A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

With the advent of the FIRST 2005 season, big changes are in store. Having to qualify to compete at Nationals will change the direction and feeling of the game.

Two schools of thought:
* The competition at Nationals will consist of the higher scoring teams from regionals. This could be much more exciting. More like sports playoffs. Some teams salivate at the thought of moving this whole thing to a new level. Think of what a thrill it would be to qualify. Think of the possibility of thoroughly spectacular matches because most of the robots will be more robust, and more reliable.

Is this a good thing??

* But alas, what about the teams who don't qualify at regionals?
What about the teams who can't build a second bot, or go to multiple regionals to increase their chances?

It's true that we saw some fabulous rookie teams this year. But still, having to qualify to get to Nationals will really keep a lot of teams out of the game.
To have a chance to compete in Nationals has been a highly coveted opportunity over the years. At least with odds/evens, you would get there sooner or later!

So is this then a bad thing??

A little of both maybe. To strive for Nationals can only make us all better, but could the disappointment at not having a chance be disruptive to the existence of a team? Will sponsorship be affected? Will engineering support be affected? Am I being too negative?

Regardless, we're at the beginning of a new era now, and change is inevitable. Wonder how it will all play out?

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Just a thought... but isn't it one of the collaborating teams who won the National Chairman's Award? ;)

With creative thinking, this shouldn't be a dead-end for any team. Go looking outside the box and you'll find a way to get into the Championships (if that is your team's one and only goal).

-erin

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

You still will get there sooner or later with the new tier system. The longer it's been since you went to nationals, the higher tier you are in and the earlier you get to register for nationals.

The even/odd system was equivilant to the tier system, just with only two tiers.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

True, less teams will make it to nationals, but keep in mind how far FIRST has come.

As said in the History of FIRST workshop, "New 'Super' Regionals are becoming like the old Nationals."

In other words, the regionals are what nationals used to be, making nationals even better. Less teams may make it, but those that don't will have had a great time at regional(s) and those that did make it will have a more awesome time at nationals than they ever did in the past.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

The Championships - as they are - are now becoming true Championships. FIRST wants to get more people in the stands at competitions. The grandest of all competitions happened in Atlanta this year. FIRST doesn't sell tickets to the competitions, FIRST doesn't get money from the concessions. Competitive robots bring people back...when people come back...they have a better chance of bringing a sponsorship with them.
Rolls-Royce began sponsoring 234 in 1999. As a rookie team we didn't do well...at all. Rolls didn't care though...they saw the impact of FIRST on our team and came back with more sponsorship.
Competition isn't bad. The fact that all teams can't make it to the Championships isn't a bad thing. This just forces FIRST to make the regionals better, more exciting, and more fun for all teams...that way, if a team can only afford one regional...they don't miss out.

For a while...I've thought that "Championships" should be true finals.
The remaining 1992 teams - that's like 12 teams and can only decline (i hope it doesn't but it could)
Regional winners (3 times 30 regionals (good # for next year) = 90 teams
Regional runner-ups (3 times 30) = 90 teams
Regional #1 and 2 seeds = 60 teams
That's 252 teams assuming no repeats (not likely)

As for deciding other awards...i'm not sure how that would work...i'm still working on it. However, just having representatives from the teams there to talk to judges does make it a little easier on those teams...any ideas on this?

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

That sentiment couldn't have been echoed any better than at the Canadian (Super) Regional this year. As a member of the first ever Canadian team back in 1998, having gone through Epcot, and even received a FIRST scholarship in 1999, there was nothing I wanted more, than to really do well at the Canadian Regional this year.

We even went to Atlanta this year, but I can tell you when our robot was shipped, my focus was truly on the Canadian Regional, not on the Championships in Atlanata.

Doing well at the Championships in Atlanta was like icing on the cake =).

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Actually, 252 is low. Add three for the 2004 champions, and 10ish for the Chairman's Award winners...we're now probably looking at 270-275.

I agree with the notion that the championship should have the best of the best there--normally, that's because of their robot this year, which leads to really exciting matches. Not only does it do FIRST good (in that it makes people think "hey, that's cool, maybe I should give engineering a look-see"), it also does the spectators good (by putting on a mess of a show) and the teams good (by pitting their robots against some of the best from around the country/world).

Although I wouldn't mind in the least seeing teams more able to attend regionalS. Plural. It lets them get more experience in the game, and in how their team operates in competition, both of which lead to better teams.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Engineering Inspiration should *always* be a qualifier, as well as chairman's award.

$0.02

Cory

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I stand corrected. touchee. also...if at all possible...and i know it isn't...but more fields. there were seventy-some teams in our division and of our representatives to newton we never played with or against any of them...that kind of inhaled audibly. I do apreciate the fact that they cut awards on Friday and opening ceremonies on saturday in order to get more matches in (very good idea!!! :) ) it would have been nice to get to play a higher percentage of teams in our division. that's why smaller regionals are so great.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Along the same lines, I think Sportsmanship should be a qualifier as well. We preach Gracious Professionalism...allowing Sportsmanship winners to go is another way to reward those who use it.

Then again, that would just bump the number of qualifying teams up even more...

I don't have much hope for it being included in the qualifying awards, but that can't stop me from wanting it to be. :)

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I remember in 2000, when everyone was eligable to attend nationals, there seemed to be a little more commrodery among teams. Maybe it's just me, but I've seen an increase in the level of competition since the qualification system was put into place. In 2000, it didn't matter if you won or lost a regional, everyone would still get to compete again on the national level. Competition seemed a lot more respectful, and we didn't see or hear about anyone questioning rules or "aggressive" play.

Adding the qualification aspect seems to have increased the need to Win. Otherwise your season is over, and your team goes home to wait for next season (barring off season competitions of course, which were much more scarce back then).

I completely understand the reasoning behind the qualification system, since there is really no way FIRST can accomodate 800+ teams for a single event. However, I can't help but feel it has forced the level of competition up a notch, by taking away the only award every team won by initially entering- the chance to compete again with robots from around the country.

Given that, I liked the even/odd system, and would agree with a tier based system, in the hopes that nationals do not become a "qualification only" event. It's always nice to have something to look forward to after not doing well at a team's only regional.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I don't know why we are inventing a problem that does not exist. This year my team and 60 others were allowed to compete in Atlanta from the waitlist.

SO:

This means that teams from tiers 2-6 did not filll those spots.
Some teams did not know about or forgot to add themeselves to the waitlist.
My team did not qualify for Atlanta in the least and still went along with winning nothing major last year.
As long as your main team contact is on top of things there should be no problems with teams who really want to go.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I am the team leader from 85. I can give you a different point of view. We have been around for 9 years now. We did not qualify for nationals this year so we participated in 3 regionals. We were 6th at Great Lakes, had big problems at Mid-West and then finished 4th at West Michigan. I think we lost by something like 15 total points to get eliminated. We were on the wait list for nationals but didn't get the "call" when space opened up.

It was very hard for us to watch nationals! We wanted to be there so bad and felt like we came so close. I can tell you as the team leader that it is still a daily mission to help the team keep our heads up. The community outside of FIRST doesn’t understand. They expect us to be at nationals and think we "failed" or had a bad year by not being in Atlanta. I know we didn't "fail". I know we had a great season and I know we could have done well at nationals.

The competition will get tougher every year. I expect us to be more competitive next year and I expect everyone else to make more competitive robots. I don't know what we could have done to get to nationals. Some people say you create your own luck. The way things are changing in FIRST I don't think that will be true, as team skill levels get closer.

Please don't think of this as sour grapes. Like I said before we had a great season. I would like to see some way to let everyone who wants to go to nationals plan on it from the start! We knew we had to "win our way" to nationals. To win your way you really need some luck in FIRST and some cash in reserve. We registered for as many regionals as we could afford then put money in reserve for the possibility of nationals. This really changes how you do the business of running a team.

The regional winners do deserve to go to Atlanta. Maybe the people who pay to get in could be in a different division that could fight it out to get to the finals.

I'm not sure how all that would work. I know that we really missed seeing all of you at nationals.

Take care and have a good off-season. We will see you at Kettering in the Fall.


Steve Yasick

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I really appreciate your post Steve - if we hadn't received an at large bid from the wait list I would have been posting those exact sentiments. We had terrible regionals but shined at nationals; I can't imagine staying home.

Does anyone know what sets the limit on teams? Is it hotel accomodations, pit size, number of matches? Isn't there someway we can get everyone there even if we don't compete?

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

This was discussed quite a bit at the beginning of the season this year - and FIRST has made their intentions pretty clear.

With 30 regionals you would have potentially 90 regional alliance winners and 30 regional chairmans award winners - thats 120 teams

if the championship accepts 300 teams that leaves 180 open spots

with roughly 880 other teams around the world who dont win big at a regional, 880/180 = 4.8 - so teams can maybe attend a championship once every 4 or 5 years

which means the way things are this year, every highschool student will at least have a chance of PARTICIPATING in the world Championship for FIRST at least once in their 4 years of highschool

which is more than you can say for ANY other HS sporting or competition event.

obviously when FIRST reaches its goal of every HS in the US having a team, we will no longer be able to do that - but Im sure state and regional championships will happen by then too.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Don't forget that this is assuming no over lap. When there is an overlap, some thems that haven't been in 3-4 years can participate.

One other thing. I went down this year without my team, we didn't qualify, but I volunteered. I had a great time, and even though my team didn't participate, I got to meet other people, and I cheered for thier team. Even if your team cannot participate, I think that you should try to get to Atlanta and watch or volunteer, it was a great experience that everyone should have!

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

FIRST to me has turned into some kinda of monster (HEY!). An unorganized, unprofessional, and overstretched beast. It will only get worse, trust me.

This isn't your daddy's FIRST anymore, boys and girls. It is obvious that FIRST's main goal is no longer to inspire high school students to become engineers/scientists. It is now extremely political and money-oriented. I not saying that these two forces should be absent from FIRST, however they play too big of a role.

FIRST is not heading in a good direction.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

your right this isnt my fathers FIRST, seeing as FIRST wasnt around when my father was in highschool... My opinion on FIRST is exactly the opposite, When you have a differnt game every year, how well do you expect it to be organized, things come up, as the bumper sticker says <explitive deleted> happens no one can plan for everything, you think the first football game was as organized as it is now, you think sports areas concerned about money as they were many years ago when they first started, FIRST is worried about sponsorship, they arent under Dean Kamen's Wing anymore, He wants to see this Organization survive on its own. The Regionals in most cases are now souly run by volunteers I think that is great, now FIRST can focus on giving you the student (atleast i am assuming your a student since you dont have the guts to put a number)

I think that you will find that FIRST is doing a great job with what it has, its growning extremly fast, and giving us tastes of todays modern technology, i think it should be mandatory for Dave Lavery to tell his "Inspirational Story" that he gave during The Cheasapeake Regional's first year, To me thats what FIRST is all about giving kids a chance to build robots with engineers, and Tradesmen and people who can give them insight into what they may want to do

I see nothing "politicaly or money-oriented" about that


-Big Mike the Thouroughly Inspired College Student

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I think that people are forgetting something VERY important: FIRST is a robotics COMPETITION. That means that the best of the best go to the championships.

I don't want to sound rude, so I apologize straight off.

First of all, FIRST can't allow so many teams to compete at nationals. It would be wonderful to have the entire FIRST community present, but time simply wouldn't allow it. If your team wants to go to Nationals really bad, then just jump on the bandwagon with another team that's qualified. That's what my team did. Sam Rix from the team in England flew to Atlanta and tagged along with our team for the weekend.

I know FIRST preaches Gracious Professionalism, and Gracious Professionalism is a wonderful concept. But most teams seem to be it to manipulate any situation to their benefit. FIRST has a wonderful principle. That principle has nothing to do with getting every team in the world to nationals. Just because there is a limit, doesn't mean that they don't love you. It just means that there isn't time to fit in as many matches as the teams want.

Now, I have one small suggestion to make. If your team is worried about being qualified next year, then stop with the post season. Go straight to Pre-season. Start fundraising, start getting community outreach projects going, start prototyping and messing around with different drive trains and chassis. That way, when the game comes, you'll be prepared. You'll already have a base for your robot to build on. Then, build to suit the game.

Every team wants to go to nationals. It's the best FIRST party of the year. But I can guarantee that if you get started working now, and start making a difference in the community now, when it comes time for the next competition season, you'll have a great time playing and you'll have the resources to do so much more in FIRST. It won't matter if you qualify or not. You'll have inspired someone either on or off your team. Maybe both.


And that's all that really matters. Not where you get to go, but what you do. Winning and qualifying is a perk. If you don't make a difference, then it won't mean as much to you.


Just my humble opinion.

Amanda

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

OK OK I admit it - I've been involved with FIRST since '98

and Im just in it for the money! :ahh:

BTW - when do I get my first check? Im still waiting!

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

it's in the mail. :)

i totally agree with Mike's post a few earlier and with Amanda's two before this. I also totally disagree with Silence's post.

"FIRST's main goal isn't to inspire"

What??? :ahh: It isn't?!?!?! Then why, as a high school student, am I sitting at a desk at Rolls-Royce Corporation in Indianapolis working as an intern solely because of my involvement with robotics. Why, while in Arizona, was I offered a job at Sun Microsystems after I'm done with college solely because of my leadership shown on my team? "No inspiration"??? On the contrary my dear Watson...FIRST is all about the "I".

Maybe silence wasn't such a bad thing... :confused:

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I feel that the nationals is going to become a joke. All the good teams are not going to be able to go because of the qulifacation system. Sure you will have the same year winners, but you have that now. IF there is a team out there that has not been to nationals there is a reason for it. I am not trying to take anything away from the rookie or 2 year teams out there but i really do not like the way first is treating teams that have been around for many years and has taken first to the next level. Hell beaty (71) would have not made it next year if they didn't win this years national whats up with that. I hope first sees that they are steping on older teams and stop.

shaun

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Please, watch your language!

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

You have an excellent point: we owe a million and one thanks to the older teams for, in many cases, making FIRST what it is. But should we "discriminate" based on how long your team has been around? If you think about it, FIRST's goal is to inspire students, right? And no one can participate on a FIRST team as a student for more than four years (with rare exceptions). So what's the difference between a four-year team and a five-year team? FIRST isn't catering to teams, it's catering to students on those teams. I think there's a big difference.

I apologize if this offends any of the older teams. I don't deny that you've done many great things for FIRST. But students on rookie and second-year teams, if anything, are in greater need of being inspired.

All these problems with nationals are being encountered because FIRST just keeps growing at an alarming rate. And that can't be anything but a good thing, right?

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

What exactly ARE the rules for qualification this year?

I hope engineering innovation and animation are qualifiers...

:confused:

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I completely agree. Schools just starting up have problems with budgeting because it is a new idea to the community. Business that have not heard of such a competition may be reluctant to donate, and it's difficult to convey to a principal what kind of funds go into making a robot. My team this year had enough funds for only one competition, and barely had the funds for transportation to even get us there. Being a rookie team is not easy, and just because it is the team's first year, it should not automatically disqualify them from being able to compete at the Championship due to not being able to keep up from veteran teams. Like Ben, I was able to drive myself to Atlanta just so I could experience what it is like to be with more talented teams, and was able to meet many other students with knowledge far beyond my own. This would be something I'd wish for other teams just starting up. keep Letting the Rookie All-Star award winner have a chance to compete at the Championship.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Guys i am not trying to say rookie teams should not go to nationals. IF you can earn your way in then great.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Please explain with some detail sir. Since you have said something totally opposing a normal FIRST-ers view-point, explain :)

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

okay people lets pretend for a moment that Dean Kamen didnt say that Life ISN'T fair and that the competition ISN'T fair, lets goto that magical place where money falls from the sky like water falls from a waterfall we will call this place, Make Believe Land, Now in Make Believe Land there is a FIRST team in ever hs in the US, i will say roughly 100,000 just for arguments sake and in Make Believe Land, ever team is allowed to goto nationals, but i hope that everyone is prepared for the 2month nationals, because thats about how long its gonna take, oh by the way in Make Believe land, FIRST will only be around for one year, because it will most like become bankrupt after that first national event ;) so i guess the point i am trying to make is its not Finacially Feasable for every team to goto nationals, why dont you ask your football coach, what he would have to do to make it to the nationals each year ;)

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

In the "Real World" nothing is just handed to you and if your under the gun to get something done, like building a Robot in 6 weeks, its NOT going to be all that organized and i like it that way, think about how much it would suck if everything were dictated, This is a democratic and Capitalist nation here, if FIRST tried to organize everything for you all nice and perfect they would come closer to setting up to be a freakin' commie.

I like the way FIRST is now and i also won't mind the Qualification for Nationals as when the competition gets so big you can't practically hold that many people in one place. the NFL has like 33 teams, we have about 1000, think about it for two seconds please.



And whats the deal with National Chairmans Winners, do they still get to go every year??

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I think you drew the wrong conclusion from the correct observations. FIRST does care about inspiring students, however, it is currently limited by money and politics. Both are very real world issues that EVERY company and organization is limited by.

Do you have any experience running a nationwide organization? How about putting on events that draw 10,000 people? I'm sure FIRST would love to hear your specific constructive critiscm on how to run the events and organization better. In fact, they even give you the team forum to express your views and ideas to the directly.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

If you want constructive ideas to make FIRST better here they are:

1. Enforce the rules for ALL teams. I am tired of seeing rules trampled upon. It was so bad this year, it was complete anarchy in some places.

2. Institute penalties for teams who break rules AND actually ENFORCE them. It was threatened, but never followed. Look, I am not asking for a force of jack-booted FIRST thugs who go around looking for people breaking rules, I just want FIRST to actually practice what they preach.

3. Ban political/ideological figures from FIRST events. This does not include elected or governmental officials, but people like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Bill Bennett, Bill O'Reilly, etc., etc. This adds an unhealthy dimension to FIRST when politics comes into FIRST. Keep it to ROBOTS people.

4. Improve communication with teams. FIRST, along with its suppliers, made it difficult for teams to get information and order parts. Several teams here can testify to the difficulties they had with their KOP.

5. Better suppliers and/or better quality parts in the kit or make the game more suitable to the parts. If neither of these can be done, raise the cost of the kit or put less parts in.

6. Put a muzzle on Dean Kamen. From what I here on this board everyday and from general chatting with FIRST members, Dean Kamen has become totally disconnected from FIRST and its members. It shows in his speeches and "homework" assignments. I know a lot of you worship Dean Kamen like a God, but he really makes himself look like an arrogant, isolated New England plutocrat.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Can we put a muzzle on you instead?

Your disrespect, arrogance, and ignorance are astounding.

If you were put into FIRST's shoes, I guarentee you you wouldn't look at things the same way.

Cory

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

I hate to say it one more time, but please, back on topic.

This was originally a thread about qualifying for the Championship - all discussion concerning changes besides qualifying for the Championship would hit a better audience in separate threads concerning those topics.

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

If he was in FIRST's shoes.
I'd find a new competition to participate in.

John

Re: A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings
 

Nationals were great in 2002 (the only season my team has made it).

Competition (yes, FIRST is actually a competition (I know, yes it is so much more!)) drives performance. I guess that the idea of 'making it' to the National event will inspire teams to raise the bar, so to speak. This, in turn, will provoke more feats of engineering dexterity. Good game.