Getting a headstart?
 

I was just wondering what does your team do to get a headstart on next years competition?

We were thinking about developing a 4wd drive train using the chips, and try to get the most efficiency out of the motors.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Yeah, I've been thinking about this too. Here is a list of stuff I've undertaken during the offseason.

*Recruit!!! :ahh:
*Learn as much as possible about PIC programming, as I want to have quite a bit of extra processing done next year
*Buy/Research/Fiddle with Sensors
*Look for sponsors
*Make a small IR tracking robot, based on this years game. (I didn't get to do it this year, they forgot the parts when they shipped the kit :( )
*Make a general purpose control box with a multitude of switches, knobs, etc.
*Research a new navigational system idea (not my own) that uses an optical mouse with an adjusted focal length to measure movement.
*Convince the tech-staff (who dislike me ;) ) to let me reformat the laptop they gave the team and install linux!

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

I have mixed feelings here. On the one hand, it's necessary to hone one's skills in terms of programming, design, etc. On the other, there's only 6 weeks in the build period for a reason...

I only hope that whatever anyone does in the off-season, they keep Gracious Professionalism in mind, and no one gets started designing/building a robot before the game for next season is even revealed
:cool:

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Don't kid yourself. Every great team starts designing stuff they can use during the build season during the summer and fall. If teams didnt do this, the level of innovation would be far lower than it currently is.

P.S. Why does everyone like to throw gracious professionalism around? It's become a catchphrase more than anything else, imho. Please tell me why it is ungracious and unprofessional to teach students the principles behind drivetrains, mechanisms, programming, etc. Why is it ungracious to have a knowledgebase to work from when the season starts? If you don't work during the offseason, *you're* missing out. You don't get to learn. You dont get to try new ideas.

Do you have any idea how many teams you just called ungracious unprofessional cheaters?

Cory

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Design is perfectly fine. But I do worry when a design becomes a fully assembled mechanism, waiting only for the robot controller and motors from the kit. Sort of defeats the purpose of having only 6 weeks.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

if you need help with the drive train let me know... i got some ideas...

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Many of these become fully assembled mechanism for testing. This is perfectly fine. There are rules against using parts built outside of the 6 week period and I can't think of a case where someone has broken them. People use the summer to build there knowledge for the next season. Read some whitepapers to learn more about different teams ideas. Many of them are designed and tested during the summer. I personally plan to learn more C programming, work on a new drive for next year, work on something possibly showing different applications of pneumatics and possible thought for next year, and maybe research and test new materials to try and use next year.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

one thing i would reccommend to do is train the students interested in the electrical side of the robot. This seems to be the area i have found that there isnt time once build starts you will have time to train people in. One major thing i would reccommend is take a past robot and strip it of its electrical components (wires, victors, spikes, cables, etc...) and after training the students in learning how to wire it, give them a box of the removed parts (or new parts if you have ample supplies) and ask them to try to wire as much as they can (with or with out your help). I know the biggest learning came when i was asked to help rewire an old bot i never worked with from 3 years ago last year.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Of course, it's a great thing to further your knowledge in the off season, but the reason I bring it up is I've heard multiple reports of a team that builds their entire actual robot drive train before kickoff, and just waits for the kit to plug in the motors, the robot controller, and whatever item the game would require them to build, so they end up with a full robot in less than 2 weeks. Sort of irritated me to hear about that, but I guess everyone will play the game their way.

I don't mean to sound negative at all, I just hope people keep gracious professionalism in mind. I plan to use the (object formerly known as edubot) to improve my understanding of C, and I've been closly following all the discussions about new drive trains, and may play with a few things myself.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Well then you shouldn't believe everything you hear.

I heard some team removed their robot from the pits at nats so they could work on it at night!

I heard someone saw a robot being taken inside a hotel!

But I don't believe any of it unless I saw it with my own eyes :)

Luckily most people are honest enough not to do what you describe. A few teams have the resources to take a set of plans and hand them to a shop, and get the finished parts for say a gearbox, arm, etc in the timeframe you just described. Doesn't mean they cheated though :)

Cory

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Excellent, excellent idea. That's one of those things that you reall think, "why didn't i think of that." Now i have a new thing to waste hours a day searching on the internet about. Interfacing a mouse (or part of its hardware) will be a challenge, but wow, that would be cool.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Perhaps you meant maliciously amateure? :D Anyway, yeah. Most of the rumors about teams are untrue. And if anyone/ any team does have maliciously amateur practices, all I care about is that I'm not a part of it. If they don't want to be graciously professional, that is their own choice, it does not concern me nor should it concern anyone else. Just everyone do your best to be a gracious professionalist.

Now, for the issue of building things over the summer and whatnot. I can pretty much just second what Cory said. Nobody uses custom pre-built stuff on a competition robot and learning by doing no matter what time of the year it is, is both gracious and professional. That is how technology advances.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Never!!! ;) Those of you who know me understand where I am coming from...

But I DO have to agree with this point. Re-wiring the robot, or possibly better, starting from scratch with just some motors on a board and wiring that up completely, loading the program, and admiring your work is a HUGE help later on down the road during the 6 week build period. The students will really enjoy building something from scratch... especially the elctrical stuff, because once the program is loaded, it will actually work remotely without having to touch the wires of the motors to the battery terminals! (yeah, we do that too! shhhh!)

Training members before the 6 week build period is probably the single most important thing ANY team can do.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

We are going to add somethings to the robot that we could not do during the build season becuase it might have been against the weight rules and such. We let the newer members do that so they can learn. the more vetren members, like me, will be coming up with a prototype gearbox with team 60 and 254. the reason teams come up with a drive train before kickoff is because that is all you can actually do that can potentially be used on the bot. Sometimes you can't even do that. Foe example, last year nobody knew that they were going to change from 5/8th drills to 1/2 drills or give 2 Atwoods instead of 1 like the year before. But I highly doubt some teams will actually build the drive before and really put that one on the bot. There would have to be some sort of mods for space and such. I don't think that any team will do that just to win a comp.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

I can tell you that our 2004 desing came mostly from the prototype chassis that 254 and ourselves put together in the offseason and competed in the CalGames. We wanted to have some experience working together, and we wanted to try out the six-wheel drive system.
Tht doesn't make us ungracious. We never used any of the parts on our finished robot. We changed some things in our competition design, and we re-machined everything. It just gave us practice. As long as there are no parts added from outside the build period, then there is no violation of any rule in FIRST. It's all about advancing technology, and it's hard to do that in only six weeks a year.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Ok, this year was our third year in first and two of the three robots had 2wd and the 2003 robot B.O.B had 4wd and we liked that much better. But we used the drill motors and kept burning them up. So this year we went to the chips 2wd and had no problems with them at all, but mobility and precision turning was lost. So next year no matter what the game is the robot will have 4wd using the chips. And i am sure we will need some help.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Build a prototype and when it comes down to the 6 weeks rebuild using the prototype as as a blueprint. And the same thing with the computer code. write a code with last years robot and modify that code for next years robot. That is simply using research and development.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

And we are while the drive train sub team is buildind a 4wd drive system the rest of the team besides programing will be building a cart and crate for the robot next year that will implement all of our sub teams skills and we will use this as training. And the drive train will be used to make the cart mobilized.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

yes, a team may only need the motors to pop in and hook up the rest of the electronics and they can drive, but what about the game itself?? what if the drive train they made of the off-season isnt up to the new rules of 2005, or the motors they intended on using are not allowed, or what if the drive train built won't help the team with what they hope to accomplish in the game next year. There are so many things you can throw around with "if this, if that" in the rules and the game, that an ultimate drive train that's created and work for this years game, may be worthless for next years.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

I completely agree. In fact, I think FIRST did just that with this past season by changing the drill motors a bit, and including a second atwood motor. However, the teams that do fabricate full drive systems in the offseason have a huge advantage over other teams who don't have the resources to work year round, especially rookie teams (assuming of course, that the drive system is compatible with the current year's game). I can't say it's not fair, because if the resources are avaliable, there's no reason not to use them. And there's no better time to develop incredible machines than when not under the pressures of time constraints.

I don't have anything at all against off-season creativity. Inspiration is a year-round job, and from what I'm seeing here, everyone seems to be doing a great job with it! Just like an athlete training in the off season, all it can do is benefit you.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

What is this about including a second Chiaphua motor? There were always two. Except that in 2002 the output shaft was splined like a gear and in 2003 it was switched to 8mm plain with 2mm keyway.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

I thought of doing that but then I realized that the light might not be modulated and that would be a serious flaw with the sensor. Since it would face interferance with the IR beacons.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Hmmm...

I don't think thats an issue. How would more IR light interfere with the mouse operation? I highly doubt that a puny IR beacon could shine so brightly it would "overexpose" the mouse's CCD. Am I missing something?

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

Never mind. I realized that interfearence would be minimized since the thing is pointed towards the ground.

Re: Getting a headstart?
 

We are looking forward to students designing transmissions and drive trains. We are probaly just going to be designing until the 6 weeks because if you start to build then we have found out changes are in store and you end up behind where you started from.. We also will be working on programming our last years robot as a practice for designing better auto programs.. But thats all the robot stuff we will be doing, we will be doing many presentations, summer camp, and many fundraisers. We never stop even though sometimes i wish we would/could but we do this because its fun and it is.
Nate