[FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Since no one seems to want to debate this, I assume that's all the ideas there are. so we have:

1. Crystal Space
   Price:Open source (free)
2. Genesis 3D
   Price:Open source (free)
3. Unreal
   Price:$350,000 plus royalties; 1 platform; $50,000 for additional platforms.

   $750,000 royalty-free; 1 platform; $100,000 for additional platforms

4. Torque
   Price: $100

You have 14 days. Votes are public.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

why are people Voting for unreal? do they want to donate all the $ to use it?

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Tytus, the question asked what engine SHOULD be used. It says nothing about what WILL be used or the practicality of getting any such graphics engine.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

the unreal engine is FREE!!!!!!!!!!!! i mean... it comes down to wethere we want to make our own game and make it seperate, or just use the unreal engine and make a MOD for ut2k4... (i have seen a golf sim mod for ut2k4, so n e thing is possible) =D

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I don't have the money for unreal and like open source and think I prefer crystal space. It seems like the best option without shelling out dough. And it can be made so many people, not just thoughs with UT, can take advantage of the game. Just reading opinion this seems to be the path that those actually going to do a lot a work for this project want to go. Not just making a good hack of UT but actually building something. I think crystal space looks like a good building block.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Which unreal engine is this? The totally first one????

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I have no clue so i think i am going to stay out of this one. LOL

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

no... i would persume the 2k4 engine w/ the unreal2.5 engine... BUT... we COUld use UT99, IF it has an Unreal Editor with it... but then it wouldnt be as modern and we wouldnt be able to use high poly count objects =/

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

If you guys are really serious about this--and that means that you want to mess with the engine, rather than just making mods (which is fine too!)--Descent and Quake II (or was it Quake I?) were open-sourced, if I remember correctly. Descent is missing some proprietary sound driver code, but other than that, is complete (and runs under DOS or an emulator). Quake, I'm not sure.

But really, a modern engine like Unreal, with a well-developed modding community is probably a better choice, if it can be used without cost. You will have to consider people losing interest in the project (it always happens with mods), and will have to evaluate the technical aspects of what you want to do versus not only your abilities, but also the capabilities of the modding layer of the engine. (What do I mean? You can't mod Warcraft II into Splinter Cell--though for your purposes, a 3-D shooter engine should serve nicely).

Consider which engines or games can be used to approximate real-world physics. Unreal Tournament isn't so great out of the box, but Raven Shield (an Unreal-based game) has rather good physics.

Also consider that these open-source engines, which may not have actually been used in any products on the market, are (by and large) unsupported and unproven. Will they work? Hopefully/probably. Does Unreal (for example) work? Yes. (And can you afford to buy the source code? No. Would they even sell it to you? Probably not.)

But take a good hard look at the potential for people to back out of the project. If the only person who can handle the advanced C++ and DirectX (or whatever you're coding for) needed for a full-fledged game engine quits out of frustration (or petty bickering, or illness, or school, or life in general), what happens? You need to make sure that the project depends on no one person, or that every person will absolutely refuse to quit (which is unlikely, at best). Wouldn't it be a safer bet to mod a game, where there is comparatively little skill required, and where tasks can be assigned to just about anyone? (You probably shouldn't assume that someone who just completed AP Comp. Sci. is able to write--or even read--code to support DirectX, but maybe they'll know enough to adjust parameters in data files, or learn other skills from modding tutorials.)

In short, don't get in over your heads, and you'll be fine. (And if you still want to go ahead with tweaking the game engine itself, just keep these observations in mind.)

P.S. The link to Crystal needs an extra "e" in "sourceforge"....

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I'm still all for Crystal. I get what you're saying, but I've already stated my feeling about using less than open-source code... :)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Follow the links. The Unreal engine is just the engine; they license it to various groups. (The current version is 2) The prices posted are the normal ones, no special offers.

And if we just mod UT2k4, the cost would be to buy UT2k4 for everyone. Not real cheap, either.

One other thing: There is no sponsor. Anything that we buy is going to have to come out of our pockets. And I don't think that Epic licenses to private people, just corporations.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Remember that, even if you aren't part of the team that works on this...

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

It really isn't that expensive, and you do get a perfectly good game out of it. (I have of course been referring to modding--it's obvious that you can't afford to buy the code for the engine, sponsor or no sponsor.)
Doing so means that you have a engine that is known to work properly. If you use something else, there is a higher probability of something beyond your control going wrong. What guarantees that it will be fixed in a timely fashion, so as not to inconvienience you greatly? And why not make use of the Unreal modding community? That's arguably better than getting an SDK and reading the documentation, and fighting with low-level code, but still ending up with a product that's based on a sub-par or dated backend.

If the price is such a big deal, why not use the old Unreal Tournament? It's exceptionally efficient, very scalable, runs on anything (of consequence), and is "known good". The techniques to mod it (note--once again, I doubt it's worth it to even think of buying the code!) are established and widely available.

Whatever you do, don't paint yourselves into a corner by choosing an engine for which you will be debugging errors totally unrelated to your project--let someone else do that for you! (Open source is ideologically nice, but do you have the time and energy to bugtest someone else's work in progress, while you simultaneously try to develop an implementation of the same thing, using ever-changing builds, and without a guarantee of stability? It's a crapshoot.)

One other thing about open source (or any source, really): once you do see the code, will you know what to do with it? Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's not exactly easy stuff to interpret, especially the first time around. If you have real expertise (high school comp. sci. probably doesn't constitute expertise), or are willing to invest significant time to learn, then it may be reasonable; but if you want to work on a FIRST video game, and not spend your (not-unlimited) time learning the nuances of a particular engine, the best route is still modding someone else's work.

It's a matter of perspective--what do you really want? To learn 3-D game design/implementation, or to produce a FIRST game? They aren't mutually exclusive, but neither are they the same thing. Another thing: if you're recruiting volunteers, make sure they know in advance your answer to this question--if they assume that you're going to have a game within a certain time period, and find that you, the leaders, are still tinkering with the intricacies of the engine when you "ought to be" working on the game itself, they may just quit out of disillusionment.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I never said it would be easy, but considering that I don't have Unreal in any form, I am going to say no to it.

There is also the fact that it would be a mod, not it's own program.

If we would to break Unreal somehow, all we can do is hope it's fixable. If we break CS, we can modify the source if need be.

Running unreal would be cool, but the strings atached would make it almost not worth it. Using the Unreal engine would be no more dificult than using an open source engine.

And if we spend any money, a huge infrastructure may need to be set up. I certainly don't have a whole lot of cash.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

The point is, you can't break Unreal, without tampering with source code that you don't have. If you're confident in Crystal Space, that's not a problem, but be aware that modifying source is what can lead to the most trouble. If you're up to it, and keep backups of every build (so you don't lose as much time hunting down erroneous changes and subtle bugs), you end up with a more flexible and arguably more effective platform. If you're lazy, or lack the resources to be methodical about source control, or any number of disadvantageous situations pop up, you're in for a pile of painful debugging. Also, if someone else's bug is the problem, are you sure that you can fix it? Are you sure that they can fix it (in the near future, without invalidating your code)?

With an open-source engine, you're not coding for a mature platform--you're coding for something that's in development. That's a lot harder than modding a well-known, well-documented, versatile, and stable game.
It isn't expensive to buy Unreal Tournament ($20 CAD in the old games section), nor is it particularly expensive to buy Unreal Tournament 2004 ($60 CAD). Not free, but not all that much cash either. It is not a huge infrastructure. (To reiterate: you can't buy a copy of the source without a corporation and suitcases full of money. So it's irrelevant!)

Yes it would be a mod, so no, you couldn't sell it. (Were you planning to sell it? Who would buy it? There aren't that many FIRST people, you know, say 30 000, most of whom will not buy anything of the sort. And if you intend to convince the public to buy it, that's excellent in that it provides exposure for FIRST and for you, not to mention money; but are you sure that you can pull it off? Maybe that's just a wild extrapolation, though; disregard it, if you had no such intentions.) More to the point, what fundamental objections do you have to modding a game?

So what's the problem? To which strings are you referring? You're implying a similar level of difficulty, so either you're intending a (relatively simple) mod for Crystal, or you're making minimal changes to its code. (In other words, why do you need/want the source code?)

Or is it that you really want to use SourceForge, but can't justify it if it's a commercial game engine? I hope it isn't something as miniscule as that.

We're still not really clear on one thing: are you focused on getting a "product" (saleable or not) out in the world, or are you concentrating on developing your own skills? I'd tend to agree that the more challenging option (Crystal Space) is better for skill development, but that as a practical matter, you're more likely to end up with something substantial to show for your efforts if you mod Unreal (or the like).

And like I said before, since you're promoting this project vigourously, and recruiting help, people are going to be disappointed if you find Crystal Space to be too difficult, or too limited, or otherwise unsuitable. By opening this up to the world, you're now bound by their expectations, at least to some degree.

All that said, give it your best shot--who knows what will come of your decisions, but at least you'll have learned something....

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Selling it as a product has crossed my mind, but it is ok by the CS license. My own skill developement has not crossed my mind yet.

The unreal engine has a whole host of legal issues involved. Also, a 'mod' is considered significantly less than 'game'. (Which would you rather tell your friends? "I helped make the FIRST Video Game." "I helped make the FIRST Unreal Mod.")

I excpect that the diference of dificulty between Unreal and CS APIs are slim to none. CS has many of the Features that we need. While using Unreal would produce ultra-realistic scenes, there are 2 things that should be remembered: 1. that it can only do this on the best macines; 2. that it can only make it as good as the models.

Like I said earlier, if anyone can convince them to let the FIRST community is it for this dirt cheap, I will be more than happy to use it. but until then, I know I will not support it.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

What advantage does CS have over Quake II?

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

"Total conversion" mods can be quite extensive--look at some of the Unreal variants out there, or at the variety of things that have been done with Quake. Also, as for the legality, one must consider that Epic provides an editor with their software. That could constitute some sort of implied consent; at the very least, it's clear that they won't sue you if you don't sell it.

In any case, I've got to point out that some of this sounds suspiciously like an issue of pride (which is fine, understandable and all that), but which also means that if you fail to make it work, the consequences w/r/t your pride may be more significant, because of higher expectations.
True enough, but do you need API support beyond whatever scripting is provided in the Unreal editors? If this is truly so, then perhaps you're right about Crystal.
1. I've managed to run the old Unreal Tournament at 30 fps on a PII 450 with 384 MB RAM, and a 32 MB GeForce 2 MX (serving as host for a network game). That's the pride of 1998, with 2000's video card. It runs at about 20-25 fps on a PII 333 laptop with 192 MB, and an 8 MB Rage Pro. The dedicated server works on a Pentium 166 with 32 MB of RAM, even with a Windows 2000 session running (not blindingly fast, but certainly playable with those other two computers as clients--and the Windows 2000 thing is admittedly a bad idea on a computer of 1996 vintage). In all cases, graphical quality was nothing to be ashamed of--1024×768×16; and certainly no worse-looking than Quake II. Like I said, Unreal really is spectacularly efficient.
2. There's a bit of CAD and 3-D graphical design talent in the FIRST community--why not make use of it? The models can be as good as you need them to be (i.e. start with a box, and progress from there).

By choosing Crystal, you do have access to a reasonably complete feature set (to which you referred); you don't, however, have the assurance that the engine is stable and bug-free. With Unreal, you have a very large support community, and a proven technology, but are limited in what you can do to the actual code.

As I understand it, you want to make a 3-D simulation of a field/stadium, and populate it with robots and objects. Couldn't this be accomplished with an Unreal map mod, several new bots, a few objects like balls or goals, and an adjusted set of physics parameters? I still don't see exactly what you need to get into the source code for. If it's not the learning experience that is primarily driving you, why not take the slightly more straightforward route? Also consider that you can test models, game dynamics and all sorts of other issues in Unreal, then (if the Crystal feature set is to be believed), you should be able to port it to native Crystal, if things work out. It's like rapid application development....

Also, things like announcers aren't as simple as they appear. In the other thread, D.J. Fluck accused the EA Sports announcers of being stilted and unimaginative in their phrasing. This is true--but not for lack of trying (EA has tried play-by play since at least 1997, and it still isn't perfected.) There are hundreds of different phrases and names in NHL 2003 (for example); they have to be accessed on a moment's notice, and played in some coherent order. When Kaberle receives the puck, it doesn't help for the announcer to still be talking about Sundin--and if Kaberle holds onto the puck, the announcer can't just sit silently and say nothing. On the other hand, the implementation of play by play might be more than an Unreal mod can handle--so this could be a backhanded vote of confidence for Crystal (just brace yourselves for a vast library of sounds that can be pulled up instantly, and an algorithm to tie them together in coherent patterns).

Creating the game from raw source code is clearly the more significant achievement, but without having a true measure of everyone's committment to this project, I can't help but wonder if you are biting off more than you can chew. I don't by any means consider the use of Crystal to be impossible, only difficult. So as project leaders, it is upon you to know your (and your associates') capabilities, and choose the course of action that benefits the project the most. (If you haven't already come to some conclusions about each other's abilities and potential for improvement, now is the time for an honest discussion. Leave pride out of it for now.)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

It's not a matter of biting off more than one can chew; it's eating it in managable pieces.

When I created this thread, my intent was the Unreal 2 engine. Meaning: If you go to the link in the first post, the actual Unreal engine that Epic licenses to other parties. My intention was NOT to use the UT and just mod it.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

The people involved in this have a variety of abilities, which should allow us to do this. For instance, Astronouth is relatively new to C++, while have known it for years. On the other had, I'm not the greatest with graphics programming, ... etc. A single one of us might not be able to do it on our own, but it we work together, we can do this. :)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Some questions on modding Unreal:

1. Does it allow you to load characters, models, worlds, etc. at runtime?
2. Can you put in a 2D overlay? (Think driver's station view)
3. Does it allow dll plug-ins or provide OOP script support?

If you said no to any of these, reconsider your position.

Do you plan on helping us program? Because the programmers are the ones who need to know exactly what a given engine supports, how it expects data, and how flexible it is. If you are not a programmer or are not planning on helping us, then I ask that you take a less active role in this thread.

The question I have asked is primarily a programming one. Every resource group (audio, 2D, 3D) is affected by the fact that this affects what formats they can use, but the programmers are the most greatly directed in this decision.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I don't know all the answers for Unreal; here are some sites that will probably contain them. Note that these sites cater to modders and engine developers alike, but some content may not be available without licence. As to exactly what that content is, you'll need to take a look:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/WebHome
http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/PublicModResource

As far as I know, all of those things are possible with the engine, but I don't know whether they can be implemented in exactly that fashion in a mod. (The links ought to contain the answer.)

(Edit follows)
See http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=28 for more information: apparently these things are possible in a mod, via UnrealScript. (Except maybe .dll imports, but they would most likely be redundant, due to native formats.)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I can't beleive that no one has mentioned the Quake II Engine. It is plenty advanced, and is available free under the GPL. See http://www.idsoftware.com/business/t...echlicense.php

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Do you know where I can finde docs?

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Further to my first post here:
Descent source code compiles with Watcom C++, for DOS.
Descent II source code compiles with Watcom C++, for DOS.
Quake and Quake II source code Quake II compiles with MS VC++ 6.0 for Windows. There's also a .NET port--maybe that's more like what you had in mind with Crystal.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Just a thought...but shouldn't those who are going to be actually working on this the most be in charge of it? people like Astronouth7303, Texan and others seems to be the ones who will be pulling the most work...so I think in all rights they should be the ones to choose it.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

We just want input by others. It may be that we make an executive decision and don't use Unreal, but we wanted to see what others would say. :)

-EDIT-
This post isn't endorsed by anyone else. Just have to note that...

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

You are, of course welcome to make executive decisions. It's your project, after all.

But wait, there's more!
It's just food for thought, nothing more.... (From here.)


Also, to put those comments on team-building and personnel issues in context, this is suggested reading. (I sumbit that it applies equally to a mod, a development of an engine, or a game-from-scratch.)

You are taking on a sizeable responsibility to your team by spearheading a project like this. Do whatever it takes to make it work for you. If that means Crystal, it means Crystal, if that means Unreal, then so be it. Evaluate the alternatives rationally, and thoroughly, because it will have been a relatively fruitless endeavour if at some point, you realize that you've dug yourselves a hole too deep, or run out of capabilities in the modding system.

In general, you know what you want out of this (though the specifics are evolving, you obviously have some sort of mental plan), and you must do the research, in order to make the best choice. Learn all about the alternatives, and choose wisely; don't rush the decision--this is too important to your success to make a mistake. If it means contacting some mod authors (see UnrealWiki), or Crystal developers to get an exact idea of what's what, from the real experts (as opposed to ourselves, who merely dabble in this stuff), do it.

I hope that these lengthy discourses haven't scared anyone away from expressing their own views on the subject; rather, I'm pointing out what needs to be considered for an undertaking of this magnitude. Along the way, I'm offering recommendations that can be accepted or ignored at will--it's not a personal affront in any sense. So, like Texan said, input from others might be useful here.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I do suggest the everyone read the link of "suggested reading" in Tristan's post, especially the second section.

I appreciate all that you have said in this thread, Tristan. I don't feel "threatened" in anyway, and I don't think that any of the others do either. You are just forcing us to think things through completely, which is obviously a good thing. :)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

i'm sure there are plenty of people who are giving a lot of input, but don't want to be in charge of anything. it should be the people who want to take on the executive roles, and have the responsibility to, who actually do. Astronouth and Texan are putting in a lot of work, and they were the first to PM me when i said that people should do so to get involved. I've been trying to help in every way i can, but being that I still have 3 finals left to take, and that i have minimal programming experience, i haven't been able to do as much as they have. once we get a bunch of recruits i think we need to establish who will be in charge of what. there should be no one person in charge; no dictatorship; we need to have a small committee making all of the executive decisions by voting. i'd like to do some of the executive stuff (after all, this whole thing was my idea... :rolleyes: ). most of all, i want to help with the organization of this whole thing. as my team role implies, i want to help with the communication aspect of all this, getting everybody to work together as one team. If we all work together, success is the only possible outcome. :D

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Both Unreal 2 and 1 are being discussed in this post, I think its important to know some distinctions.

First of all, Unreal 1 is dying. There is no development to the engine and most modding has come to a halt.

Though Unreal 1 would mean that the game would almost definitley be playable on most systems, that isn't because it can go lower than Unreal 2 in terms of graphics, but because it can't go as high. It is definitley possible to use Unreal 2 with the same level of detail (texture resolution, poly count, lighting mode....) as an Unreal 1 game and achieve similar performance.

Unreal 2 has built in support for vehicles and is much more able to handle non-human moving stuff. It is much easier to script the movements neccesary for a robot. Actually, I don't think U1 would even be able to do the job at all.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

unrealED is free with any copy of ut, i think. I have it from my original ut and i think i have it for the latest one, but i havn't actually looked, you can probably find it for download somewhere, as games companies tend to support modders now as it makes them look good etc....

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

You can actually download the runtime for Unreal2. But you can't get to the API reference w/o registering.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Ok, so what do you say we choose the engine now? :D

Obviously, Unreal has the majority...
But I don't like it... ;)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

We need to establish some goals. Specifically, why are we (you) doing this?

1. because some dude suggested it and someone coerced me to help
2. because I'm bored
3. Because it'd be pimp and I'd be shamed to make it bad.

The list goes on. I happen to lean towards #3; I'd prefer CS.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Um... ok... :D

The main reason I'm against Unreal is because of it not being open source, and its cost... But, if we end up using it, I'll get over it. :)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I would much prefer Crystal Space, because it is open source, free and is compatible with other OSs(Unix, Linux, MacOSX...).
Unreal is compatible with MacOSX, but its not open source, and it will not give us a stand alone game, this means that not only does our target audience have to be a FIRST addict (or someone looking into FIRST) but they would also have to own a $50 game....

Crystal Space

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Does Dave think it'd be pimp?

*ducks* Sorry... couldn't resist.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

Dave would definitely think it is pimp, and so do I.

Crystal Space is the way to go, it's Open Source (which I think we would have to have for SourceForge) and we can make a standalone with it.

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

So, I'm thinking that CS is our choice. Agree, Astronouth? :)

Re: [FVG]: Choosing an Engine: Final Poll
 

I would, yes.

Unreal would be the choice if we wanted to make it look absolutely pristine, but didn't care about licensing, $$$, or ability to distribute. CrystalSpace, however, is open source, has an open license, and is pretty good on the quality.

Mission Plan ?!?
 

Well, I wrote out a really long thread, which somehow hasn't made it up yet, so, here in a nutshell is what I said:

1. Don't bite off more than you can chew: specifically, you need to write a program that can incorporate new robots and playing fields regularly.
2. FIRST has a successful structure because it attempts to create a partnership between corporations and students.
3. Get Epic to assist in this endevour to build FVG
   1. Don't ask for too much, instead, ask for them to help you make a FVG based on the Unreal engine.
   2. This proposed FVG would not be playable as anything but FVG, and would not be moddable except to add bots.
   3. Epic would get lots of good press, and you would get a spectacular game engione
4. Finally, you would be the people not who failed to build a FIRST game, again, but who moved the paradigm of the FIRST architecture into a whole new field.

Re: Mission Plan ?!?
 

i'm not the expert on programming, but crystal space sounds more efficent to me. doesnt unreal cost a ton? will they be willing to fully sponsor us?

Re: Mission Plan ?!?
 

That would be if we actually got the Unreal2 engine. It was been suggested to make an unreal mod or use quake. (also be epic)

If some one can get Epic to sponsor this, I am more than willing to use Unreal. But until then, I'm going to support CrystalSpace.

Re: Mission Plan ?!?
 

well... i was just looking around my UT2k4 clan site and i cam upon this... i haven't d/l'ed it, but it does seem like its a proggy where you enter in numbers, and you get a finished file/s that start you to your mod... but from what ive seen if we ever did get an unreal2 engine thingy (where we buy it or they give one to us) that it can be transfered over from there...

http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/PublicModResource