Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Hi everyone!

Here is a good technical Question of the Week for you...

Question of the Week (6/21/04):

This year, some people thought the LED's weren't really working out as hoped, due to the fact that they were too difficult to see from a distance. In past years the rotating light was considered too bulky and heavy. What ideas do you have for indicating a robot's color on the field?

As always, you can request questions by PM, e-mail (skrach42@aol.com), or AIM (QuietRiverRage1).

Have fun!
-Andy Grady

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Neon underbelly lights.

MrToast

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I like the idea behind the LEDs. They are MUCH more flexible than the rotating lights, which were often the subject of huge debates when deciding which components will integrate where on the robot. It would always come down to the final 5 pounds, and the light was always blamed as the curse that put us over by .5 pounds.

I think they can improve it by changing the blink rate. On power-up, they should be just on, with the color of the alliance. Once the match starts, they should blink at a much more rapid pace, maybe 3 or 4 times per second. The blinking is important to call attention to it's color during a match, rather than mistaking it for a steady red/blue colored robot part.

I also like the fact that you don't have to worry about forgetting to bring both lenses to the field when up for a match. It also adds a potentially interesting element to future games- the alliance color is controlled by software. What if there was a game where you don't know who your alliance partner is until halfway through the match, or your alliances switch around at some point during the match. So many possibilities with LEDs!!

I guess a non-technical answer would be to use something like a cloth flag. Tie a red or blue ribbon/flag around some part of the robot in an easy to see place. Low weight, no power drain, potentially limitless placement, easily seen, and no danger of getting smashed open!

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I prefer the LEDs because there were just too many problems with the rotating light. For one, it was big and we had to figure out a good visible spot to mount it, and secondly switching covers was a hassle. Seeing as one team borrowed our red and never returned it, so then we would have to borrow someone else's red, and all that. But with the LEDs, there's no hassle, the competition does it for us.

Then again, we could use Ground Effects, and even get them to pulse with music. :D

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

How about red or blue stockings to slip over a part of the robot... :D ...kind of an inside joke on 25.

How about more powerful led's lol. they were lightweight and small. i really think it would either have to be that or back to the dome lights. because the only other thing that would stand out is something attached to the robot, but then the problem is what if it falls off or gets broken or the robot itself is blue or red.
or maybe a string of christmas lights-that no what color to turn- that go across the base of the bot.
the underbelly lights would be cool too lol. just add some gold rims to the wheels too.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Yeah, one team at Southern California (I think it was 634) actually had spinners on their wheels. :ahh:

Seriously, though, I think stronger LEDs are the way to go.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

One problem we found with the LEDs was finding a place on our robot for all 4 of them where they would not constantly get broken/beaten to death. One match in Atlanta on Archimedes our robot went up to hang, cleared the high platform, swung and hit the vertical pole. Our front LED cover smashed into a million pieces, it was amusing to watch, but we ran 2 covers down the rest of the competition, we had already lost one at Midwest. I liked the LEDs better than the rotating light because they are lighter and much cooler, you just have to place them well and not break them. :)

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

LED's all the way. They are used in stoplights all over the place so it wouldn't be that hard to build a light that people can see.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I definately did not like the rotating lights, they tended to fall off and get squished. Totally didn't work.

As the LED's were a bit difficult to see at times, they wouldn't be my favorite choice either.

A lot of the time, I was scouting, and so way up in the stands, you hafta be able to see the lights, otherwise, scouting life becomes very difficult. My best idea would be to have something (yes this is a fairly impossible dreamer idea) that would, when lit up, turn the entire robot whatever color it was supposed to be. Maybe like, fiber optics in the plastic (yes I know, this is completely intangible, but still...) That way, the entire robot would turn the color of what side they're on.

Please note that I am in no way, shape or form, and engineer or scientist of any sort, and that my sole purpose on my team was that of a dreamer. Whether or not something is truly possible, well, that's a whole other story...

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

It's possible but not practical. There would probably be money and weight issues.No... How about the led bars underneath the Neon underbelly lights.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I would say definitley just stronger and faster blinking LEDs. They are simple, solid-state, and can be reliable if they aren't on the outside of your robot.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

One important thing to note about raising the blink rate on the LEDs;

Once you get up into the 2-4 times a second rate, you do run the risk of causing epileptic seizures in some people. It's rare, but when you're dealing with 20 thousand people at nationals, there is the potential for a problem.
Good enough reason to leave the blink rate were it is now.

I also think the LED's are very powerful as they are. Try looking at one with the cover off. It hurts! Stronger ones would probably not increase their visibility much more. The fields are lit up so much that anything is going to look dim in comparison, but I can usually see them even outside on a sunny day.

I don't think there really is a problem big enough to warrant any change. Teams will be more careful in placing the panels next year, I hope. After that, I think they were fine.

-Andy A.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

how about just a flag that can be secured on the top of the robot, and then taken down when you need to switch?
--d0ri

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

The problem with that is in the word "secured" as games do tend to get a bit, shall we say, interactive, at times. Flags would fall off very easily and get lost easily as well.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I like the idea of LEDs, but not the current ones. I know Dave explained the reason behind it and such, but I still think this year's sucked. I think there should be a cross between the LEDs and the spinny lights. Imagine having the LEDs spin 180 degrees, then go back the other way, etc. I think that will catch people's eye well.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I liked the LEDs this year, but I think they could be a bit bigger, more durable, and there should be more of them. Since robots are really diverse sometimes it's hard to cover all sides with four lights. Besides, robots are always cooler when they have flashing and blinking lights all over them. Also, I don't think anyone in the stands will have a seizure from watching the field from so far away if the lights are blinking faster: they're so small.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Personally, I never noticed the LEDs. During the course of a competition, I never once saw an LED. I always would look for the number on the side of the robot, then scan the LED signs above the player stations and match them up. Once you've done that a couple times, you'll remember quite clearly which robot is on which side, and the LEDs will have been proven unnecessary.

Anyone else do something like this?

MrToast

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Exactly

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I think FIRST should go back to using the revolving lights, but I don't think they should stick with the "dome" type lids. These lights have a more sleak design and would allow for it to be fit into tighter spaces.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

yeah i hated the bulky lights hard to find a place to mount the light-- sort of forgot about it sometimes even this year with having the 4 lcds-- needed to find space for it but it was still better than the lights-- lcd are totally better and cool i personally think


enjoy y'all

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I would be in favor of using a different approach than LEDs, a more high power approach. Yes, I want to go back to the Spikes; with a twist, blink automotive turn signal lights.

Revolving lights are heavy and the attention grabbing effects of rotation can be reproduced by blinking the light. Create a package just large enough to enclose two automobile turn signal type light bulbs. Except our light bulbs will be wired red and blue. The wiring would be exactly the way a double solenoid would be.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

A an announcer I definately did not like this years lights. Some teams hid them, others had them flat on top and some teams had the wrong colors hooked up. When trying to call the game, watch all the robots and keep track of who's who, we need clearer identification.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

You know how teams usually have signs which they later post on the sides of the robot to identify them? If they were to create two sets of signs (where each set would be either blue or red), it'd be easy just to zip-tie the correct set to the robot after each match.

(Probably wouldn't work too well with the designs of some robots, though..)

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I don't see a problem with red and blue flags. All you have to do is make them with a brass gromet and zip tie them towards the top of the robot, remember the KISS rule.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Teams would find a way to break it/lose it/otherwise render it useless. Thigns can get quite competetive with certain teams on the field, and accidents always happen.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

That statement could be made about anything.

Personally I never noticed the lights either, and that was sorta a disadvantage as a driver, because I had to find the team number instead. A more powerful LED system with long blinks with short intervals would work fine. But they definately need to be much more robust, because my team broke at least 8 or so of them during our season. In the end we resorted to using clear packaging tape.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

How about flags? Thats one ghetto solution that works pretty well. Put colored flags which have a luminescent dye in them that glow your color. And I agree, the rotating light should be saved for RoboCops.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

People can break anything you give them, the thing is with flags is that they are inexpensive and easily replacable.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Coloured cards were used prior to 2000, if I remember Fury (the 1999 robot) correctly. The original rotating lights were added in 2000, and have menaced teams ever since. (They draw current that could/should be used in a drivetrain....:p )

I seem to remember one team (maybe in 2002--it was at Epcot) with rectangular LED panels, about 4" × 6", with alternating red and blue diodes (as decoration, I presume). How about they give us a few of those? (Actually, 3" square would be more conveniently sized.)

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I think flags are going to be too much of an entanglement hazard. Then again the those LED lights should be relatively inexpensive. Im not sure which team did this at SPBLI but they actually created their team number using Led's and a circuit board. It was very cool looking.I doubt that's going to work. The glow would be too weak of a color to see it unless you are really close. I don't think going back would be a good idea. LED's can beat a light bulb in every single type of application.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Oooo, now THERE's a good idea! My suggestion: In the KoP, have 2 circuit boards (like the ones from those make your own circuit board kits) and also lots and lots of little LEDs that can shine either red or blue. Each team would then place the LEDs on the circuit board so that they formed the team number. Say maybe two of these per robot, placed on opposite sides of the robot. Then during the match, it would be a trivial thing to get the LEDs to shine in either red or blue, so in addition to seeing the alliance color of the robot, you also see what team it's from.

MrToast

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Alright, so the idea is that faster blinking/brighter LEDs won't work.

So how about just putting more on them? If nothing else, it'll give folks' eyes more of a chance to actually see the darn things.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

I think IFI did a great job on the design and development of the LED team color cluster blocks. they were a great idea and for the first time as a running prototype, i think they turned out better then anyone could have thought. Yes there are a few problems that developed over the course of the year but i think like anything the first time its ever used, there will be some problems. I dont have a doubt though that IFI will improve on the LED blocks and have a better version for next the 2005 competition season.

Once again Thanks for all your work IFI and great job on the led's...

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

i never seen it as a problem because i never paid attention to the lights ever. as a driver and as a spectator it was never a problem knowing witch robot is on witch side

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Okay...This is my suggestion...

Personally I don't think the LEDs are very visible, certianly not when compared with the lights. I think FIRST should bring back the lights but do it the right way. By that I mean that the lights should not count as part of the robot...similar to "bumpers"...they should not count against weight or size requirements. Personally I've always thought that it should have been this way, and it seems like the best of both worlds. Plus lights = more carnage :-) hehehe

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Not to take this off topic but is this like how blue lightning "invented" infinate scoring in 1995...lol i mean it always seems blue lightning members have the wackiest and best ideas at some points.
But yeah if some how ifi was able to make these led clusters either blink while the robot is disabled and blink a different "speed" like they did this year during auton, but have it constant on during normal play, i think it might work better.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (6/21/04)
 

Remember that IFI had a short time to design these devices. Im a hundred percent sure that any problems with the LED's this year are easily fixable. LED's usually surpass the light bulb as a source of light in most areas.