Draft..
 

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/...ua_congressorg

Eh.. Thoughts?

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Well, it would give me something to do while I am out of work cause the US economy sux so badly.

But seriously, I wonder what each of the presidental candidates would think/vote on this issue?

That would definately sway my voting stance.

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I agree. I would most definitly not vote for anyone that would reinstate the draft. I think it's a pretty interesting thing that they're trying to cover it up with election year things. It's pretty sad, since a lot of FIRSTers I know are in that age range. I honestly hope nothing goes through.

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oh snap...good catch, i went ahead and forwarded it too.

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Guys, I really think we should all write letters to our representatives concerning this issue. I am. =/

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I am writing one as well. Being the pessimist that I am, I'm honestly afraid it would go through. If it did go through hypothetically, what would people do...? I think I would personally, if it were an option, vote to be put in a medical position, like running bandages or something. *shrug* it's practice.

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It's part of being an American, standing proud for who you are - no matter if you believe it is right or not. You are in this country, and you should stand by her for everything she is going through, and everything she is worth. I know the struggles all to well, and have great pride to be here in the glorious country - as I know others on here will have similar thoughts as I.

Yes, it does scare me, that old classmates may go (many have already willingly been sent), family members may be drafted, and I may even lose my soul mate. But its a beautiful country, and I would be happy to do everything possible to stand by her.

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While this is your constitutional right, and a great thing to do IMO, I would be more obliged to write a letter to the local, or national news station and get some press on this issue, since a) your representative probably already knows about this, b) the letter to the news station would get some media attention to this issue which is what the people in congress trying to enact this law are trying to avoid by covering it up under the presidental election year.

Forward to the news, and see how long it takes for everyone to write to their representative, and uncover this issue.

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I did not mean to say that I do not love this country. I mean more to say, that I among many people that I know do not support the action taking place in Iraq. I admire your pride in the country, though I must say I believe that a draft isn't an appropriate action at this time in our country's history. If I were drafted I would refuse to fight, for religious moral and personal reasons.

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Sorry, wasn't atacking or directing it towards anyones post. Was moreso just a statement and opinion towards the article from Congress as a whole.

... I hope no one takes it as an offense.

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For fear of turning this thread into a heated debate, I am going to agree with that statement 100%.
It is not a good time to reinstate a draft when more than 50% of polls I see on the news do not support the "war" in Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter.
And it's not that war is not a good or bad thing, obviously in a perfect world there would be no wars, but this one in Iraq has gotten out of hand.

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Good point Elgin, though if there was a debate to start I would cut and run, because I think the debate over Iraq is never going to stop. My question was more, what would you do if drafted, even if you didn't support the war? Fight? Medicine? etc...Engineering? ^^

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Yeah, the thought of a draft is something that scares me. This draft bill is set for Spring 2005, and I turn 18 in June 2005. Really I don't support the war (not to make a debate out of this thread), and I my own personal morals are against killing of almost any kind, including war. Also, there is no longer the option of college students being able to "dodge" the draft.

My 2 cents

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Here is a copy of the actual bill submitted to the senate. A duplicate bill was submitted to the house. Currently, both are pending commitee approvals.

http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.89:

-Bill

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What are the conditions for getting out of the draft/moving lower on the list?
Since I was not alive when the draft was implemented during Vietnam, I am not familiar with the rules. I know you can be excused for medical reasons, and I am aware of something about students. Can somone explain more on the student issue?

If a draft was passed, I would start to 'set things up' in Canada. No, really, I'm not kiding. I'm not going to fight for, what I believe are, the wrong reasons. I'm also not going to jail for the same.

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REad through the article for better info, but there is no longer a way for students to dodge the draft, and anyone who has been drafted will be kept from fleeing to Canada through more extensive border control. And pretty much everyone from ages 18-26 gets drafted, except the really really rich.

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Thousands of bills never make it to the president each year, thousands of bills never make it out of committees each year either....I seriously doubt they'll pull this off and pass this....Every few years this issue gets brought up and is eventually killed...in fact I think they've tried at least 3 different forms of that bill since military action began against Afghanistan...it will never pass.

If they do, ill have to maintain being 25 pounds underweight so I qualify for the physical hardship clause.... :ahh:

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Ah, that was the point in the article I skipped over.

Is it just me or does it seem the at US is keeping us trapped in our own country? You can't leave if there's a draft, you can't go anywhere else any other time because 'they may harbor terrorists' or they may hate americans. Now there would be required activities. What happened to freedom?


And I don't think I can achieve 25 pounds over weight. That would probably mean I need to gain at least 50 pounds. :)

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First of all, everyone is getting worked up over nothing. The draft will never pass. If it did, America as a whole would riot. The american public might support a draft uf say WWIII starts and the united states is directly threatened. I mean ships and planes coming towards our borders and our freedom is actually at risk, not the crap they feed us about our freedom being in danger from Saddam's weapons.

I would fight if the US was being invaded. I would not fight just because the president believes a place like Iraq or Vietnam is a risk to the security of our country.

If the U.S. wants to exercise it's strength as a superpower and attack countries in aggression, I refuse to support, or be a part of that effort.

Would I go to jail? I don't know. I can say I would, but nobody really knows until it happens...

I know one thing. I absolutely will not kill people because the President of the United States tells me that they're bad.

$0.02

Cory

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I agree with Cory that this bill will not be signed into law. With support for the war in Iraq at an all-time low, it would be political suicide for many congresspersons and senators to try to push this through. This isn’t to say that no one will try, but it won’t succeed. This isn’t the right time, and these aren’t the right circumstances, and these aren’t the right wars that should require our country to conscript soldiers.

<tangent>I don’t see our soldiers as fighting for our country’s survival in Iraq or even in Afghanistan anymore. Does anyone believe that the people in Afghanistan are any better off under warlord control than under Taliban rule? Do people believe that the situation in Iraq will so drastically change between now and June 30 so that the US government can relinquish sufficient control to the Iraqi governing council so as not to appear to be ruling Iraq like a “conquered” territory? This has turned into two giant messes when it could have just been one (Afghanistan) to focus on. Who called it? http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=14696 </tangent>

Here are some of my feelings… I don’t think I would ever volunteer for the armed services. Combat doesn’t seem to be my calling in life. I sure as hell wouldn’t volunteer to go to war without some sort of undeniable evidence that my country and my way of life was at risk of being annihilated. I would allow myself to be drafted if another country was hell bent on destroying this country and it was “us or them.” But I will not allow myself to be drafted into the situation that we are in. I will not risk my life for a lie or an “intelligence error.” I believe very strongly that I am justified and right in feeling this way. If I’m sent to prison, then I will serve my sentence, but there’s always a way out of the country and I would probably explore that option first if need be.

Mad props to Cory ;)

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I'll make it simple. If there are enemy soldiers/planes/boats/dinghies coming this way, pass me a gun. That's just plain ol' self-defense, which is fine in my book. They're taking it to you, and you're fighting back.

But physically moving people over to a hostile situation doesn't lend itself to the self-defense defense IMHO. You're taking it to them.

Personally, I hate war. You will not see me fighting in a war, unless it falls into that self-defense category above. Hence why I'm getting into the field where the worst battle is dodgeball--elementary education.

By the way, if I recall my reading right, the way the draft works is that they have two sealed drums with balls in them. One has every day of the year, the other has numbers one through 366 (leap day). They draw one date and one number from each of the drums. So if May 20 was drawn first, but the number drawn was 362, then people born May 20 would only get drafted once everyone in that age from numbers 1 through 361 were picked. Once the order is set, 20-year-olds get picked first. Then they go to the 21-year-olds, then 22, then 23, and so on and so forth, with 18 and 19-year-olds being the last to get picked.

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I agree with all the previous posts about fighting in a war. In any war where my country was being attacked, and my family was in danger, I would definitely fight, but a war half a world away for a cause that doesn't affect me, that's not something I see worth fighting for.

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You mean there's a thread on our modern military actions, and you didn't invite me? :p

One problem: not all of us are proud to be an American these days. And unfortunately, our President essentially represents every American citizen weather we like it or not. So if I go somewhere that hates the US, I'm automatically hated myself. And, it doesn't help that Americans tend to always think we're the best at everything. Problem number two: our military might isn't as great as we think it is, our sportsmen and women aren't the best, hell, we aren't even number one in technological advancement (believe it or not, we are far down the list). My point: I am proud of people, but not it's entity.

Now, I love military history, strategy, and technology. It's just who I am. And while being a fighter pilot would be wicked awesome (very cool, for those who don't speak New Englandese), I would never volunteer for the United States military (note that I only said United States). Now, one exception (and I don't think you'd call it an exception, as this would fall under "basic life"): if we were attacked (and even then, there'd still be some scrutiny on the definition of "attacked"). If me or someone close to me is physically threatened, I will defend. That's also just who I am (yay, hero complex!). That being said, I'll probably never be joining up. Of course, I suffer from one problem myself: I'd make a pretty decent soldier. I'm big (not to be confused with tall), I have good aim, and I know my tech. So that brings me to this next thing:

Agreed. I personally don't think the draft would pass (although if it does, I'd love to see what those pro-war citizens think once they're the ones fighting). If it does, I'll be leaving this country for good (I hear Sweeden could use a FIRST team). A person should not be forced to fight for something that he doesn't believe in. Our country was built on fighting for what you believe in. Forcing us to fight for a cause we don't believe in is simply un-American, and downright hypocritical. And to be fair, I also don't think a draft should be done even if we were invaded. Again, if someone doesn't believe in the cause of defending ourselves, then they shouldn't have to fight it. Of course, if we were invaded, I'm sure we'd have plenty of willing volunteers to defend their homeland, so that's almost a moot point.

Conclusion: yeah, I'm not too big a fan of our government. We should not be in Iraq, I have mixed feelings on the invasion of Afghanistan, being in the Balkans was very questionable, and don't get me started on Vietnam. Now, my biggest point of the day: I turn 19 about a week before election day. I have a certain right. It's called voting. In case you couldn't tell, I'm not voting for Bush (and it should be noted that Kerry will probably get Rhode Island anyway, so I'll probably be voting for an Independent). If you are over 18 (and I know a lot of us FIRST veterans are), you gotta vote. And I'll even be frank on this. One vote doesn't matter. It's the voice behind that vote that matters. Make your voice heard.

So, how 'bout them Red Sox?

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I see that exactly as one of the major flaws within America's society today. Being that American's are not proud. If individuals will not stand up for what our original founders wanted us to represent, then why do people continue to flock here? Why do individuals stay here? America is about freedom. I see opportunity after opportunity, I was fortunate enough to be one of the first few generations of my family to be born here, and I would die for her. She provides so much to so many, yet so many will not provide for her. I think they need to have an emphasis in the new draft write up that ALL Americans holding citizenship will be drafted.

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Last I checked, the original founders fought to get away from a tyrant 3000 miles away. So we invade Iraq (for no real reason other than oil and to reelect Bush), and set up a puppet government. Not much different if you ask me.

On a side note, this is a very good debate we're having here. :)

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Thankfully, being proud of our country at all times isn’t a necessary precondition for being an American citizen. I believe that blind love and not questioning authority are more of a threat to this country than almost anything else. If you just go with the flow you’re just going to get your rights taken away (Sedition Act of 1918, Patriot Act, etc.), or you’ll end up fighting in some desert or jungle at the very best to save face to the rest of the world.

If you want to talk about standing up for what our founding fathers stood for then why do political parties exist after George Washington warned against them in his farewell address? The world has changed in many ways since 1776 and we should not be confined to the ideas and ideals of the 18th century. Doing so would only doom our country to fall sometime in the future. We must always adapt.

There are lots of reasons people come to America. A lot of people flock to America for better wages than they would make in their old country. They also come to America to practice their religion in the way that they want, and not just to the point that their old country allows. People come for better education for their families. This just scratches the surface of reasons people come here, but I don’t think people are always coming to America just because they think we’re doing the right thing with regard to the rest of the world. It would be a foolhardy mistake to believe that a country’s legal and illegal immigration rates equate to how well liked or supported that country is by the rest of the world.

America provides some limited assistance to those in need, but apparently second chances for all is not what America is about. If America was dedicated to assisting those in need there would be government sponsored healthcare for everyone inside our borders, the credit card companies and banks wouldn’t be allowed to push a “Bankruptcy Reform” bill through congress that would gut bankruptcy and make it impossible to get out from under the draconian shadow of MBNA, CitiGroup, et al. There are lots of problems with our country and the worst things that could be done are to ignore them, just talk about how great we are, or assume that things are good enough and shouldn’t need to be changed.

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Dear Canadian Teams,

Anyone want a mentor? :D


Nah, with all due respect, those who support the war should be the first to go, then those who don't. If you want America to be in 5 countries fighting wars, then YOU should go and help. I'd happly support America, but not when it takes my citizenship for granted for the persut of money.

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I think that you guys are worried about something that won't happen. What is the likelihood of this draft?

Here is a better question:

Who authored and sponsored these bills and what is their intent?

Without even looking, my guess is that the authors are from the far left and the far right sides of the political spectrum. Both the anti-war (left) and protectionist (right) movements would have reasons to start the draft: they both want us out of Iraq right now.

I would be very suprised if I am wrong here, but please point it out if that is so.

Andy B.

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It's a really interesting subject, American identity. I'll have to confess and say, frankly, I don't have much. Yes, I live here, but I'm a first generation American (I think? Born in Russia...) and my loyalties are too liberal for war and such things. My main question is how can we have an american identity if we're constantly prejudiced against our own people, be they of any gender, race, etc etc. I don't see how a person can push pride in a country if there isn't pride in all the people of the country.

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Actually, I believe first-generation means the children of immigrants--your case seems to be immigrant. (My only reference is my grandmother, whose parents came from Ireland...and she's first-generation Irish.)

But back to the topic.

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I for one, would welcome the draft. And thats coming from a 19 year old male, soon to be 20.

My reasoning is this: I am very much against the current actions of the military. Both moraly and pragmaticly. Unfortuntly, enough of the US is willing to at least give a tacit aproval for these wars, and thats all it takes.

The draft takes away the luxury this country has of treating the militray as just another paid service. If we pay them enough, they'll do our bidding and we reap the benifits. When you, or a loved one, is drafted and forced to fight, I think it will cause a real introspective look by Americans at what we deem worth fighting for. I suspect that whatever reasons Bush is now preaching as the real reason we invaded Iraq won't be on the short list of things American parents are willing to send their sons off to die for.

Also, I don't view the prospects of the draft being reinstated as low as some others. There was a time when no one thought the US would invade Iraq, because even Powell was telling Bush it was a bad idea. But, warmongering is a paticular trait that this adminstration has shown its self to be very good at. I won't be to surprised if I get called up for the draft.

-Andy A.

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That is a really really interesting thought Andy A. Just to ask, do you think there is an effective way beyond the draft to achieve that kind of effect, or are we in such a military position that only the extreme is possible now?

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Andy brings up a good point, and it makes me wonder. What if the US had a mandatory service policy like many other countries have? This would not require all 18-24 (or whatever) year-olds to enlist in the military, but it could make them (or positively reward them) to enlist in some sort of governmental service. If a person did not want to go into the military, they could choose to register for park service, highway service, or education service. (edit - this would be for a 1 or 2 year service)

This would require a broader scope of America to be involved with "doing time" for the government.

I am not sure what I think about this, as I tend to think that less government is better (the partial-Libertarian in me). I am just thinking out loud and wondering if this "alternative" sort of draft would be better to have as a continual thing.

Stirring the pot,
Andy B.

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Forced work for the government starts to go more socialist than what even a liberal like me would want.

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Reminds me of some of Heinlein's books. Serve 2 years for the government, and you get to be a "citizen" (which is sort of like a noble class) and get to vote. Granted, this is going back a little too close to the old fuedal systems. Then again, I'm also one who thinks socialism/communism is good. Well, at least on paper.

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Aside from kicking Rumsfeld and all his cold war croonies out of the Pentagon?

I don't know, honestly. While I like to think that a democraticly held goverment would result in fewer wars (and it probably would) I can't imagine that the US would really assume the role that it should.

Things in the US have to change. It's a cultural thing, not a policy thing. So that means that its not a matter of voting for one canidate or the other. They are all basicly the same on the issues that matter (to me, at least). I wish I knew how to effect this kind of change with out having to get shipped over seas, really.

But then, I've never been much of an activist. To cynical to be taken seriously.

-Andy A.

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Whatever happened to the bilateral military programs that the United States has? Why can't those be used? I know that the Philippines has the Balikbatan effort with America, in which its objectives are to encourage improvement, readiness, and interoperability in the military forces of both nations: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...balikbatan.htm

I think the situation we are in certainly calls for the use of such forces. Even though I am against the war, I support our troops, be they purely American, or in conjunction with other nations.

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Also, does anyone find it odd that not a single news organization has pounced on this. The liberal ones would be all over this if it was true. Also did anyone actually read the bill. Probably not. It says you don't have to join the military.
There!!!! Im tired of people instantly forming opinions without doing research. It took me five mintues to find both bills. Though according to those bills even becoming a conscienscoius objector wont even save you. They'll find something for you to do.
How are they going to do that when they can't even stop the soilders all ready in the army from fleeing to Canada?

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To the first part of your post, yes I realize that it doesn't say you have to join the military (coast guard, etc. are options), however I am not sure as to whether the draft would allow you to pick for yourself.

As to last part, that's my post you're referencing, and what I mean is that security measures as signed by the Canadian Foreign Minister(?) and Homeland Secretary Tom Ridge would go into effect to have a GREATER effort to stop draftees from fleeing to Canada. Of course, there are always ways around it, as the US should have learned by now from some of the successful illegal immigration that does go on in this country.

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Well according to the bill it does. It says either join the military or do something as a civilian. Also I think these bills are dead.

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Just to back this up...

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It's interesting how a lot of those "alternate professions", not just the ones listed like healthcare, but also engineering in the army would be used more than likely by draftees to gain work experience. Would it be a choice? For example, would clearing landmines with autonomous mode robots be a replacement for military service? It saves our soldiers lives, at least.

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http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR00163:
I'd just like to point this out though. These bills haven't even made it past their commitees. According to these websites the last major thing to happen to them happened over a year ago.

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If America is looking for peacekeeping forces, the United Nations has resources for those. If it is looking for translators/nurses/doctors as well, the UN Development Programme and the World Health Organization can provide. It is just a question of whether or not we choose to take hold of what resources are provided - after all, our involvement in the UN is about working multilaterally.

Personally, I believe that we have the capability to do somewhat of a better job working multilaterally. Don't get me wrong, I love our nation :). But I feel that the resources ARE out there (take the Balikbatan forces I mentioned earlier) to provide an alternative to the draft, a concept which many Americans in fact do not agree with.

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It's that joyous cliche time: "Two heads are better than one"

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The UN is a failure and the most corrupt international organization in the world.


-

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I have faith in the UN. There have been a few instances in which we doubt its capabilities (consider the controversy over the aid it has provided within the last year), but there is no reason to attack it or call it corrupt on that basis. In the half-century that the UN has been around, it has accomplished much more good than bad - check www.un.org for a listing of some of these accomplishments.

If we look the services of the NGOs that I had mentioned, or others such as the International Red Cross, we can see that they indeed have proven to be successes. They provide resources, where there are none.

Also, multilateral action is not limited to the functions of the UN. The UN is simply an example of how such action would be achieved. With this, an alternative to the establishment of the draft can be found.

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With the exception of , of course.

In all seriousness, the UN's biggest flaw/failing is that it is constantly at the mercy of anyone who happens to use their Security Council veto to their exclusive political advantage. (And yes, I realize that the "Superpowers" of the mid 1940s would never have signed on, if they didn't have this veto capability.) If the Security Council vetos weren't used so flippantly, maybe the UN could actually act on the motions voted for in the General Assembly.

And like Lisa says, when it does act, more good than harm tends to be done, though obviously it makes mistakes.

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Yes, I can agree to that part, but the problem is when it acts. Many times the UN is needed to step in, but it basically gets brushed away..its become more of a puppet organization if anything...

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I know this bill won't be passed... simply because of the times we live in and the fact that we're the ones on the assault. So, I'm really not worried about being drafted, and quite frankly I don't know if I'd want to go along with the idea of fighting a war I'm not entirely too sure about yet. I admire those who fight, but I don't feel I have the physical or mental strength to partake in what's happening in Iraq right now.

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I'd allow my self to be drafted. Some may be aginst the draft for some reasion - but the way I look at it - I'd sign up for it in a heart beat for my kids and my future of living here....

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apparently few read the article

THEY ARE NOT REINSTATING OR ACTIVATING A DRAFT.

For goodness sakes. they are proposing an upgrade to the draft system:

"to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, INCLUDING WOMEN, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes."

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. "

its not even a big deal

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Hwello,

Until recently, I was registered as a conscientious objector. However I received a letter a short time ago (Apr 26) stating that my status as a conscientious objector was being revoked due to "the situation in the country". They mention that I can appeal the decision, and my appeal is currently somewhere in the "system".

Until I got that letter, I seriously doubted that the draft was imminent. However I am not so sure nowadays...

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From sss.gov,
You might note that most politicians flirting with the draft idea are democrats (and are in quite a minority, too). Take what conclusions from that you will. :rolleyes:

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unfortunately they are talking about reinstating the draft although the legislation does not call for the draft itself


its not what the legislation does but its purpose is preparation for the draft later

also the sss.gov site isnt gonna tell you that they are going to reinstate the draft until they are sure...what else do politicians and political affiliates do besides deny stuff?

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key word 'activate' is missing.

newbie.

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Oh, believe me, politicians have another favorite game. They say stuff that will get their opponets in trouble with the easily swayed masses. Bush, Rumsfeld, etc., have said that no draft is needed. But, nah, we can't trust the guys in charge of the war. Let's instead trust what a few fringe democrats are saying, because they have no external motive whatsoever and also happen to be privy to what the generals are saying they need.

The whole idea of a draft seems pretty ridicilous to me. We're handing over power pretty soon. We're training Iraqis at a quick rate. Our whole plan is in getting an Iraqi face in the battle (and on our side, at that!). Think about what a draft means -- it would take some time to get through congress, it would take some time to send the new recruits through boot camp, plus special training for urban warfare ... not to mention that the issue likely wouldn't come up until after the election, meaing, what's the point of sending in so many more Americans so many months down the road, especially when that's just the time we want Iraqis to begin taking care of themselves? New troops without experience, lacking much of the training of those there now, and, most notably, Americans, more than a few of which don't want to be there -- does that sound like it would somehow improve the situation? When working in politics, look at the source of the information, look for external motives ... and think through the issue. Why? Well,

I'll tell you. They do the stuff that they need to later deny. That's what.

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That's odd because they were on the news stations telling everyone what they were going to do. Arrggg.... all I remeber the guy saying that it was related to something that was being done during the nineties. Omg.. I found it. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...3_draft13.html

http://draftresistance.org/more.php?id=16_0_1_0_M
I knew there was no reason to worry unless you knew how to speak arabic or work with computers.

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you are really smart and I really respect your opinion!!

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I knew there was no reason to worry unless you knew how to speak arabic or work with computers.[/quote]

There go the programmers... :rolleyes:

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It's always offensive to me how a person that is not a citizen of the United States may be drafted to fight for rights and the freedom which he may not have anyway. The same applies to African Americans prior to and during World War II along with other minority groups, including homosexuals.

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Honestly, if congress did pass the draft and it went on to the president, and was activated, I don't believe that the American population would stand for it. Iraq resembles Vietnam, we are there even though it doesnt pose a direct threat to our country (people arent attacking us). Loads of people didnt want us in Vietnam, and the same goes for Iraq. If the draft was activated, there would be a very large amount of people that would not go along with it. If it were an attack on the US itself and the war was in self defense, it would be a different story.

I do not have an opion whether or not we should be in Iraq, but I do know that I am completely against making people fight. People are in charge of their lives, not our government. This country is supposed to be a place of freedom right? So why would they send people against their will to what could be their death. If they need more people, then send the people who actually support this war.

If it was activated, and I was called up, I would opt for non-combatant service. I am against killing people. I dont like war. Weapons scare me, the closest thing I have held to a weapon is my leatherman, and even holding that with one of the blades out scares me sometimes. I would not have a problem serving my country, but only in a non-combat way. I am looking forward to my future, getting through college, getting married, and having a family. I dont care to loose all of that because the government screwed up and bit off more than they can chew.

Besides, look at one very important piece of information. The Iraq power handover from US to the new government is still set for June of this year. So if we are no longer in control of Iraq, the number of troops we need there would not be as large as it is now, so the draft wouldnt be needed.

I dont know whats going to happen for sure, all I know is that I am going to live my life the happiest and fullest I can in the present, and not worry about the future until it gets here.

But I think I'll go with DJ on this one and stay 20 or so lbs underweight.

Re: Draft..
 

I don't want to go too horribly off-topic and get into a political rant ... but since this is chit-chat, I'll endulge myself a little :yikes:!

People certainly attacked us on 9/11. They attacked the uss cole. Terrorists certainly are planning other operations against us. Whether you agree we should have gone in there to start with or not is somewhat irrelevent at this point ... because the terrorists have made Iraq somewhat of a central staging ground. Certainly we are fighting against terrorists, and they are attacking us when they can (ahem, Nick Berg was American, no?). If we leave now then the terrorists would become very much more dangerous and pose a direct threat to us -- I don't think you can really dispute that (maybe you don't think that would've happened before we invaded, but now that we've invaded, that certainly seems to be the case). Do you think the situation would improve if we left Iraq to shambles, allowing it to foster even more terrorist organizations?

The war on terrorism is in self defense. We were blind-sided, and now we are fighting back. I realize some people don't agree with how the whole Iraq mess started ... and don't like where it's ended up. But surely you can see that the current situation in Iraq would foster anti-US terrorism if we left, allowing the radical sects to grow unchecked. And I'm sure there'd still be a large portion that wouldn't want to fight to defend their country. That is insubstantial. Further, there is no draft. It is illogical. But, as always, people like to lean on emotional, albeit insubstantiative arguments.

This country is supposed to be a place of freedom -- the draft is about keeping it that way in the gravest of circumstances. *We are not nearing a draft. Please calm down.* If our country is in dire threat, it certainly has a right to compel its citizens to defend it, admiteddly, though, this right must be used sparingly and only when other methods have been exhausted. Again, we are not nearing a draft. Yes, people are in charge of their lives, to a certain extent. The draft is about keeping it that way, not taking it away.


The president has repeatedly said we will not back out when we hand over power. We will have a continued presence in Iraq. We will provide security. We will stay there at near current levels for the time being, but we are not nearing a draft. The resons for this have been listed in my previous posts ... and do not include the hand over of power (in the sense you intimate, anyway).

The debate in Iraq is complicated enough, and there aren't any easy answers ... but the whole thing gets muddled up when dealing with false information or faulty reasoning based on misleading information. Sorry if I seem to be taking it out on you; I just don't like the growing amount of misinformation I've noticed (elsewhere, and by other people).

Re: Draft..
 

Very good points mtrawls.

I see what you mean about how it can be considered as self defense, I guess it depends on how you look at the whole thing. I see it as it isnt 10% necessary to have that many troops there, some is good, I understand the reasoning for having them there, but to the extent of having to draft people is too much. Yes I know that there isnt going to be a draft.

I guess I should have deon more research on post-power handover, thanks for proving me wrong so I dont make the mistake again.

PS dont apologize, I know you arent "taking it out on me"

Re: Draft..
 

I highly doubt that the draft will start again, i think that it may just be propaganda by the left wing extremists so that kerry will look better. We do have a lot of troops there anyways and once the power is turned back to the iraqi people then we may get out of thier, if that is the new gov't wishes.

PS. Im Green Party... dont get me wrong!

Re: Draft..
 

hey... they gotta do what they gotta do to protect this great country... if there was no one to protect us then we would not be America but probably a colony of another country like we use to be... but I highly doubt that it will come back...