Using non joystick controls with Operator Interface (Hacking Various Controllers)
 

Question: Has any atempted to use a non-joystick to control the robot? (Data must go through OI!) It doesn't have to compete or work, you just need to tell us about it.

Examples: Mice (Serial, PS/2, or USB), Game Controllers (XBox, PS2, Dreamcast, N64, GameCube, Super NES :p , ...), or anything else NOT designed for a gameport.

Stories, descriptions, and links are apreciated!

Those of you feeling ambitious can write a White Paper or a How-to.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

I've actually seen a steering wheel (I think it was 587 or 578) and I'm also planning to create a gas pedal system. I also thought about a GameCube controller, but I don't think their data packets are the same. Really, with the GameCube (or any other controller) though, and I'm thinking of doing this for my team, you could just strip the contoller of it's electronics and wire your own stuff for the serial ports, with simple buttons and such, but I'm not sure you how to do the joysticks, however.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Hey, maybe even a FIRSTwiki entry?
:D

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

I was thinking maybe you can use the EDU for serial to Ana/Dig conversion. Is this legal? And does it work?

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

for my lego creations, ive hand made all of my controls.
i just get a bunch of resistors and arrange them so a switch or button runs a current with different voltage. (the lego RCX senses different voltages) and can use that as input. resistors you can find in any kind of old electronic device so its cheap. actually, free. just go aound saying youll take anything electrical that they dont need. youll be suprised how much junk people have.. :ahh:

and also not that its really probable for awhile, but controlling a robot with a touch screen would be COOL!!!.
have a field on the screen and touch a point on the screen and the robot moves to there. crab drive might be useful for this. omnis too.
oh the possibilities!

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

it is portable. Haven't you heard of a tablet PC?

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Is it legal? If the 2k4 rules hold, then yes. It's pretty much open range for controls, as long as you don't break any other rules in the process.

Would it work? That's the part I dunno...but it seems within the realm of possibility.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

A few years ago I interfaced a Playstation dualshock controller to a Basic Stamp 2. Wasn't too bad - it uses SPI, but the documentation on the net for the vibration motors was too sketchy to figure out analog control for them.

-Brandon Heller

Gateway Team 931
Blair Robot Project 449 Alum

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Ok, so I'm not gonna yell at you to search before you post, cause you are asking for different applications but...

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22845&highlight=Sega+Genesis+Cont roller

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

yes this has been discussed but just like to add a team in the newton divison called ET not certain of there number but they used a actually phone to control there arm it was really cool like 2 was up 5 was grab or something like that it was really cool and the kid was really good at it they were picked for a alliance but i dont know how far they went

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

It was a general question. I just listed what I thought of. To get an idea just how ambitious people are about controls.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

i was actually considering using a PS1 duel shock that i have left over because it seems that joysticks aren't very intuitive anymore, but everyone has used a PS2 or Xbox or gamecube controller and would more than likely be more efficient with one. The reason i didn't is because someone told me that you could only use the joysticks, so the controller would have just been confusing and illegal... But please i would still like to do it if you could go to a competition with a PS2 controller and use it, if this person misspoke when i was talking to them.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

The person misspoke.

AFAIK, you can pretty much whatever you want with the OI and control system, as long as it's safe, doesn't block anyone's view, and doesn't break any rule in the manual de l'année. That's how you get teams with switches in their controls, or who-knows-what-else. (I will give a Krispy Kreme-shaped trophy to anyone who uses a wearable control system in 2005 with any degree of success. I guess the big challenge there would be to put in a quick-connect of some sort so you can still stand behind the line. Oh, and make it actually do something worthwhile.)

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

I know there are a couple of teams that have created a wearble control system for previous competitions: We did gloves FIRST?

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Not sure if this will work, but it may be of some relevance...

http://pcworld.pricegrabber.com/sear...asterid=433440

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

It won't be anything that we use this year (I doubt it is really practical), but I am working with one of our students to create a controller that reads the electrical impulses of a muscle (say a bicep squeeze) and converts it into a useable signal. If it works we plan to have a demonstration model at the St. Louis regional.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

116 has used a steering wheel with an attached throttle control. It was mounted on the same board as the switches. It worked and we competed with it in 2001. I couldn't tell you more about how they implemented it.



Wetzel

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Just a side note, is this really FIRST legal? I can understand modifying a couple pins in a joystick is easy(I don't know about legal, see rules below), but using a game controller is more than likely illegal. Unless it was specially designed for standard 15-pin joystick ports without MIDI In, chances are slim to work. I can't speak for all controllers, but I know the N64 & Gamecube would require special circuitry to operate.

Steven

P.S.
N64 Controller Interface
GCN Controller Interface

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

I know there is much talk of what has been done by teams in previous years and I know a lot of it has been pretty cool but what I don't see are diagrams and white papers. If your team has used alternatives to the standard joysticks then please post a white paper or a wiring diagram or something.

BTW, If anyone is interested, I posted a wiring diagram for a joystick last year. It wasn't much but it is still floating around on CD somewhere.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Steven,

Those rules apply to the custom circuits that are on the robot itself, not what you use in the player station. I am currently traveling and am unable to locate the rules from 2001, but I know that it was legal then. I will see if I can find anyone on the team that remembers how it was implemented.


Wetzel

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Steven,
The rule you quoted is for the robot controller interface as suggested above. The rules on OI wiring are these...
<R85> The Operator Interface Console designed by your team must fit on the 42” wide by 9” deep shelf in the Alliance Station and The Radio Modem connected to the Operator Interface must be able to reach the mounting bracket on the operator stations. Be sure to leave at least 48” of slack in the 9-pin cable.
And
5.7.2 Operator Interface Sensor Inputs
The exact wiring configuration for the joysticks, switches, potentiometers, LEDs, and analog sensors connected to the Operator Interface is not specified. Teams may wire these devices, within the rules as described below and according to the documentation supplied by Innovation First, in order to create a custom interface for the robot operators.
The second rule goes on to present examples and add a few more restrictions. The greatest of these is that the interface not use any power supply connections to the OI other than the LED outputs and sensor wiring as shown. That leaves a lot open to designing your own human interface. As always, check over the rules when the game is announced for further details, these rules may and often do change each year.

Digital control (was Re: Hacking Various Controllers)
 

I recently hacked up a controller, just to see what was involved. The switches were easy to handle, but the joysticks were a pain. I had to replace the joystick pots with 100K-ohm versions. The new pots didn't have exactly the same footprint as the old, so it took some effort to get it back together.

Anyway, this controller also has a digital D-pad which is essentially four contact switches (fwd/rev/left/right). I was thinking about changing the software to use the D-pad instead of the joysticks. The big problem is the lack of speed control. The analog joysticks provide about 128 speed gradients in any direction, whereas a digital interface provides two (on or off). I could, of course, use some other buttons to select speed, but I'm not going to get anywhere near 128 different speeds. And I'm guessing it wouldn't be as intuitive to the operators.

I'm wondering if any teams have used a strictly digital interface to control their robots? I'm not talking about digitally encoding the joystick positions; I'm thinking about getting rid of the joysticks altogether.

Re: Digital control (was Re: Hacking Various Controllers)
 

Just add a pot for throttle to your pad switches. I am sure you will be unhappy with it, but it can be done. You will need some software intervention for the switches since you do not want to go from forward to reverse at speed. (This tends to tear the tranny out and leave it in pieces on the floor.) The joysticks are something most people have already learned and translating to robot movement come fairly easily for most drivers.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

(Sorry, I was on vacation...) So, does this mean a processor circuit can be build on the OI(meeting all the other rules). We have thought about doing this before, but always ruled it out due to the rules stating the circuits have to be on the robot. Just curious, could be a YMC(You Make the Call).

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

our mentor found this on line and modified it to control our robot. It works reasonably well and can drive our robot easily with the two joysticks. The only problem with this design is that when both thumbs are on the joysticks it becomes reasonably hard to use the other buttons at the same time (ie. trying to raise an arm while driving the bot). We may bring this to the regionals this year if we work all of the kinks out.

link to the controller
http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FSDAGP-TR

who thinks we should hack a ddr max game "controller" to drive the robot!

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

Steve,
The rules for 2004 that apply to your question is...
R86> Teams are permitted to connect a portable computing device (Laptop computer, PDAs, etc.) to the RS232
Output of the Dashboard Port of the Operator Interface for the purpose of displaying feedback from the
robot while competing in Competition matches. Portable computing devices may not be connected to
inputs on the Operator Interface. Please note that AC power will not be available at the playing field so
these devices will have to run on internal batteries.

So I would have to say No to your question. This would give you an unfair advantage over teams that only had switches and pots.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

I was always happy with that rule, since it forces humans to be integral parts of feedback systems involved.

Now if only we could build a human which (who?) passed through all data unmodified and in real time... We need a better human...

Last year, we planned and began construction of an audio feedback system for the command team. We never had a chance to finish it, but I will post diagrams et al. as soon as I find them.

Re: Hacking Various Controllers
 

We tried the same controller but it was rejected by the drive team. They wanted something a little more full size and some of us felt that reliability might suffer. Joysticks do get a bit beatup during competition.

Controls and joysticks
 

Can you use any joysticks or controls you want?

Re: Controls and joysticks
 

Basically, see the rules, but unless they have major onboard processors, they are ok. Also, wearable controls are kosher too.

Re: Controls and joysticks
 

Yeah, he is right. You can have some microcontroller-based fun control-wise, but you aren't allowed to use "a computer." The line is kind of fuzzy...

Re: Controls and joysticks
 

For instance, I think that it would be OK to use a couple of IC's to hook up an XBox controller to the 15 pin serial (and I think you could too, use an IC to split the signal/ convert the packets into analog values), but attaching a pocket PC is definatly not cool.

(ok, so maybe it is cool, but only if it runs linux -- www.handhelds.org)

Playstation Controler
 

We are a rookie team so we're still learning about the game play and we are wondering if we are allowed to use a playstation controller instead of the joysticks provided.

Any help you can give would be appriciated

Thank you for your time

Re: Playstation Controler
 

Well for one thing you would have to get a cord that transfer the joystick connector with the playstation controller and I am sure that there would be compatability issues. Now you could do this with a PC game controller but there would be trouble matching up the default code with this type of controller. In either case I do not think that the rules allow for that kind of thing.

Re: Playstation Controler
 

its allowed according to the rules (many teams have done it) it is just fairly difficult to accomplish. A playstation controller does not have a db15 end to it, so it couldn't be simply attached to the operator interface. pretty much the only way to do it would be to rewire the entire game pad.

Re: Playstation Controler
 

Chronic,

Check out this thread; it may be of some use to you:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28898

Re: Playstation Controler
 

Oh no...the console wars have begun anew. :ahh:

Re: Playstation Controler
 

I was looking at something like this as an option for our robot. There are a lot of controllers out there for the PC that are set up like a Playstation 2 controller. Like was mentioned before, the difficulty would be modifying the code to make it mesh with the controller.

Re: Playstation Controler
 

I was just kidding. Reading through I thought that it would be a better idea to use a PC controller similar to a PS2 controller, if using a PS2 controller meant rewiring it and writing code and stuff.

Re: Playstation Controler
 

Cool! I never would have thought of that! Last year, we were going to try a controller that goes with videogames for the computer that deal with cars. That didn't work so well. As long as you have the time and your driver likes the idea, I would recomend it. Last year, my team decided that we would try to design our controll system on the preferences of our driver. We were a rookie team, so we didn't get that time.

Re: Playstation Controler
 

you cannot really use a ps controller, not because of the rules, but because of the way it is set up..
The controllers for FIRST are analog. PS controllers are digital.... it doesnt match, you will find some problems if you try it.

Re: Playstation Controler
 

Hmm, Digital pots anyone?

If a microcontroller is allowed, you may be able to take whatever the controller of your choice and convert it to analog with a microcontroller, and output it to the OI with one of those. Of course that is one more thing to program, but if you can't get it done this year, why not in the off season?

Re: Playstation Controler
 

You cannot immediately write off using the PS controller for the robot, simply because it is digital and the controller has analog inputs. There are digital input on the controller as well, which gives that option if you can figure out how to make it work with those digital inputs. Also there is the option of producing a Digital to Analog converter. The same way that the robot converts the analog signal to digital so that it can process it, you can do the reverse and give it an analog signal from digital.

I'm sure you can find a digital to analog converter online.

Saying that something cannot be done, is always good inspiration for someone to find a way to do it.

Re: Playstation Controler
 

I didn't say that it couldnt be done, well atleast didn't mean it in that way, I said you would have problems, I am sorry if you misinterpretted me, but i meant that you would have to search around for one and have some other problems. Please forgive my bad wording.

Question about controller/joystick method.
 

ok, I want to rig an Xbox controller as the main interface for our robot. I have converted them to USB before and have a USB driver and i was wondering if any of you had wiring diragrams of serial ports so i can figure out how to power it and where all the handshakes are. If so please let me know where i can find them. Thank you. Also is it legal to make an xbox controller the interface?

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

I am not sure where you can get a diagram of the serial port, hopefully you will get it, and I am almost certain that you can use an Xbox controller legally.
But USB is digital isnt it... and the serial port is analog.

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

Yeah, the digital/analog swith would be enough to steer me towards playstation, but i dunno

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

I thought Serial cables were both digital and analog.

If you need it the wiring for USB is as follows:

5V / Red

D+ / Green

D - / White

Ground / Black

Lets say we forget about the pressure sensetive buttons (255 levels of sensitivity to be exact) and just wanted to use them as toggels. I know I can get a driver for it, the only thing I need is a way to wire it to a serial port.

Does anyone know of an adapter or crossover that would work?

I thought about PS2 but everyone knows xbox is superior.

Alright, thanks for the help so far.

(P.S. If you want your game system modified [LEDs, Paint Jobs, other crazy stuff, Preformance Xbox mods, etc.] let me know.)

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

Search before you post:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...+controlle rs

But since I'm a nice guy, I'll tell you--unless you are up for some serious hacking and programming, you are not going to get an XBox controller to interface with the 2005 FRC OI to much success. It's mainly because the DB15 (gameport) connector used is rather old-school.

Many others have looked for a way to do it. None have done it yet. Don't take this as bashing--take it as a challenge. (And of course, IFI provides some resources to aid you in your effort.) Every good thing in FIRST has happened because someone wanted to do a particular task a better/cheaper/faster/more interesting way. (Hence we have the kitbot this year!)

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

Sorry about not searching for the post guys...... I just assumed this was kinda random and not many people would talk about it... oh well....


Well, if anyone knows the wiring schematics of the DB15 than let me know.

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

This question comes up at least once every year, and there have been multiple threads about it. No offence, but if you are even asking this question i don't think you should attempt this. You CANNOT directly connect USB stuff to the OI no matter what kind of crazy software you right. This is a hardware restriction and there is no way around it without making a USB to gameport converter. This is not an easy task even for a seasoned hardware developer. USB is an extremely in depth and bulky protocol that is not for the faint of heart. I speak from experience. I have developed USB peripherals in the past. In order to interface with an Xbox controller, you would have to make a device that could act as a USB host. This is far worse than a peripheral. If you absolutely feel you need to to have an Xbox controller then i would rip it apart and see if you can bypass all of the control electronics. I have never opened one up but it probably boils down to mess of switches and potentiometers. If this is the case, you can just hook some wires up to the bottons/axis slap the proper DB15 connector on it and plug it directly into the OI.

BTW yes it is legal

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

The serial port on the OI is not analog. Perhaps you are confusing it with the gameports(joystick imputs) on the OI which are Analog. BTW the serial port on the OI is also unidirectional. It can only recieve information from the robot. It can't transmit anything to the robot.

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

The reason that I would automatically consider the 'Serial Port' as a Joystick by the way they said it, and knowing the serial ports unidirectional. That is why I had said that it is analog, I am sorry for the confusion.

Re: Question about controller/joystick method.
 

Its ait. Don't worry about it.

Re: Using non joystick controls with Operator Interface (Hacking Various Controllers)
 

Well, we're a rookie team and I just wired up a playstation controller to our robot yesterday. It took about an hour and a half once I got the d-sub conectors in the mail. Anyway, it's really cool to drive the robot with.

Re: Using non joystick controls with Operator Interface (Hacking Various Controllers)
 

I'm trying to figure out how to wire and program a non joystick device for controlling the robot. I'm not sure how many switches we would use, though it will probably be 3 or 4, depending on what exactly we use for/on our arm. Does any know if I need to take any special considerations when deciding where to wire these on a serial port and what pins match up for the different controls on the ports? Any help is appriecated, and if a thread already exists for this, I can't find it, so point me there.

Re: Using non joystick controls with Operator Interface (Hacking Various Controllers)
 

Heather,
Switches are connected and mapped through the four joystick ports on the OI not the serial port. If you check in the OI manual you will find the pinout for the four ports and the buttons they call in the OI and default software.

Re: Using non joystick controls with Operator Interface (Hacking Various Controllers)
 

OK, so will I need to ground all of my switches on 4 and 12? Or do I just need to connect the ends of the switches to the pins?

Re: Using non joystick controls with Operator Interface (Hacking Various Controllers)
 

In looking at section 4 of the OI manual...
"Digital Inputs (see pinouts on pages 7-10)
To utilize these inputs, wire buttons or switches between the desired digital input signal pin and any ground pin. A digital input senses a connection to ground to become active. Do not connect switches or digital inputs to 5V. Do not use lighted switches."
Any switch will have one side wired to the desired digital input on one of the four ports and the other side of the switch will be wired to either/both pin 4 and/or 12 on any port. If you search you will find a reference that allows you to construct a "y" cable that will connecto two of the ports so that you can have a button box that has more switches than one port can provide. Also note that digital inputs are duplicated on two ports. See port 2 & port 4 pinout tables.