Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

So, I have to pull out the white rabbit from this hat.
Would you trust your life to the heart dialisys machine Dean invented when he was about 20?

He has had no formal degree - (Dropped out of WPI remember), other than honorary ones. I know that is a stretch, but there are exeptions to every rule.

I mean no disrespect towards Dean either by mentioning that he has no degree, but you can be an engineer with no degree.
edit:I have to ask the question now. Do you consider Dean an Engineer or a spokesperson for engineering related fields?

Unfortunately in this world, if you are to work for a company and not become an independently wealthy individul from your abilities like Dean has, they do care about that piece of paper from your college...

I do agree with Paul that if you are in HS or your first years of college then you are not considered an engineer..
I mean I have been going to college for 7 years on and off now for an engineering related degree, and while I am very proficient in my skills as a CAD Draftsperson I am not by any means an engineer. I suck at math, and sometimes wonder why I am in the engineering field, but I do great things with CAD so that's what keeps my hope alive.

Ok, anyways.. I'm done ranting now.

For all of those HS students that plan on going into some sort of Engineering field, I wish you luck and hope that you achieve that goal and can be called an Engineer someday and have the respect and admiration that comes with that wonderful profession.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

It's black and white to pretty much everyone.

Watching ER on TV does not a doctor make you.
All these "kids" who think they're engineers because they do FIRST, just need to realize they don't know "crap" yet.

Let's consider:
Step 1 - Think back 5 years, did you "know everything" back then?
Step 1.5 - Did you think you "knew everything" back then?
Step 2 - Think about now... do you "know everything" now?
Step 3 - What do you think you'll know in 5 years? What will you think about yourself NOW, in 5 years?

My typical Answers:
1. Wow, I didn't know anything back then.
1.5. Ohh yeah... I thought I was the man back then.
2. Heck yes I know everything! I'm the man!
3. Hmm... I guess in 5 years, I'll realize I didn't know anything right now.

It's a humbling process. ;)


I've been in FIRST for 5 seasons. I've finished 3/4 of a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I learn something new everyday. I am NOT an engineer yet. I may work as one, but until I get that degree... I'm not.


Back to the real topic of this thread--
I'm majoring in mechanical engineering for several reasons.
Mainly because, mechanisms and machines are cool. Seriously.

I'm the type of person that will be (and has been) highly amused by an egg-beater.
(Seriously, check one out sometime, cool/simple little mechanism).

I have actually sat up at night, thinking about designs I'm doing at work, unable to sleep until I figure out the problem in front of me.

Go MechE... it's fun.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

Unfortunately, the same could be said for engineers with degrees. The feilds themselves are changing so much that you really need to constantly refresh yourself. So much so that I know to keep an engineering liscence in New York you have to prove that you are taking seminiars or collge courses. Also by the second year of college I will be working as an engineer. Im not sure what I'm going to be doing but I will be working.:)

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

Yep...
I was working as an engineer (or at least, working very closely with one) when I was a Junior in High School.
I wasn't an engineer. I'm still not.

There is a distinction to make.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

While the boundaries of being/not being an engineer are kind of fuzzy, here's a great way to describe, in my opinion.

You have a degree: The university is giving you a piece of paper that says, "We've taught you a formal background in _______, therefore you can say you have the knowledge of many professors, other students, mentors, etc. Go out and use it wisely." Afterward, as is true with all professions, you will learn more real-world applications and the tricks of the trade.

You don't have a degree: You have no person or institution backing what you may or may not have learned. Your projects and examples are not as credible. While you may work with others and gain some experience, or may work in the position of what you'd like to be, you will not have the same benefits that one with a degree might have, especially if you have taught yourself.

I'm sorry. You are not an engineer.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

Of course, you understand that it's not as if Dean started a little assembly line in his dorm room and hospitals started handing the machine out at the door when he first came up with the idea, right? Dean may have designed the machine, but it was still the responsibility of professional engineers to evaluate the design to ensure its safety and functionality. Dean is a smart man, but by no means is he a one ring circus.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

Ooo I give up. The stupid computer logged me out. I will have a job working as an engineer by the end of my sophmore year. It is a program that alternates between work and schooling. There are at least two colleges that I know of that do this. These are real paying jobs and by the end of my college education I will have eighteen mothes of work experience.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

This is a great experience. Most, if not all, engineering schools have similar placement programs for current students to have co-op jobs or internships at companies. Even the small engineering school I attended had a good co-op program. Not only do you get good money, but you also aquire marketable experience while figuring out what sort of engineer you want to be.

For any student who is getting an engineering degree, I suggest you get an internship or co-op* job. Both are very valuable when the time comes when you are looking for a full-time position.

* Traditionally, in engineering fields, internships are jobs worked during the summer months while co-op jobs are for students who alternate between work and school each semester.

Andy B.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

I would say that you are not an engineer until you've both obtained the aforementioned peice of paper AND done something with your tumescent engineers forebrain. :D

That said I do think that there are a few exceptions to the rule, Dean Kamen for instance. Another good one is Bill Gates who, if I'm not mistaken, dropped out of college to start microsoft. I'd consider him a software engineer. Not a GOOD software engineer but... ;)

Astronouth: You've just become some sort of pariah in the FIRST community. I'd apologize, a lot, fast.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

Well, it looks like you've taken some heat for this quote. Whether or not you agree with the other responses, many of us mentors on these forums who have earned degrees in engineering (me: BSE, Computer Engineering, University of Michigan) do get offended when we see students call themselves engineers. I thought I'd give you my personal reasons for why I feel that high school students are not engineers, with a heavy emphasis on the software engineering perspective.

Software engineering is an interesting field because almost anyone with a PC at home can learn some of the skills required by it. Students interested in software engineering can sit at home, learn programming languages, write code, and perhaps even release products to others, with little more than a $1000 computer that most people probably already have anyway. Contrast this to mechanical engineering where you can probably design a part at home on your PC but it's much more difficult (and expensive) to actually produce that part or sell it to others. I noticed this theme in college quite a bit: even in our freshman computer engineering courses we were writing real programs, compiling, and testing them. Most other disciplines were primarily working with equations and story problems for the first year or two. This is both a good thing and a bad thing at the same time. What this means is that the world of software is very tinkerer and hobbiest friendly, because the cost of entry is so low. This causes a lot of people who know how to tinker with computers and how to program to think they are software engineers, but they're not.

I know this is getting long already, but I have a little more to say, so bear with me. There is a distinct difference between a software engineer and a programmer. I've seen people in many places (even on ChiefDelphi) claim that people who write software for a living are not engineers because programming is really not an engineering discipline. At first, I'm offended. When I think about it for a second, though, I realize I mostly agree. Programming is not necessarily an engineering discipline, but it can be.

The reason that I do not hesitate to call myself a software engineer is simple: our software development process is just like any other engineering discipline. When we are ready to create a new software product, we do not just start hacking on code (like many programming hobbiests do). We start by gathering customer requirements. We break these customer requriements down into various product requirements. We break those requirements down into software subsystem requirements. And we keep going until we have requirements that tell us exactly what each piece of software needs to do. Once that's done, we move into an architecture phase. Architecture is where you determine which functions or classes will be used and what they will do (or, "How do I effectively organize my code to implement the stated requirements?"). Next is design, where you add more detail to the architecture. Arguments for each function & method are determined, class attributes are determined, etc. Only after all that is any code written. Many software engineering projects run for months or even years before anyone even begins to write any code. Then, after the code is written, there's lots of testing. We do unit tests (which is just testing the piece of software we wrote), integration tests (verify that your stuff still works when combined with other people's stuff), box test (verifying that the entire product does what it's supposed to do), and system test (verifying that every product in the system works correctly with all the other products).

This software development process is (I believe) very similar to the processes used in other forms of engineering. And, even in college they didn't really do a great job of teaching us all of that. It was only after I started my job that I really learned what "software engineering" (versus programming) was all about. I probably only spend 10% of my time as a software engineer actually writing code. The majority of my time is all the other stuff I mentioned, which is also the stuff that 99% of the hobbiest and moonlight programmers usually don't know anything about. If you do happen to follow all those steps when you develop your projects, then great: you're definitely ahead of the game, and it will benefit you. But I can tell you that most companies like Motorola are not going to hire someone to write software without a formal degree, because it's pretty difficult to verify someone's abilities like that. At least when they hire someone with a degree the odds are better (though still not 100%) that they will know what they are doing.

Bottom line: hobbiests, hackers, and tinkerers can fiddle with something and make it work. Engineers are people who engineer solutions to problems.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

First to answer the question that started the thread:

I a mechanical because I always was fascinated by machines. I still am. I got my degree from the Univertsity of California, Irvine. I also was fortunate to work one summer as an intern for Rockwell Int'l on the B-1 program. After I graduated I started working here at Northrop Grumman. At the time I figured I would stay four or five years and then get out of aerospace. Somehow I'm still here, twenty two years later. I work doing the process tweaks that Andy Baker hates. But often these involve designing new tooling so I get to design stuff too.

Now to address the other topic that has come up:

In all fifty states to advertise your services as an engineer to the general public, you must have a Professional Engineer's license in the discipline you are practicing. As a Mechanical PE I can design an air conditioning system for a building, but I cannot design the building itself. That's a civil job and requires different expertise.

It is possible to become a PE without going to college. To do so you must first pass the Fundimentals of Engineering exam. I took it in my junior year in college and passed. Back then it was called the EIT (Engineer in Training) exam, but they cover pretty much the same stuff. All disciplines take the same FE exam. After passing the FE, you need to work under the supervision of a licensed engineer for four or six years. Four with an engineering degree and six without. Then you need to get references from several other engineers familiar with your work. At least one or two of these should be PEs. After all this you get to take an eight hour exam. If you pass, then you can legally call yourself an engineer. The exams are very broad. It is unlikely that a person who is just working someplace and trying to pass based on their experience would be able to do so. The questions generally cover all the corners of a good engineering curriculum.

So what about all these guys running around working at companies and calling themselves "engineers"? Most never bother to take the PE so how can they do that? First of all, their services are not marketed directly to the public. Their company develops products that are in turn sold to others. The company operstes under a "corporate license". Somebody there will be a PE and have "responsible charge" over the design of the products. If there is a liability issue with the product, that person will be on the stand in court and they'd better have some good answers.

As long as the "engineer" title is only used internally, it is acceptable for non-PEs to be called engineers by the company they work for. Sometimes the "supervision" can be pretty tenuous. There are three or four levels between me and the "chief engineer" on the programs I work. But then I can sign off on stuff myself if I want :D

Call yourself anything you want, but the Engineer title has a price tag. You can earn it through study and hard work, or you can just hang out a shingle. But the later will probably earn you at least a fine and possibly jail time.

ChrisH

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

Oh I can see this reply will take at least my lunch break....

I have Bachelor of Science and Master of Engineering degrees in Mechanical Engineering. My dad was a Civil Engineer and he enjoyed his work so I leaned toward engineering; in high school I decided I wanted to pursue Solar Energy and most of that work was in mechanical. University of Florida had the premier Solar Energy research program so I went there; interestingly, the only course I ever took in solar energy was taught in EE (Solar Electrics).

I have my PE license but have never "officially" signed anything off as a PE.

My father was a PE, but he didn't have a degree (that's no longer possible to do, at least in Florida). He couldn't afford to finish college, so he took engineering correspondence courses while working as a draftsman to learn the material; he eventually made partner in his engineering firm. He had the education but not the diploma.

My personal belief is that either a state license or a diploma from an accredited engineering program at a university/college makes you an engineer. I work with alot of pretty smart people who are not engineers, some of whom can do certain engineering functions better than me. I'm not necessarily better or smarter than any of them - I've just been blessed with the opportunity to go to college and get a formal education so that gives me several advantages. The biggest distinction is the range of my capabilities, which is what I thinks distinguishes an engineer - the ability to use the scientific method to solve any problem.

When I graduated from college I worked for TVA at Browns Ferry Nuclear Plant directing field modifications to make sure they were in accordance with code. I went from there to McDonnell Douglas Astronautics (now Boeing) in Huntsville designing structures for Spacelab. I came back to Florida to work at Pratt & Whitney designing and building advanced gas turbine engine components (afterburners, nozzles), and I ended up at Perry Technologies designing and analyzing underwater vehicles. One week I'm detailing a mechanism in ProE, the next week I'm performing structural analysis in Nastran or developing my own code for shock loading, the next week I'm doing heat transfer analysis to keep electronics cool. Each time I went to a new job there were designers with tons of experience doing the same thing; if you design pumps for 25 years you'll get pretty good at it, but if that's the limit of your knowledge then that's all you'll be able to do. If something major changes that's outside your experience, you need to understand the "whys" and not just the "whats". I can usually tell who has a degree and who doesn't by the questions they ask.

Dean is no doubt very smart, very gifted, and very good at what he does. I'm sure he educates himself as necessary to make the right decisions. I wouldn't consider him an engineer, but I'd probably hire him anyway ;) The best person for a particular job may not be an engineer.

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

so i'm thinking maybe we need a new title for this thread...or a new thread all together...i like this discussion...just not under this title

much love

-Collin "I'm not an engineer but I play on a robotics team" Fultz

Re: Attention engineers...What type are you and why?
 

A few things sparked by this thread.

1. To those who talked about the PE license: Thank you for the information.

2. For those who have multiple master's degrees: a) why do you and b) what are the benefits, if any?

3. Do you treat graduates of an accredited engineering school differently than a non-accredited? I know a student who wanted to transfer from a non-accredited school to an accredited one only to find that the classes wouldn't be counted since they were taken at a non-accredited school.

4. To reiterate what JVN said:

I had a prof. that had a PhD. He told the class the following one day.

"You get a bachelor's and think you know everything. You get a master's and realize you don't know everything. You get a PhD and realize you know nothing."

5. I am in my last year of attaining a bachelor's in Manufacturing Systems Engineering and Management. (All one major.) I ended up here in a very round-about way, but I am finding that the classes in Lean Manufacturing and CAD were the most fun for me to this point. I have will get all of my automation classes this coming year, but I expect that they will be great fun since I love machining, a touch of programming (doing CNC code from scratch), and designing components for FIRST Robots.

My ideal job would be to either: 1) work in automation/robotics or 2) combine my love of manufacturing with my love of food. I can even envision using a CNC and an Inkjet Technology Rapid Prototyper to carve or build things using chocolate.

My dream if I won the lottery: Open a bakery that was run by robots from baking to cashiering!

indieFan