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Corey Balint 02-08-2004 19:37

Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Well i just discovered this thread from last year( http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&page=2&pp=30 ), and figured it would be a good discussion again, with the input of this years bots. I also want people to think of new ideas, rather then seeing they posted last year, and then they wont post again.


I'll state my case for 67 this year. A bot made like no others. Completely original design. They could doo soo much, capping, hanging, blocking, semi-corraling, superior defense, the amazing autonomous, and just overall design. I never thought something like that would be built. Just a genius idea. They simply dominated in Newton, and more or less had everyone trembling at the site of them.

Koko Ed 02-08-2004 20:21

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey Balint
Well i just discovered this thread from last year( http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&page=2&pp=30 ), and figured it would be a good discussion again, with the input of this years bots. I also want people to think of new ideas, rather then seeing they posted last year, and then they wont post again.


I'll state my case for 67 this year. A bot made like no others. Completely original design. They could doo soo much, capping, hanging, blocking, semi-corraling, superior defense, the amazing autonomous, and just overall design. I never thought something like that would be built. Just a genius idea. They simply dominated in Newton, and more or less had everyone trembling at the site of them.

That robot was an offensive machine but that poor robot was just about doing everything and a bar runner like 868 was its worst type of robot to face (and this shoebox on wheels at Buckeye that harrassed them to distraction that they forgot to score).They and Webstar Sparx and GRR Robotics had an awesome run this year at Clevelanfd and the Championship.
Best robot we hooked up with this year

(and got hooked on :o )

Jaine Perotti 02-08-2004 20:46

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
There are so many incredible robots out there, it is nearly impossible for one to say that a particular robot is unarguably the best one. There are so many teams out there who deserve recognition for their robot's performance this season. Because of the many robots that I haven't seen, it is difficult for me to say which robot truly deserves the title of "the best", but I will nominate one particular team for being the closest I have seen to it.

Based on what I have seen personally, I'd have to argue for team 571's robot (although I may be a bit biased -- we were the winning alliance together in Hartford). They could collect balls efficiently and very quickly, cap the 2x easily, and play a really good defensive, strategic game. They could prevent other robots from scoring, as well as score many points for themselves because of their powerful drive train. Their robot was a well designed machine that was very versatile; for example, they were also able to right a tipped over alliance partner with their ball arm (they have done this multiple times for us). In Atlanta, they were undefeated on Archimedes field until the semifinal rounds, which in itself is quite an accomplishment for this year. The matches they lost were few and close...they always put up a good fight and played their matches extremely well. Their team has been very helpful to us this year...offering good friendship and advice to our team members. Thank you 571 for being one of our best alliance partners!!

J Flex 188 02-08-2004 21:09

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Beatty this year was efficient at everything they did. Superior defence and offense and the articulated chassis was just awesome to watch. And they managed to still use PVC for almost everything ;)

Astronouth7303 02-08-2004 21:13

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
HOT rocked. They were at both Buckeye and West MI (the 2 we went to). And they did really good in both. Not to mention the coolest stools!

Their auton was perfect and flawless. The design was excellent. They did everything we wanted to, and then some.

Billfred 02-08-2004 21:16

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
I can't say I've seen the best robot ever, given my one year in FIRST.

And I'm not even going to try and judge the best of this year, given that there were so many good ones. (S.P.A.M. comes to mind, as do the Killer Bees ball herder and 237's monkeybot.)

But y'all had better look out for 1319 (aka Golden Flash or Golden Strip Flash, depending on which source you see). Their robot was at Palmetto (and I think they were in Atlanta, too--just not on Archimedes), and they had the whole schimaymay when it came to balls. They could do anything with a mobile goal with such precision that it wasn't even funny. Lots of balls were scored by them, making for a nice balance with any robot that hung. I see them becoming a force to be reckoned with.

Cory 02-08-2004 21:29

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Team 254. I know statistically you cannot make this claim, but I think they are.

I know they and 60 had the same robot, but I think 254's drivers put them over the top. I think they've had the best driver in FIRST for the last four years.

Their robot did everything extremely well this year. Their autonomous mode was the fastest of any I've ever seen this year. They corralled tons of balls every match. They almost always got the big ball fast and easily, and could cap any goal with ease unless their grabber got caught on the PVC poles. After resolving the problems with their cable fraying and tangling they hung incredibly quickly from the floor.

$0.02

Cory

Kyle Love 02-08-2004 22:11

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
I have a tie for my favorite for the best robot. I liked both 71 and 494. The thing I liked best about 71 was that they had awesome capabilities to maneuver around the field and hold off other teams from capping, and at the end of the match they always seemed to cap their goal with a lot of little balls and hang. I also liked 494's robot. It may not have been the most sophisticated but it played the game their drive team wanted to play the game and thats why I think they won nationals. We lost to 71 and 494 in the Archimedes Finals. I think we did great for going up against those two very tough teams but they just out played us. But, getting back to the topic, 71's name("The BEAST") doesn't lie, it is one huge robot.

-kyle

Collin Fultz 03-08-2004 07:40

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
When answering the "best robot ever" you have to look at who totally dominated the game. From my involvement with FIRST, you have to go all the way back to 2001. Hammond's bot in 2001 was amazing. Countless high national high scores, National (back then it was nationals) Champions, Motorolla Midwest Champions. Totally amazing robot.

Michael Leicht 03-08-2004 08:04

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
469 was the best robot ever because it did not hang. but took a different idea on winning with it sucking up small balls yet having the ability to cap the goal with a strong caping tool with the four parts holding that ball.

J Flex 188 03-08-2004 10:15

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
kudos to 45 for having the same aformentioned game plan with an amazing ability, as well as the ability to hang (but i believe they never had to/meant to during a game)

Mr. Lim 03-08-2004 12:45

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Two minutes...

One robot...

210 points.

... without hanging ...

... ROOKIE TEAM ...

That's a pretty strong case for 1241 isn't it?

Arefin Bari 03-08-2004 13:04

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
45 and 67 were great this year... whenever i think of 45 now it reminds of the killer arm and 67 reminds me of the wedge... two great teams with two great robot... :)

abeD 03-08-2004 14:22

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Well since this is the best ever thread I'm going to throw in some robots from past years

2003: 111...Overall just blew every other robot away..if it wasn't in defense of the ramp it was in its incredibly flexible autonomous.

2002: Even though 71 won, I have to go with 60 and their helicopter style of lifting the goals and letting them spin

2001: This was my first year so the robot that stands out the most was 312 (which one of the first great robots i saw in my rookie year), becuase of the way it seamlessly performed all the tasks in that game.

Jason Morrella 03-08-2004 19:03

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
I decided to base my list on one primary criteria – which robots in the history of FIRST (that I observed) did I feel were best designed and built for a particular game. When I got to a point that I couldn’t decide between a number of great robots, I fell back on the hypothetical question “if I had to pick one robot for one single match and they’d have the same identical alliance partners, which would I pick”. Some won Championships and some didn’t – but we all know some times teams just get some bad breaks at one event while everything might go as planned at another. All listed performed incredibly and were considered by many in the FIRST community amongst the “favorites” to win that years competition. So here are SOME of the robots I would consider the best ever built in FIRST.

2001 Team 71 Beatty Robot - it would be impossible to nail any game any better, all one could do is hope to design and build a robot to play the game so perfectly that you might tie them. It was virtually impossible to beat 71 unless they or their alliance made a mistake. This robot (along with the next one) was as close to a perfect design for a game that FIRST has ever seen.

2002 Team 60 Kingman Robot - the only other robot I've ever seen to pull off exactly what the 2000 Beatty machine did – perfect design for the game, basically unbeatable. This robot could not be beaten unless a bad break beyond their control opened the door for an opponent. These two robots (2001/71 and 2002/60) are the only two robots I've ever seen in FIRST where opposing teams basically knew that even if they played a perfect match for “their” robot, they couldn’t beat 71 or 60 unless those teams made a mistake or something broke.

2000 Team 47 Chief Delphi Robot - years ahead of it's time. One the most versatile, impressive, and spectator jaw dropping robots ever in FIRST. Collect balls from the floor or Human player, could score AND unscore, quick, agile, swerve drive, amazing arm – basically what a robot would be if you could genetically breed a crab with a clam.

2004 Team 254/60 Cheesy Poof/Kingman Robot - possibly the most well rounded robot I've ever seen in FIRST. Each year a few robots stand out for being one of the fastest, one of the most agile, one of the most versatile, one of the highest scoring, one of the best autonomous programs, one of the slickest looking - but rarely has one robot ever accomplished them all in the same year. (hesitated to list any 254 entry, since it's impossible not to have some bias based on past affiliation, but after some reflection I still felt this bot belongs on the list even taken with a grain of salt :) )

2000 Team 111 Wildstang Robot – While excellent arguments could be made to include virtually every Wildstang robot I’ve ever seen on such a list (funny thing, that really holds true for 60 and 71 also), the 2000 robot always impressed the heck out of me. Could collect and score more balls better and faster than any robot I think I saw that year – off the carpet and from the Human Player, could still go under the bar, could still hang, and made what must have been an amazingly complex ball chute system look smooth, fluid, and graceful.

1998 Team 45 Technokat Robot – They say imitation is sincerest form of flattery, and 45 has certainly given many ideas and designs to teams throughout FIRST. Maybe because it was the 1st FIRST Championship I ever witnessed, but this robot has always stood out to me. Might not stand out as “jaw dropping” like some of the others on this list that just perfected certain aspects the game, but this robot did it all, did it smooth, did it smart, and did it well. Fast, agile, great scoring ability, and great versatile design to adapt to however the match was going – offense or defense.

2000 Team 25 Robot – kind of the exact opposite of my review of the 2004 60/254 robot. Didn’t try to be versatile, in fact most teams could do more parts of the game much better than them, but by the playoffs of the championship, they were able to do one thing better than any other team in the country with a design that a few attempted but none perfected (similar to the balance two goals off the bridge aspect of the 2001 Beatty machine). To this day I still can’t look at one of those arcade games with the crane/claw mechanism you drop to try to grab a toy without thinking of that robot.

I can think of 10 or so great robots from the 1999 and 2003 seasons, but can’t really argue any stood out as clearly unbeatable or better than the others in the top tier - mostly due to the design of the 1999 and 2003 games.

In the interest of time, to fill out my top ten just pick a bot from Teams 16, 33, 67, 330, and 469 (now that I count them, I see that makes a "top dozen" list). These teams are consistently so impressive that each have multiple robots from the past 6 or 7 years which would be under consideration for any top ten list. It’s difficult to pick one particular robot of theirs over another but any “top robots in the history of FIRST” list would not be complete without entries from those teams included.

We all know there are MANY other robots from many teams that were so impressive they deserve to be in any discussion of best FIRST robots ever. Since few, or more likely none of us ever see every robot perform every year, the great thing about CD is that many such deserving teams will be listed by different people from different geographic areas in various posts.

indieFan 04-08-2004 16:32

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
I keep reading these lists (Best Ever.. Top Ten.. etc.) and getting annoyed with them. To me, the best robots are not the ones such as Team 254's this year because it seemed to "dominate" the game. Instead, the best robots are the ones that allowed the students to learn something. After all, that is what FIRST is about.

indieFan

JVN 04-08-2004 16:46

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by indieFan
I keep reading these lists (Best Ever.. Top Ten.. etc.) and getting annoyed with them. To me, the best robots are not the ones such as Team 254's this year because it seemed to "dominate" the game. Instead, the best robots are the ones that allowed the students to learn something. After all, that is what FIRST is about.

indieFan

Why are you annoyed that people admire high quality robots?
Isn't this program about inspiration?

See... I'm inspired by the "Best ever.. top Ten... etc.".
Inspiration is the key to this program.

Don't get all high and mighty because you think you understand "what FIRST is about".
Really -- Get a grip. If you're annoyed that people admire the top contenders, perhaps you need to sit down and rethink your philosophy for FIRST.

Heck!
I would venture a guess, that the students on the teams Jason listed above get a lot out of this competition. I bet these same students learn a lot, and I'd even suggest that many go on to successful carreers in science and technology.

It's all about the inspiration.

If you can watch any of the robots on Jason Morrella's list without being seriously impressed, I'd be surprised.

Billfred 04-08-2004 17:04

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by indieFan
I keep reading these lists (Best Ever.. Top Ten.. etc.) and getting annoyed with them. To me, the best robots are not the ones such as Team 254's this year because it seemed to "dominate" the game. Instead, the best robots are the ones that allowed the students to learn something. After all, that is what FIRST is about.

indieFan

I'm inclined to agree, to a point. The robots aren't the sole reason we're here--it's the whole experience that can only be described as FIRST. There is, however, one flaw with that method of declaring a best robot by that criteria.

You can't go through a FIRST season and not learn something. Even if your students had nothing to do with the build, you learn something in a competition. Therefore, all of the robots are on an equal footing (assuming one doesn't say that some robots are more equal than others) when it comes to student learning, in that all of them allowed students to learn something. Therefore, we currently have a 900-way tie for the best robot from this year alone. While possible, it kinda defeats the purpose of having a best robots list. You just have a robots list.

So if we have all of the teams that have ever competed in FIRST meeting this primary goal, then we've got to have something to debate and reminisce about. And it seems that the most-agreed-upon secondary goal is building an awesome robot. That's where these lists come in--we're talking about the teams that have done the best at meeting that secondary goal.

Geeze, I hope that came out right.

Jason Morrella 04-08-2004 17:49

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by indieFan
I keep reading these lists (Best Ever.. Top Ten.. etc.) and getting annoyed with them. To me, the best robots are not the ones such as Team 254's this year because it seemed to "dominate" the game. Instead, the best robots are the ones that allowed the students to learn something. After all, that is what FIRST is about.

indieFan

since this seems to happen on occasion in here, and it's an insult to all teams and the entire FIRST community every time it happens - let's again revisit the definition of IGNORANCE:

1. lacking knowledge or experience 2. caused by or showing lack of knowledge 3. unaware.

If anyone wants to be so childish or ignorant as to discredit all the students on a particular team, keep it to yourself unless you have some facts or knowledge to back up such comments.

Indiefan - YOU HAVE NO IDEA what students on ANY team listed in this thread learn in building their robots. You have NO IDEA how involved those students are in building, testing, fixing, and maintaining their robots.

If you want to ASSUME students on certain teams aren't involved or don't learn, that's your right to make assumptions without any actual knowledge to base such a conclusion on.

On the other hand, you might be impressed if you try to get to know students on the teams you "assume" don't involve students. You might learn something you didn't know and be better for it.

IMPORTANT: The question was "best robots ever". To pick any team number out and imply their students didn't learn as much or more than students on other teams, or that their students weren't involved and critical to the success of their robot, just because they had an impressive robot that year is just sad - especially when you know NOTHING about that team.

As an example, out in California the past couple years STUDENTS (not mentors, but students) from teams like 254, 22, 599, 294, 481, 330, 192, and others have fixed robots of OTHER teams, have taught OTHER teams how to program their robots, have manned machine shops to repair other robots at events, have taught workshops to other teams and mentors, and so on. These students learned these skills because they are so involved in the building and maintenance of the robots on THEIR teams. If you make the assumption that just because a particular team might "dominate" as you put it, that the students weren't involved or very integral to that success, that is a disservice to you and to the students on those teams. I was at IRI last month, and personally met students on historically "dominant" teams who impressed me so much with how much they knew and have learned in FIRST. It's a pity when people assume that just because they had a beautifully built robot, or a dominant performing robot, that the students on those teams weren't involved or didn't "learn" as much as students on other teams.

Understand one thing - I would have reacted this way regardless of what team number you listed in your post. If you made that assumption about 33, 45, 47, 60, 67, 71, 111, 330, 469 or ANY other team whose robot people have praised in this thread or any other - I would have made the same post.

No hard feelings, and I know the previous post wasn't out and out attacking any team. It seems every year we have to go through the exercise of helping people see when they are assuming things or just trying to discredit teams and students for whatever reason when they really have no knowledge or facts to base such comments on. It gets old, but I'm just not willing to let the hard work of any students on any team be questioned or discredited - it's not right, it's not fair, and it wouldn't be right to be silent and let people make such public comments which in many cases are based in ignorance.

Rant over. Hope everyone is having a great summer.

JM

Corey Balint 04-08-2004 17:59

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Ok-shall we just leave that now-and go back to the thread's topic?

Karthik 04-08-2004 19:20

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Okay, here it is, Karthik's top 10 FIRST robots since 1998. I've put a lot of time and thought into this over the past couple days. (Mainly because I have three finals this weekend, and I needed an excuse to procrastinate)

The criteria I looked at when coming up with this list was:
  • Ability to control the game
  • How far apart they were from the rest of the field
  • Technological innovations
  • The "Wow" factor -- Did this robot make jaws drop.
T10. Team 71 & Team 16, 1999

These teams did everything. They moved that puck around as if they were Gretzky, they raised their floppies into the air with ease, and they always got off the ground. There were some amazing robots in '99 (45, 111, 1), but these two stick out in my mind.

8. Teams 60/254, 2004

Yes, I'm listing them as one entry. I feel bad placing them this low on the list, because I spent most of the 2004 season talking about how I though this was the best robot in FIRST history. But after looking at all the other robots out there, I couldn't move them up. This more has to do with the lack of a control strategy in the 2004 game, rather than any inherent weakness in the 60/254 bot. This robot blazed through autonomous mode, could herd balls, manipulate the big ball like no other, and hand with relative ease. The most agile non-strafing robot I've ever seen. Watch the video of the poofs at Silicon Valley. They owned that regional. They made everything they did look so simple. A lot like the #6 robot on this list. On an unrelated note, I swear Team 60 was cursed this year. If you look at how they lost in Colorado and Nationals, you'll see what I mean.

7. Team 111, 2003

There weren't a huge variety of strategies in 2003, and one of the main ones went like this. Knock down the stacks, get to the top of the ramp and defend. Teams who played this strategy usually ended up on top of the ramp after about 1:00. But one team was consistently getting up there in 15 seconds, during autonomous mode. How? With StangPS. In my opinion, the coolest technological innovation in FIRST history. Before each match, they told the robot where they wanted it to go, and it went their. Every time. It was a thing of beauty to watch. Add this amazing controls innovations to a typically flawless Wildstang mechanical design, and you have the robot of the 2003 season.

6. Team 47, 2000

To this day, I'm still shocked that this robot didn't win a national championship. The robot did everything so smoothly and fluidly. The strafing setup was amazing. (It served as the inspiration for 1114's 2004 SimSwerve design) Score, descore, score. It was fun to watch. I thought they were a lock for a championship (much like 1998, see #2 on this list), but it was broken weld (correct me if I'm wrong) that held them back this year.

T4. Team 60, 2002 & Team 469, 2002

The 2002 game was a strange one. The playing field was simple, and the game was sort of simple as well. It was simple in that a well designed robot could control most matches. So you saw a lot of robots who tried to do the same thing, like grab two goals. Well, lots of teams tried, but some teams did a better job than others. There were two teams who were completely dominant at the two goal strategy. Teams 60 and 469. Team 60 won two regionals, and a division at nationals. The only team that knocked them off was the #3 team on this list. 469 won two regionals as well. The only reason they didn't win their division at nats, was because 121 kind of just stopped moving just short of their endzone. These two teams were example of teams who were basically unbeatable unless something went wrong, or if they faced each other.

3. Team 71, 2002

I placed team 71 ahead of 469 and 60 for a couple of reasons. 1. 71 won a national championship. 2. The the three goal strategy was more dominating than the two goal strategy. 3. They creativity in this design was unmatched, and actually cause FIRST to change the rules in future seasons. The idea of using file cards as traction devices was brilliant. This made the Beatty Machine a virtually unstoppable force. There was no moving them, as they would slowly inch to wards their destination.

2. Team 47, 1998

This robot just slightly edges out 71, 60 & 469 entries from 2002. This robot has special meaning to me, because it really got me hooked on FIRST (along with 111's entry from the same year). Me and a few teammates spent our last spring break of high school road tripping to GLR, to scout and watch. It was the first FIRST event for all of us. The first match I saw was with team 47. I saw their robot drive forward, but then it did something strange... it went sideways. Crab steer! I was shocked, I didn't know that was possible. As far as I know, this was the first time any FIRST team had employed strafing. Add in the fact that they had a massive joined telescoping arm, and I was stunned. Team 47 took home three regional championships that year, and looked like a lock at EPCOT. Unfortunately they fell victim to the dreaded 2 on 1 strategy, that still makes me somewhat queasy. (But that's a story for another thread)


1. Team 71, 2001

The most dominant robot in FIRST history. They were champions and the number #1 seed at every official event they attended (2 Regionals, National). But what's more impressive is the manner in which they did it. No one ever came close to them. In Western Michigan, they were the #1 seed by 40% (They're average score was 1.4 times greater than 2nd place!!!). In Illinois they were ahead of second place by 30%. And at the championships, they were on top by 37%. These are not normal gaps. Their dominance was unreal. Heading to Nationals, it was pretty much understood that Beatty was going to win, barring something miraculous happening. Beatty found a way to put a up a huge score, and perfected it. Great strategy, great design, great execution.

Swampdude 04-08-2004 19:37

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
The 2 that stick out in my mind were:
190 from this year, hanging during autonomous and putting wings over the bar - made my mouth drop
111 from 2001, with all the flippin truss stuff and carrying other bots on the back - made my mouth drop

I just love it when people pull off the over the top and outta the box stuff, that's inspiration!

Corey Balint 04-08-2004 19:57

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
i see 71 in '01 a lot. Does anyone happen to have videos of any of there matches that year? Or any vids of the mentioned top bots?

Karthik 04-08-2004 20:02

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey Balint
i see 71 in '01 a lot. Does anyone happen to have videos of any of there matches that year? Or any vids of the mentioned top bots?

You ask and you shall receive. This is from the team 71 website: http://hammond.k12.in.us/TeamHammond...bot%202001.MPG

If anyone has any video from the 1998 season, I'd love to see it.

Corey Balint 04-08-2004 20:09

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Nice-thanks-and that is quite possibly-the coolest thing ive ever seen. it looks like it could do anything and flawlessly. Thats just wow. I never knew why 71 was so respected, but after that, im kind of suprised everyone doesnt love em.

Does anyone else have any vids of robots-that were just different then anyone elses? Just not comparable to anything. Not even dominate-just odd ones.

JVN 04-08-2004 20:16

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karthik
You ask and you shall receive. This is from the team 71 website: http://hammond.k12.in.us/TeamHammond...bot%202001.MPG

If anyone has any video from the 1998 season, I'd love to see it.

On this topic:
I'm STILL looking for video of Stang 1997, or some good match video from 1999 (preferably involving 95, 157, 176, 71, 27, 111, or 47... I've heard LOTS of stories).

Mike Ciance 04-08-2004 23:03

Re: Best Robot Ever(again)
 
I agree that 67 was the best robot in the competition this year. This is the only time i ever felt so strongly about something like this that i actually went up to one of the mentors on team 67 and said "I hope you guys win, you have my favorite robot."

in 2003 i have to say that i think our robot, the original Evil Machine, was the best one out there. that thing redefined what a great drive base is, and the unfolding mechanism is one of my favorite robot mechanisms ever, even if i did get hit in the head with it. :eek: leaking pneumatics - it's a bad idea to have them running and try to feel for the hole with your finger.

for 2002 i gotta hand it to beatty for picking up the goals with us attached. can't do much pushing when you're off the ground, but hey, our scorpion claws were really good, cuz they never let go! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by indieFan
I keep reading these lists (Best Ever.. Top Ten.. etc.) and getting annoyed with them. To me, the best robots are not the ones such as Team 254's this year because it seemed to "dominate" the game. Instead, the best robots are the ones that allowed the students to learn something. After all, that is what FIRST is about.

i'm with V-Neun on this one. We learn from our failures, but our successes reinforce what we've learned.


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