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I absolutely love this picture. Thanks to TechnoKat Lee Hinze for taking it. There are so many things going on here.
1. The entire field is captured in the picture 2. Many important people are around the field. You can see Dave Ferrera (blue/white Hawaiian shirt), Kenny A, Ed Sparks, Jim Zontag, Dan Green, and Paul Copioli, Mark Breadner, Hut Snow, Tim from 65. 3. The excitement of our cheering section is captured 4. The 716/45 drive team is going crazy. ... and most importantly, look at the two blonde guys in the team 45 drivers station hugging each other. The student with his back to us (Austin) is hugging his dad (Delphi engineer Steve Butler). That look of pure happiness on Steve's face is priceless. That was quite a moment. Andy B. |
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I knew you guys would do it. In this thread http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...82&postcount=9 I mentioned that I thought you guys would be the highest scoring robot of the year. I thought you had it at Midwest. I'm glad you did it because I had some side action going on that you would pull it off. You cut the timing a little too close for comfort, though.
I also want to give a little credit here to Ken Patton for his "Finger and Thumb" prediction. He hit the nail on the head. Take that, Paul! (ha ha) -Chris |
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I captured a view of some of Team 45 cheering in the stands immediately afterwards.
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I am pround to say that I help with the real time scoring on the blue side. Thats me sitting 2 seats to the right of the IFI person.
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That was my favorite match. I don't care how much people dislike certain aspects of the game this year. The simple fact is that it was so much fun to watch and play. Matches like this made me glad I gave up my Saturday to sit at the computer.
Great job guys. |
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Ken P.S. thumbs up Paul! |
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Patton,
You weasel! Your finger and thumb scenario did not pan out. Never once did you say a thumb was a robot playing defense on the field. I still claim that 2 TechnoKat like robots would beat a Beatty & Martian (1 offense + 1 defense) team. We may never know. |
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Ken: "The winning alliance at nationals will consist of a finger and a thumb." Chris: "huh?" Ken: "There will be one offensive robot (the finger), and one strong defensive robot (the thumb) that will keep the other team from scoring." Chris: "Sounds reasonable." Paul: "No way. A finger and a thumb could never beat two great offensive machines." Ken: "I'm just saying, the alliance that wins the championship will consist of a good finger, and a good thumb." Paul: "Okay, you're on!" Then I remember something about singing karaoke in Atlanta. What song did you choose, Paul? |
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You know Chris, Paul is partially right on this one - I was hoping he might just let me get away with this. He knows that my ideal thumb (and the one I thought would win it all) was a pole-dominator in the style of 190,930,330,237. So, he is <gulp> kind of correct in his observation that I'm being a weasel.
But, Paul, there is no doubt that there was a thumb on the field. Ken Patton Team 65 The Weasel Brigade |
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Ken,
Very true. However, there were not two fingers on the opposing alliance. My arguement is that a defender trying to stop two offensive robots will get beat very severely. Example: Team 33 and Team 45 (or 303,461,469,1241,93) both have their robots full of balls. O.K. defender, what do you do? Try to stop both and you will stop neither. Try to stop one and the other will score unstopped. Chances are the defender will lose. An off season competition will prove me right ... I know it! -Paul |
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45 + 33 vs. 494 + 60. 494 plays big D on those pesky technokittens. Shuts them down. 33 goes nuts on offense. 60 does the same. 494 and 60 both hang. Who wins? Finger + Thumb. I gotta agree with Ken on this one Paul. A more versatile alliance can take down a strictly offensive alliance. Especially if they have the magic hanging capability. ;) The defensive robot doesn't have to stop both offensive robots. Just one of them. They only need to slow the offensive alliance down enough so that their partner can outscore them. John |
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John,
Let me ask you this: did 494 completely shut down 45? No. And that was when they were only worrying about one robot. Chances are that 494 (or the defensive robot of your choice) will only slow down one of the offensive robots. If you don't like the 33 & 45 matching, how about 45 & 60? 60 and 45 doing all offense while 494 is trying to stop them. When 494 goes to hang so does 60, leaving 45 to cap. If 494 does the defense thing on the stationary, then 60 will defense the defense leaving 45 to cap. The bottom line is that 494 had to stop 45 from capping, because they could not stop them from getting enough small balls (11 - 13). Add another robot that concentrates, let's say, on the movable goal and caps it. The defensive robot doesn't have a prayer. I am not saying defense doesn't play a part, but 2 robots that PRIMARILY play offense (2 fingers) will beat the finger and the thumb. Back to the point: Our bet was that a POLE DOMINATOR paired with an offense oriented robot would win. That did not happen. The fact that a defensive robot on the floor is now called a thumb is beyond the scope of the original definition. However, given this new definition I still say 2 fingers will beat a finger and the "new" thumb. |
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Hey Andy,
Welcome to the debate. I'm glad there is someone on my side of the argument. I thought I was all alone. A little history: Ken and I were on the MidWest team for the game design committee this year (we had no idea what the game was, we just came up with our ideal game and submitted it along with rules, etc.). Our big discussion was designing a game that a finger and a thumb could not dominate (the nomenclature came from Verbrugge .. picture a thumb squeezing the life out of the game). We felt that the 2003 game could be dominated by a finger and a thumb and wanted to avoid that at all costs. It came as no surprise when the game was revealed Ken and I started debating if the thumb could dominate. His idea was that a bar dominator, aka thumb, along with a good offensive robot would win it all. The story grows from there, but that is how it all started. |
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However, when I initially thought of this, I forgot to factor in the possibilty of the offensive machines hanging. Or the offensive machines being able to, themselves, play defense. A strictly defensive alliance has to basically rely on the fact that they can both hang and at most, only one of their opponents can. 233 + 716 has a good chance of taking out a 33 + 45 alliance, but only if they do it right. To be honest, I would feel much more comfortable as part of the 33 + 45 alliance, because you do not necessarily need a strong(er) robot to play very good defense. Now, if the alliance has one defensive and one offensive robot, then the chances of them taking out two offensive machines are very high. Look at the last match of the championship. 494 diverted their opponent's attention away from 71, allowing 71 an enormous amount of breathing room to rack up their score. (ohh.. i just read john's example) I think 33 + 45 would win (the alliance, not the assumed form of play); it would just require 33 to assume a "defensive" role, which I'm sure they are capable of. 33 would prevent 494 from disabling 45. 45 then gets free roam to fill their goal with 5 point balls and cap it: 170 points. 60 would put about 14 balls into their goal, cap, then hang. 190 points? No. 45 would cap their goal earlier allowing them to go over and uncap 60's goal. 120 points for the 60 alliance. At this point 494 would perhaps get away and attempt to uncap 45's goal. If they succeed, 45's score drops to 85 points. But 33 should be able to prevent the uncapping. If 33 hangs while 494 is decapping, then their (33+45's) score jumps up to 135. If 494 decides not to uncap 45's goal and instead goes for the hang, then their alliance's score would jump to back to 170. The end result: a tie. Eek. Its getting hairy now. But looking back at this possible outcome, a 33 + 45 alliance has more room to beat a 60 + 494 alliance. |
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Team 60, with its sheer capping speed, caps the opponents goal at the very begining of the match, rendering allllll those little balls that 33 and 45 can get, useless until they can manage to pull the ball out of the stationary goal....not an easy feat may I add. |
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My point is: Nobody is dominating the match.
Good game this year. |
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If the stationary goal does end up being taken out of commission by a well-stuffed multiplier, don't count out the mobile goal. Team 1272 was consistent in filling it to the brim and capping it. The mobile goal was never a real factor in 45's strategy, which arguably led to a few of the TechnoKats' losses. |
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Ahhh yessss, they could do that, and although I don't recall their sheer capping speed, they may not be able to complete it without several 10pt goaltending penalties. Either way, we've got plenty of strategies up our sleeve. :) Our little balls will never be useless... :) Besides, who ever said they would dominate the 2x ball before us? :D I think they may have just wasted their 2x ball............. |
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Are there 23 balls in that goal? With only one bot hanging, a score of 230 to 70 and four bals in the opponents goal, The only way to get 230 is 23 balls in the goal!. Am I missing something, I didn't think that many would fit?
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BTW, it sure is a lot easier to score a lot of points when both opponents on on their side ;) |
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John |
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You KNOW the guy on the floor can be a thumb. It is NOT beyond the original definition. No chance. It is, however, beyond the intent of the bet. I thought a pole dominator would make it. That didn't happen (though I was rooting for 330 in Archimedes - they got tipped off the platform before hanging in the semis I think...) We don't need to create new scenarios - we watched the finals. A Beast-of-all-trades allied with a hanging thumb was the winner. Agreed? And nobody wins the bet cause we were both wrong.... Ken |
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Beach Bots tipped over. :(
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[edit] Oops. I forgot to check to see if there were already any responses to Gene's post. :o [/edit] |
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:) -dave |
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I was thinking a lot about how to beat 45 + 33 vs us + another team before nationals. I came to the conclusion that playing defense to stop them from herding wouldn't work very well. It might slow them down a little but if 494 is over there harassing 45 + 33, the two of them together can still herd faster than 60/254 alone on their side of the field.
I thought about blocking the ball chutes with mobile goals, but it's a risky strategy. At the beginning of the match the 60/254 + 494 alliance blocks both corralls with the 2 mobile goals. Then they spend the rest of the match preventing 45 and 33 from latching onto the goals to move them out of the way so they can dump. Then with 20 seconds left 254/60 runs to hang. I didn't have a lot of confindence in this strategy though. I thought about capping 45's stationary goal at the beginning then keeping their mobile goal away from their human players, but I was pretty sure 45's arm could pull the ball out. The strategy that I determined was the best was to try to control all the 2x balls for the entire match. In the beginning of the match 254 starts on the same side as 45 and we run our 1 ball and turn autonomous, triggering only our ball drop and placing ourselves between 45 and the mobile goal at the end of autonomous. Once autonomous is over, we grab the 2x ball and run to our side of the field, where we drop it on the ground. Then we run over and grab the 2x ball off the other mobile goal and hold on to it. Then we poke the 2x ball in the center of the field towards our side of the field. From there, I am pretty confident we could prevent 45 from picking a 2x ball off the ground. Those balls get knocked around very easily and as soon as we see 45 going for a 2x ball we just play keep-away with them by repeatedly running into whatever 2x ball they are going for. Once all the 2x balls are on our side, we either herd unguarded while 45 and 33 herd with 494 harassing, or 45 spends the whole match going for a 2x ball while we defend and 33 herds with 494 playing defense on them. Either way the 45+33 alliance would end up with more small balls, but I doubt they could get more than twice as many as 254+494. At the end of the match 254 caps their goal and holds on until the last second. 33 tries to hang but is defended by 494. A bonus is if our partner can block 33 from tripping their balls in autonomous, since I'm confident we could stop 45 from tripping. End result: No robots hanging 254/60 + 494: 7 balls + cap = 70 points 45 + 33: 13 balls = 65 points It would definately not be an easy match, but that's the strategy I would have tried had we needed to play 45 + 33. |
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Seriously, though. I missed the part of the conversation in which the thumb was defined as a defender of the bar. All I heard is that the thumb played good defense. Sorry about stirring this whole thing up (okay, I'm not that sorry). |
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If we both lost the bet, doesn't that mean we have to sing a duet?
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:) |
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THATS not in the kit of parts! Maybe on Mars. Hmmm, lots of thumbs on Mars.... Ken |
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*eyes Patton warily* Hang in there man, whatever happens, we'll all get through it together. John ;) |
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Congratulations to the winning teams. A very impressive score to get in this year's challenging game. Maybe next year there will be a game were the points actually given are similar to those shown on the animated instructional video. Well...probubly that will never happen, but congatulations none the less! :D
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So we can count on 9 team alliances next year....eight fingers and a thumb ;)
I'll throw my two cents in here...with agreeing that two offensive robots will beat out a half/half offense/defense pair. As stated before...one defensive robot can not watch two offensive robots. Also, a lot of the offensive functions are going to be great for defense. Take for instance those this year who could cap....that was as good of defense as anything with being able to un-cap your opponents goals. |
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