i know that this has been almost beat to death, but next years game has absolutely got to be spectator-friendly. no ands, ifs, or buts about it. people need to be able to see the game once and not only understand whats going on, but also to be able to get into it. cuz lets face it, this years game was not spectator-friendly. people who saw the game for the first time were completely baffled. and if by some miracle they did manage to figure out more then the basics, then they were practically bored to tears. it was exciting for the participants, but the game was both horribly complex and mind-numbingly repetative. how many different stratagies were used in all the matches combined? in the elims and finals at nats? not too many. the game was quite simply not designed ith an audiance in mind. it needs to be designed with one next year.

It's hard for people to get excited and watch something that they don't understand. Kinda like soccer (for me). I dislike soccer VERY much. I could be that I don't understand it. I don't know. I've always been into auto racing (NASCAR, IRL, F-1). Easy to understand. Drive around in circles, fine tune your car till it's perfect. Sorry if I may have offended ony of those soccer buffs out there.

Don't want to get TOO off topic.....
 

Okay, okay, I know this really isn't about the question of the week, just a comment on David's post. To say that NASCAR is more of a sport than soccer to me just seems odd. Yes, I like soccer and yes, believe it or not, I even enjoy watching NASCAR now and then (don't worry David - I liked #3 too) but I simply don't think that NASCAR is an actual sport. Great as it may be, it just doesn't seem sporty. Just imho,

~Tom~

P.S. On second thought, this might be a good poll for the random post section..... Look for it soon. ;)

I agree with this point.

First, I'm glad they're letting us go to the team forum. If they kept it as over 21, our team would be unrepresented at the forum.

I know, for my team anyway, we only have one "adult" member on the team, and he might not be willing to drive 6 hours to go to kickoff. It would make much more sense financially for the college students (who, by the way, run the team) in the new england area to attend kickoff and then bring the parts when they are traveling back to college after winter break. I know my team is not the only one... there are a number of teams that are almost entirely run by students less than 21 years old. Dean wants us to start teams... Then chooses alcohol over our teams?

Patrick

before i make this post i think i have to start by checking to see if i have it right: from what im understanding from this thread theyre letting the college students attend the team forum but not kickoff? is this the case? if it isnt then the following post might not make sence, but im just clarifying that if thats the case its because i have the facts wrong in which case im sorry...

our team has had only 1 person over 21 the whole time (unless we count mr benson, but all he does is try to get us sponsors...he has nothing to do with the designing or building of the bot or anything like that)...last year we had 6 college students who coulda gone (though im not sure if any of them except for anton wouldve). this year unfortunately we still only have 1 eligable attendee (even if college students are allowed to attend), because our college conection was lost

Sadness.... don't like watching soccer..... soccer=all time not spent on FIRST....I've played soccer since I was 3 years old and watched it even longer, I love it so much, It's such an exciting game, i'll explain it to you sometime, make you love it too. From a strategic standpoint it is such an amazing game, watching and coaching it has helped me to gain more perspective to be a coach on the field for FIRST.... cool how things like that work :)

I agree on the importance of getting more colleges involved, but I would like to see it done on a more advantageous level for the colleges themselves. As a college student, I know how hard it is to find the time to volunteer, especially for something as time consuming as a FIRST team, but if FIRST were to work with colleges to design an engineering course, to be taught at the colleges, which would involve the college students undertaking the engineering role on a team, I believe that more colleges would jump aboard. If students were able to earn credit for their hard volunteer work (and I believe that it is well worth the credit, based on the time FIRST involves) than colleges would have a number of students signing up to help out on a FIRST team, and it would offer them hands on training for a work environment. Unfortunately, the course could only be offered in the semester between Jan. and May, but I think it is something that FIRST should definitely look into . . . especially since Kamen wants more college teams participating!

getting colleges more involve...
 

The idea about getting more college involvements is a really good idea... I believe colleges can and should be as supportive as some of the sponsoring companies, because the colleges either already have professors who can provide the engineering support or there's already machine shops available.

However, about getting the college to support their student for doing FIRST, I am not sure how plausible that is. Trust me, I want it just as bad as anyone in here, I am going to face the problem of time management between FIRST and college next semester. It's just that, for example, the college that I go to, UC Berkeley, its policy for their engineering students is to get those students out of the school as soon as possible. So what are they going to think? Will they want the student concentrate more on his/her major's courses so they can finish the school year as soon as possible, or will they let those students do FIRST for extra credit?

I think the most FIRST can do is to ask colleges to sponsor teams... Mean while, the students will have to talk to their professors themselves about doing FIRST and going to classes at the same time. ;) After all, Dean hand out his homework assignment to us every single year¡K

One thing the Society of College FIRST-a-holic will do is to help students go through those tough time... Sorry for advertising about SCF right now ;)

True Dat. Real, real true. When I finally got to a competition last year, I left after 4 matches. True, I had things to do, but if it had been really interesting I could have and would have put them off. Frankly, I was bored.

I'd say go back to competing teams on the field, allowing defense/offense, which is pretty interesting to watch, and giving that incredible variety in strategy for interest. I think also it's an advantage for weaker teams, and allows them to meaningfully participate. Also, the conflict isn't so abstract, and that's way easier to grasp and thus to cheer for. Exceitement has to be built into our competitions, because excitement is what we are trying to generate.

Sam

What?! Don't like soccer
 

I guess you could call me a soccer buff. I like to spend sooooooo much time playing, watching, and hopefully this year coaching. Soccer is eally a great sport, maybe even great for next year's comp.... Unfortunately I had to give up playing soccer this past season because the coach was unwilling to work with me around FIRST. I guess you could compare soccer to hockey, minus the icing calls. This year at nats I'll bring my soccer ball, we'll start a small pick up game, if anyone's interrested.
C~ya,
Carolyn

Re: What?! Don't like soccer
 

...and minus the contact, which is the best part.
anyways, if you think icing calls are bad in hockey, at least they are consitant. explain the whole offside thing for soccer, i cant understand that one at all...

Soccer has plenty of contact, you just have to be more skilled to get away with it. I didn't mean that icing calls were bad, just that they are not a part of soccer.
Off sides is fairly easy to explain. You have 2 teams, red and blue. If there is a red forward between the blue goalie and the next closest blue jersey, he doesn't have the ball, he's just standing there waiting,"cherry picking". If someone kicks the ball to him and there is no blue jersey behind him, other than the goalie, he cannot turn and shoot. If, however the red player and the blue player are parallel on the field and the ball goes behind them, the red player may run ahead of the blue player. It's really simmilar to a combination of a back court and a goal tending call in basketball. Does that help you any? If not the only suggestion I can make is ask someone who can draw it for you or wait until comps next year and I'll show you.
C~ya,
Carolyn who could talk, and play soccer for an eternity.

if the particulars of soccor confuse me, then the rules of basketball really confuse me...
but can you answer this question for me? in soccer why do they hide how much time is left...like they add on for dead ball time at the end. why not just stop the clock or something?

In soccer, the Ref is the person who keeps the official time. The Ref can stop the clock when he feels it is justified to do so. Unfortunately, the TV doesn't know what time the Ref has and so they just keep the time running and make up for it in the end.

Offsides
 

Straight from the Refferees rulebook, the offside ruling!

LAW 11 – Offside
Offside Position
It is not an offence in itself to be in an offside position.
A player is in an offside position if:
he is nearer to his opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second last opponent
A player is not in an offside position if:
he is in his own half of the field of play
or
he is level with the second last opponent
or
he is level with the last two opponents
Offence
A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
interfering with play
or
interfering with an opponent
or
gaining an advantage by being in that position
No Offence
There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from:
a goal kick
or
a throw-in
or
a corner kick
Infringements/Sanctions
For any offside offence, the referee awards an indirect free kick to the opposing team to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred. * (see page 3)