brought up a similar idea, but Mr. Cokeley had a logical reason why that would be bad: some schools have second floor gyms, and having a post-season comp there might cause the floor to cave in. also, water might splash on the scoring computers, controls systems, and so on. it would be way too much work. while it would be cool, it would have to be another competition entirely and done in swimming pools or something

Re: Next Years Game?
 

i have already made up a game for next year, it's pretty crazy

first of all, the scoring objects are cylinders

second, the cylinder score is squared, so 1 cylinder gets 1 point, 2 get 4 points, 9 get 81 points, etc. this makes the game really hectic.

as if this wasnt crazy enough, autonomous would be in the middle of the round (with a killswitch of course). players who use the killswitch would have to wait an additional 15 seconds to resume driver play.

i am working on this game and am going to submit it when they ask for ideas. suggestions or comments anyone?

Re: Next Years Game?
 

All reasonable assumptions. As has been raised so very many times in the past, there is a very long list of reasons why an underwater robotics competition would not be practical. The logistics and potential facility damage associated with constructing a pool large enough to hold the robots would be overwhelming. For that reason, even I do not think that it is likely.

Of course, we never said ANYTHING about the operating environment for the drivers...

-dave

Re: Next Years Game?
 

Regarding this comment--wheels are like black. They're always in fashion...ibot, anyone?

And I wouldn't mind playing Anthony's game...especially with footballs. While it might give a slight advantage to teams with football teams at their schools, all you'd have to do is make it an unconventional method of scoring. (A FIRST Frenzy-style goal would be a mess of fun...although I guess you'd need to add more pipes to hold them in.)

I still don't see an end-of-match autonomous happening. I like the theory of mid-match autonomous, but it just doesn't seem safe unless your first half of driving involves getting your robot right in position. Not good viewing.

I guess I might as well take my swing at it, given the limits of FIRST and the madness of my head...

BILLFRED'S 2005 GAME

Autonomous: Same as this year as to length and position, although I foresee something to do with AT LEAST a ramp, maybe stairs. And I know that's doable--at least one or two teams in Archimedes did it this year. No clue as to what it'd do--perhaps a ball dump, perhaps not.

Field: One red and one blue team per side, with a fence midway. Mandingo-sized steps are in the middle, a la Anthony's idea. The field's got a red side and a blue side, a la Stack Attack. (Note that one opposing robot starts in this zone, but could go over to the other side by stairs or limbo--strategy becomes big here.)

On the field (or dumped onto it, your choice) are three kinds of balls--8.5" playground balls (you know, the kind you can actually FIND locally), tennis balls (if nothing else, because they force you to ride lower to avoid riding over them), and one 2X-sized ball.

Game: Basically, you're trying to get the balls off of your side of the field. It can either be done by pushing the balls over to the other side, a 33-style exhaling, or by simply scooping the suckers into a bin on your robot. (Lots of archetypes, just like this year. Keeps things interesting.) Score things up somehow (including parking your robot on the steps), probably with the low score winning. For a really devilish trick, paint a lower step that team's color, and have that count as well (or even for more).

I think it'd be a high-action, high-strategy game, especially with robots starting catty-corner from each other. Then you've got to get to your side to send balls over, or somehow suck them back over if you're in enemy territory, or just start sending them over if you're on your own side.

The only feasibility problem is in field reset, given the number of small objects. My remedy is to have two sets of balls, which can be sorted and counted out while the match is played with the other set. Just put each in bins that can be easily emptied. (If they can make a ball dump like this year's, they can figure this one out.)

Thoughts?

Re: Next Years Game?
 

Good ideas, but we need to include both human players and a real reason for the autonomous mode. Maybe robots could be disabled for 15 seconds or so MIDWAY through the match and humans could try and clean up the mess on their side. No robot would start until humans got back to their spots, similar to stack attack. Penalties would be given to late arrivals.

As for autonomous they could do a similar thing to this year where if you complete a task, you have an advantage. Maybe the course would be windy from one side to the other on top of the stairs and if your robot got through in time, then your opponent's drop would be DELAYED (less time to get rid of the balls).

Another part could be added for the end of the game, as they have been doing for a few years. Perhaps if the robot was back in its starting position (which could be on a ramp or something), they would receive some extra points (or points added to opponent's score, depending on if you want a high or low score to win).

-Diobsidian