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Re: Hypothetical Situation
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Re: Hypothetical Situation
When our drive team goes out on the field we go out their to win...no matter who our alliance partner is and who is agianst us. Last year at Annapolis we went against(they were together) the two teams we won the regional with and beat them. In my mind picking a team that can beat you would be to your advantage...then you dont have to worry about them in the elims.;)
-Pat |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
Fair game all the way. And if you lose, then you know that you tried.
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Re: Hypothetical Situation
I am almost ashamed that this question was posted.
That goes against so many things that FIRST stands for. For example, if this were ANY professional sport, "holding back" like that would be classified as one thing, and one thing only: POINT SHAVING, which just so happens to be illegal. One of the reasons i like FIRST so much is because of the Gracious Professionalism. This would seem to go directly against that. How could that possibly be gracious to your alliance partners? Also, FIRST is about showing what YOU can do, not about holding back. So my answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT! I also want to say that if anyone asked me to hold back so they could win, even if they would then pick me, I would be disappointed. From the other side as well, I would also NEVER ask any team I am competing against to hold back in a match. And this just follows in my belief that to be the best, you have to beat the best. |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
The old saying "cheaters never win" means that if you cheat you did not beat your opponent, so you did not actually win
if you throw a match for a sister team, then they have not 'won' the match, it was handed to them and if they end up in 1st place, they did not earn that position, it was handed to them and if they win the regional...... you would really have to hold a lot of contempt for your sister team to think they cannot win on their own, to win honestly how would you feel, if your team won a regional, and later found out that other teams had rigged the event to put you on top? If someone did that to my team I would be heartbroken. If you Win (capitol W) then that trophy means something. If someone cheats on your behalf then its nothing but 85 cents worth the plastic. |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
Although you may be helping your sister team, you are most certainly not doing your alliance partners any justice. Sometimes not playing as hard as you can is a good thing, but in this case it most certainly is not.
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Going easy is not an option! In fact I think it would be an insult to you sister team to not try to win. Competition at a regional is exactly what it sounds like, competition. On the field everyon has the same goal, to win. Even if it seems hopeless, you should at least go down fighting!
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Re: Hypothetical Situation
God this thread is old, but here goes.
<devil's advocate> Are you trying to win a single match, or win a tournament? Winning competitions is in large part about cultivating relations with teams, subtle inter-team politics, and though I've never seen it myself, I'd guess a fair amount of backstabbing. It's part of the game as much as scoring tetras or poof balls is. So yeah, I'd say always try your hardest to win. Win the compeition! How is it at all un-GP to try to promote your allies by choosing which matches to do really well in? It is a nash equilibrium (well, it's game theoretic anyway) Mr. Neun! If you aren't thinking like this, you aren't trying as hard as you can. That's rather un-GP if you ask me. </devil's advocate> *twirls mustache, cackles* |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
I think you should not go easy on them, you played strong ever other match and lost by a close match, so why not play hard again and give your sister team a run for their money? Seriously, speaking from experience you get more fun out of earning something than it being handed to you. =]
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Re: Hypothetical Situation
Collusion! Nash Equilibrium! MAN, I'm glad I had micro-economics this semester!
Well I'm going to have to hope over with phrontist on this one for the simple chance of an intelligent argument (because its no fun when nobody's arguing :D So the higher ranked sister team has been doing great all day, is 1st seed, and comes into one of the last matches of the day with you. Their alliance is them, and two robots that have had some "problems" :( we all know how that goes) and your alliance consists of you and two other average to strong robots. They can almost, I mean ALMOST, beat all three of you by themselves, but it comes down to this: dum dum ... dum dum (does that sound like a heart beat to you :confused: if you go up onto the ramp, your alliance wins, if you go play "defense" ;) they win (and you know they are going to pick you as their first pick, and their is a very strong chance you will win your division at nationals and have the best shot to win nationals) so what do you do? huh? ps. sorry i had to make this so hypothetical and far-fetched, but this is the only way i could stretch this to make you, the average FIRSTer, even consider it :yikes: ... let the intelligent punditry resume! |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
Are you kidding?
there may be wthical values involved in this, but you just gotta win man. you have to. you need to strive for perfection and wipe down the weak! and at the same time, you have to help the weak while you are offstage. |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
if your sister team is 8th and you are 50th, you let them win a match, ok
they goto #1 ranking and you fall to what? 65th? if the #1 ranked team picks the #65th ranked team in their first draft pick, there is no way you are going home with the trophy, because the #2 team will pick the #3 or #4 team, and by the time your sister teams gets another pick, their choices (with the new rules this year) will be down to the #17th ranked team. Poetic justice: if you are not playing to win and hand a match to your sister team and they pick the #65th ranked team (you) then they are not playing to win either. In the end you both loose, and the judges will pick up on this and you can kiss goodby any other awards your two teams might have won. It would be a looooooooooooooooooooong bus ride home! |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
Winning or losing is a bug issue and people have different interpretations of winning. While moving on the finals of a regional by losing a match is still winning I'd rather take a loss in a match and keep my integrity.
Either way you lose but this is what I'd do. |
Re: Hypothetical Situation
The issue of collusion was a much bigger deal in the past. Up until 2 years ago teams were ranked not by their wins but instead usually by some multiple of their opponents scores.(Think the current tie breaking system but for your overall rank) Thus it was often to both teams benefit if the other scored as high as possible. While this can only be taken so far in zero sum games like zone zeal in 2002, in 2003 with stack attack it was taken pretty far. Teams could start with stacks of boxes already set up. Opponents would often agree to each leave their opponent's stack untouched in order to improve their rankings. It was frowned upon to a certain extent but not as much as the collusion presented in this thread has people riled up and angry.
As for this situation, depending on the other teams in involved I would consider throwing the match. It would however have to be a very select group of teams. The other robots in my alliance would have to be poorly functioning or not at all for me to consider it as an option. Also as an aside, you don't get to compete that often, only 8 rounds if you only go to one regional and don't get into the finals. If you're driving you want to go out there and show off no matter the situation. |
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