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Eric Bareiss 24-04-2004 00:29

Hypothetical Situation
 
Eric's Poll Question #4

Hypothetical situation:

You are at a competition, you aren't doing very well. You lost a few close matches and you are in 50th place. In your last match you are playing against your sister team. The team who has helped you since the beginning, if you ever need help they are there for you. They are currently in 7th place.

If they win they will move into 1st and be able to select the team that they want, giving them a really good chance of winning. You have a good chance of beating them because their alliance partner is weak.

Do you go easy and let them win?

Please give it some thought and answer honestly.

Edit: For the simple fact that no one is even considering it, we are now assuming that the team they want to pick is your team.

Guest 24-04-2004 00:32

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
No, I would definitely not go easy on them.

This is not fair to your alliance or the other team. Each team has to play to their full abilities. End of story.

Similar situations have been discussed many times before in other threads.

Jack Jones 24-04-2004 00:32

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
No way!

Matt D 24-04-2004 01:07

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
No I would not go easy on them. In fact, we played on of the teams we mentored last year, 1120, in the finals at Sacramento this year. That was not quite your hypothetical situtation, but I would still play to the best of my ability, no matter my friend's position. I would try to show off, hoping to be picked myself.

This does not mean that I do not want my sister team to win. It simply means that I want them to win fairly.

JVN 24-04-2004 01:08

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Bareiss
Do you go easy and let them win?

Hell NO!
You play your hardest, anything less would be disrespectful.

I know if I was on the seeded alliance, I'd want everyone to try their hardest to kick my butt. I'd expect it, because if I was in that position it's what I'd be trying to do.

This isn't a Nash Equilibrium problem.
Go out there, kick some butt, and be the best you can be.
As a coach, how could I ask my HS drivers to hold back? How could I tell them "we can win this, but we're not going to". Or worse... how could I mislead them by giving them a losing strategy? Not to mention my alliance partner...

I hope this is as much a no brainer for everyone else as it is for me.

John

Amanda M 24-04-2004 01:14

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I think going easy on them would show disrespect.

However, this does not mean you can go around beating on them the whole time. Just play your game, and play it fairly. Whoever wins will come out on top.

I like to think about it in the terms of 60 vs. 254 last season. Had we gone up against the Poofs, we would not have ever gone easy on them.

Zzyzx 24-04-2004 01:38

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I'd give 'em a challenge, prove that they are worthy of the #1 spot!

Ben Lauer 24-04-2004 01:46

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Play your hardest. This isn't about who's in first, or who could be. Even if you are in 50th, if you prove yourself to another team, and they think you will compliment thier robot, then you show them what you are worth.

18 teams in the finals, guaranteed they are not 1-18 seeds.

Eric Bareiss 24-04-2004 01:57

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Would it change if the team that they wanted to pick was you? We are assuming you wanted them to pick you.

Ryan M. 24-04-2004 06:13

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
With the addition of the fact that they'll pick you, it's harder, but I'm going to say that you should play your hardest no matter what. :)

Spaztik Duck 24-04-2004 08:18

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I would definitly still play my hardest. They are in first place because they earned it, not cuz teams 'took it easy' on them, so giving them competition is good, for both of you. Everyone wants a good showing in their last match, and a strong competitive match is definitly a good showing.
With FIRST I have noticed that the teams all carry a mutual respect for the other teams and no one gets upset about teams who 'put up a good fight' they just gain more respect because you tried your best.

[edit] when voting i accidently clicked the wrong one... its early

Chris Fultz 24-04-2004 09:18

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Absolutely play your hardest.
That is the only fair approach to your partner and the other teams.

If you play easy, the word will quickly spread.
Soon, the team you were being nice to "only won because you let them".
You both lose respect within FIRST, and reputations die a long, slow death.

The beauty of FIRST is that you:

COMPETE like crazy for the 2 minutes you are on the field - no friends, no allies, no debts - except to your partner at the moment,

then

COOPERATE like crazy all the rest of the time, even to the point of helping the very teams that may whip you later in the day.

When we play this way, we all win.

Billfred 24-04-2004 09:27

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I'd say go out and kick their collective boo-tays...in a non-damaging, graciously professional manner, of course. (wink wink)

If nothing else, it'll send the message that you fight hard in a match--all the better reason for them to pick you!

edomus 24-04-2004 10:35

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
At the risk of angering people I would have to say that I might let them win. To me, if they were going to pick you, it is all part of strategy. Doing this is not illegal.

Pin Man 24-04-2004 10:40

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I believe I would not take it easy... Its not fair to your alliance partner and besides its all in fun... If you throw in the towel on the match and go easy then people would probably hold grouges or something and it would drain out the fun... *shrugs* who knows...

ric2006 24-04-2004 12:56

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
No matter the situation, you should never give up. We had a bad luck situation at nats. Against the #1 tewice. We could have given upl, giving 93 the #1 spot (they were undefeated) they were cosidering us as a 2nd round pick. We aren't really close as teams, btu we still played our best, knocking them to #5

Ryan Albright 24-04-2004 13:07

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Do not go easy on them. This is the same thing as throwing a match. Remember last year when there was alot of talk about "setting up matches" (sorry cant remeber the exact name we used last year) were the teams agreeed to leave each other's stacks alone and then just fight for the top. If you did this in any other sport you would be banned from that sport for life, it has happen in baseball many of times. IF they want to be in 1st place then they will win, but give them a run for their money

Paul H 10-05-2004 16:33

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
This happened to us in Detroit. Now we weren't in 50th, we were in 12th or so, and Chief Delphi (47) was in the top 5 I think. We really wanted to pair up with them, they had a bot that perfectly complimented ours. We played them in qualifying. A friend of mine from the Juggernauts (1) came up to me and said "hey, are you gonna let them win?" I think others probably thought that was the case too. Well, we went out, played them, and beat them. We never play to lose, or even go easy. We play our best every match.

Al Skierkiewicz 10-05-2004 17:37

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Absolutely and unequivocally, NO!
Here is a real world problem though (along the lines)...A team on Saturday morning has lost it's drive team. They are somewhere on the road but no one knows where. Team### asks for teams to put up a drive team until their drivers arrive. You are lucky enough to have a backup drive crew to drive for them only to find out that in their second match, they are against you. What do you do? What do you do?

Joe Matt 10-05-2004 18:01

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
HECK NO! FIRST is still a competiton. Anything less than that is disrespectful for those who tired their hardest and won, and it's also disrespectful for the sister team (not only to mention opening the avenu of "Well, they just lost since they get helped by that team...")

We had a similar occurence during last year's Champs. We didn't do as well as VCU or Annapolis, and we moved are way up to 8th place by winning our last match by just a little. We picked our alliance partners and then lost in the quarter finals. Neddless to say, we found that another team we were very good friends with were going to pick us, and they ended up doing very well. Should we have thrown our last match to get them to pick us? No. It's disrespectful for our alliance parter, our opponents, and all the teams who won fair and square.

Bharat Nain 10-05-2004 18:03

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz
Absolutely and unequivocally, NO!
Here is a real world problem though (along the lines)...A team on Saturday morning has lost it's drive team. They are somewhere on the road but no one knows where. Team### asks for teams to put up a drive team until their drivers arrive. You are lucky enough to have a backup drive crew to drive for them only to find out that in their second match, they are against you. What do you do? What do you do?

Definately play to win. I feel it is wrong to play to lose, even if you alliance agrees/wants that. The point of the game is lost. It then turns into politics. We should definately avoid it. Moreover, whats the big deal? I mean if we play to lose, arent we losers?(Unless in a special situation, not this).

Collin Fultz 10-05-2004 18:04

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz
Absolutely and unequivocally, NO!
Here is a real world problem though (along the lines)...A team on Saturday morning has lost it's drive team. They are somewhere on the road but no one knows where. Team### asks for teams to put up a drive team until their drivers arrive. You are lucky enough to have a backup drive crew to drive for them only to find out that in their second match, they are against you. What do you do? What do you do?

answer to question #1: fight hard...always play to win

answer to question #2: hope that they get there before you have to play your second match (the one against them) and if they don't...hope that you designed your robot better than they did and hope that your "backup" operating crew shows why they are "backup" (and the hp missing some shots would help you out too) :)

Max Lobovsky 10-05-2004 22:22

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I don't mean to start another heated argument, but I'd like to just mention that this might be equated to collaboration between teams (on a large scale, think 254-60 scale). Sacrifices are made all the time in FIRST for the greater goal.

George A. 10-05-2004 23:26

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I hate reiterate what other people are saying, but if the team wants #1 bad enough then they will win. An example of this would be this past year at the Palmetto Regional. We (11) finished 5th overall and was picked by team 281 to ally with them. We accepted. Later on in the allaince selections the team that we mentored (1302) was picked by the number 8 seed. Next thing you know we are playing each other in the finals! They won the first match and we had to win the second. Things got screwy because one of their partners was broken so they decided to put in team 95, but they had already declared that it would be team 1302 and their other partner (i forget the #), but if we wanted to play by the rulebook verbatim then since the robots had already been introduced the match was considered started. We were left with 2 options. Play the game with 1302 and 95 and hope we won to force a third match, or force them to put in their disabled robot and basically guarantee ourselves the win. In the spirit of GP we chose the first option. We won the second match and by time that match was over their third partner was working. We then went onto the 3rd match and wound up winning. We could've gone easy on them and let them win, granted this is a little more extreme than the number one seed, but its the same principle. PLAY TO WIN!!!

jpsaul7usa 11-05-2004 01:30

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
No, only in one situation would that be acceptable.

In Atlanta (Newton) we were moving up into the 20s after a rough start and our ally 585 from AZ this year had been in the top 8 the entire competition. Our last match was against them and if we won we would finish in the mid 20s and they would definitely be bumped out of the top 8. A few people suggested we could make an agreement with them but that idea was shot down almost immediately. We wanted to prove ourselves and play our best, and also we thought that throwing a match would be very underhanded. The only reason why the idea came up is because we were desperate to recover from out tie and loss in our first two rounds because our on-the-spot rebuilt arm didn't quite reach the bar all the way. We didn't like the idea one bit. We ended up finishing 23rd in Newton and 585 22nd. Personally, I like that we finished together. It's too bad neither of us got to finals, but getting to Atlanta was plenty of fun in itself.

The only time I'd say you should throw a game is when you and your ally both have broken bots, are out of the competition, you both like the other two teams a lot, and want them to go to finals. Then you don't shoot, let their shooters score a ball, and let their drivers practice some fancy moves for elims.

RiceRobotica 11-05-2004 13:34

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
If the teams were that close to eachother, then it would definately be a sticky situation. But, FIRST is the only sort of competition that I've seen where somebody can win and the opponents can be genuinely happy for them.

As strategist, I would plan to play the game and play it well. I'd tell my team to do their best. I'd play the strengths of my own robot and team to the weaknesses of the other. I'd hope for the best, but I don't think I could be disappointed either way.

I wouldn't be disappointed because, in the long run, it wouldn't matter who wins. We would still care about eachother as teams, no matter what. The teams would always hope for the other to continue on in the finals. It would pride in the work of a friend.

Both situations, no matter which was chosen, would be best because the teams are able to share in the excitement of it all.

Amanda M 11-05-2004 18:01

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maxlobovsky
I don't mean to start another heated argument, but I'd like to just mention that this might be equated to collaboration between teams (on a large scale, think 254-60 scale). Sacrifices are made all the time in FIRST for the greater goal.


Er... I am completely confused. I have no idea what this has to do with 60 & 254 working together...

In fact, this thread is not really about collaboration. It's more of a collusion thread in disguise. Of course, not that that's a bad thing. It's perfectly acceptable to talk about.

And I still think I'd never go easy on them.

ric2006 11-05-2004 21:26

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
i would go easy if i knew i would get picked. Getting to the next sstage is the most important thing. Sorry, everyone but i am feeling quite ambitious :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ali Ahmed 11-05-2004 21:34

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I would not go easy on them becuase if they were able to goet in &th place they must be preety good even though their alliance is not. For example, most of our matches were played with teams that were not very good and we still scored 100+ points. Every team should play to the best of their abilities.

aaronbr28040 11-05-2004 21:40

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
In going easy you are not being fair to your own team or the other team. I feel that if you give the match to them then your own team has let itself down and you have been unfair to the rest of the teams in the competition. I dont think you should harm their robot, but once you go on the field for competition you can't let your alliance down. What if that match was the one that decided whether your alliance partner would have gotten picked for the finals matches? You never know what implications giving up will have on your alliance partner. I dont think that it looks good on your team or the team you are helping to win if you just give up. Thats just my opinion.
-Aaron

mtrawls 11-05-2004 22:01

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maxlobovsky
I don't mean to start another heated argument, but I'd like to just mention that this might be equated to collaboration between teams (on a large scale, think 254-60 scale). Sacrifices are made all the time in FIRST for the greater goal.

I think there is a rather large distinction that is worth mentioning. The "collaboration" you speak of has the effect to spread the ideas of FIRST ... it fosters the community and brings teams together, and all sorts of goodness, as FIRST has described already. However, letting another team win does none of this. Letting another team win is not collaboration. FIRST said that the collaboration you allude to was good, pointing out that the organization is not about the robots ... but going easy on another team is about the robots, it is about winning a competition. And I hate to rehash it all again, but I'll put my take into it too. Unless the spoils of victory are won honestly, unless they are hard fought for, they mean nothing. If FIRST hands you a championship trophey, will it mean anything to you? No, because a trophey by itself is nothing; the idea is what the trophey represents. Would you want it to represent a hard-fought-for victory, narrowly accomplished ... or a handed-out knicknack? Remember, it is the journey that is important, not so much where you end up as how you got there.

Pat Roche 12-05-2004 08:53

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
When our drive team goes out on the field we go out their to win...no matter who our alliance partner is and who is agianst us. Last year at Annapolis we went against(they were together) the two teams we won the regional with and beat them. In my mind picking a team that can beat you would be to your advantage...then you dont have to worry about them in the elims.;)

-Pat

(InsrtNameHere) 17-01-2006 19:33

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Fair game all the way. And if you lose, then you know that you tried.

Andy B 17-01-2006 19:46

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I am almost ashamed that this question was posted.

That goes against so many things that FIRST stands for.

For example, if this were ANY professional sport, "holding back" like that would be classified as one thing, and one thing only: POINT SHAVING, which just so happens to be illegal.

One of the reasons i like FIRST so much is because of the Gracious Professionalism. This would seem to go directly against that. How could that possibly be gracious to your alliance partners?

Also, FIRST is about showing what YOU can do, not about holding back.

So my answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I also want to say that if anyone asked me to hold back so they could win, even if they would then pick me, I would be disappointed.

From the other side as well, I would also NEVER ask any team I am competing against to hold back in a match. And this just follows in my belief that to be the best, you have to beat the best.

KenWittlief 17-01-2006 19:58

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
The old saying "cheaters never win" means that if you cheat you did not beat your opponent, so you did not actually win

if you throw a match for a sister team, then they have not 'won' the match, it was handed to them

and if they end up in 1st place, they did not earn that position, it was handed to them

and if they win the regional......

you would really have to hold a lot of contempt for your sister team to think they cannot win on their own, to win honestly

how would you feel, if your team won a regional, and later found out that other teams had rigged the event to put you on top?

If someone did that to my team I would be heartbroken. If you Win (capitol W) then that trophy means something. If someone cheats on your behalf then its nothing but 85 cents worth the plastic.

santosh 17-01-2006 20:20

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Although you may be helping your sister team, you are most certainly not doing your alliance partners any justice. Sometimes not playing as hard as you can is a good thing, but in this case it most certainly is not.

spamified88 17-01-2006 20:26

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Going easy is not an option! In fact I think it would be an insult to you sister team to not try to win. Competition at a regional is exactly what it sounds like, competition. On the field everyon has the same goal, to win. Even if it seems hopeless, you should at least go down fighting!

phrontist 17-01-2006 20:26

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
God this thread is old, but here goes.

<devil's advocate>

Are you trying to win a single match, or win a tournament? Winning competitions is in large part about cultivating relations with teams, subtle inter-team politics, and though I've never seen it myself, I'd guess a fair amount of backstabbing. It's part of the game as much as scoring tetras or poof balls is.

So yeah, I'd say always try your hardest to win. Win the compeition!

How is it at all un-GP to try to promote your allies by choosing which matches to do really well in? It is a nash equilibrium (well, it's game theoretic anyway) Mr. Neun!

If you aren't thinking like this, you aren't trying as hard as you can. That's rather un-GP if you ask me.

</devil's advocate>

*twirls mustache, cackles*

DarMagi 17-01-2006 22:09

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
I think you should not go easy on them, you played strong ever other match and lost by a close match, so why not play hard again and give your sister team a run for their money? Seriously, speaking from experience you get more fun out of earning something than it being handed to you. =]

rufu5 17-01-2006 23:34

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Collusion! Nash Equilibrium! MAN, I'm glad I had micro-economics this semester!

Well I'm going to have to hope over with phrontist on this one for the simple chance of an intelligent argument (because its no fun when nobody's arguing :D

So the higher ranked sister team has been doing great all day, is 1st seed, and comes into one of the last matches of the day with you. Their alliance is them, and two robots that have had some "problems" :( we all know how that goes) and your alliance consists of you and two other average to strong robots. They can almost, I mean ALMOST, beat all three of you by themselves, but it comes down to this:

dum dum ... dum dum (does that sound like a heart beat to you :confused:

if you go up onto the ramp, your alliance wins, if you go play "defense" ;) they win (and you know they are going to pick you as their first pick, and their is a very strong chance you will win your division at nationals and have the best shot to win nationals)

so what do you do? huh?

ps. sorry i had to make this so hypothetical and far-fetched, but this is the only way i could stretch this to make you, the average FIRSTer, even consider it :yikes: ... let the intelligent punditry resume!

Uberbots 17-01-2006 23:38

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Are you kidding?
there may be wthical values involved in this, but you just gotta win man. you have to.
you need to strive for perfection and wipe down the weak!
and at the same time, you have to help the weak while you are offstage.

KenWittlief 18-01-2006 10:22

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
if your sister team is 8th and you are 50th, you let them win a match, ok

they goto #1 ranking and you fall to what? 65th?

if the #1 ranked team picks the #65th ranked team in their first draft pick, there is no way you are going home with the trophy, because the #2 team will pick the #3 or #4 team, and by the time your sister teams gets another pick, their choices (with the new rules this year) will be down to the #17th ranked team.

Poetic justice: if you are not playing to win and hand a match to your sister team

and they pick the #65th ranked team (you) then they are not playing to win either. In the end you both loose, and the judges will pick up on this and you can kiss goodby any other awards your two teams might have won.

It would be a looooooooooooooooooooong bus ride home!

dude__hi 19-01-2006 13:27

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
Winning or losing is a bug issue and people have different interpretations of winning. While moving on the finals of a regional by losing a match is still winning I'd rather take a loss in a match and keep my integrity.

Either way you lose but this is what I'd do.

Ianworld 19-01-2006 20:12

Re: Hypothetical Situation
 
The issue of collusion was a much bigger deal in the past. Up until 2 years ago teams were ranked not by their wins but instead usually by some multiple of their opponents scores.(Think the current tie breaking system but for your overall rank) Thus it was often to both teams benefit if the other scored as high as possible. While this can only be taken so far in zero sum games like zone zeal in 2002, in 2003 with stack attack it was taken pretty far. Teams could start with stacks of boxes already set up. Opponents would often agree to each leave their opponent's stack untouched in order to improve their rankings. It was frowned upon to a certain extent but not as much as the collusion presented in this thread has people riled up and angry.

As for this situation, depending on the other teams in involved I would consider throwing the match. It would however have to be a very select group of teams. The other robots in my alliance would have to be poorly functioning or not at all for me to consider it as an option. Also as an aside, you don't get to compete that often, only 8 rounds if you only go to one regional and don't get into the finals. If you're driving you want to go out there and show off no matter the situation.


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