Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Hi everyone!

I know, I am guilty of missing a week again due to livin la vida loca. Here is this weeks question suggested by Barry from team 1390 (Bonzack1390).

Question of the Week (8/16/04):
Other than the team that you are currently on, Would you rather be on a veteran team with many years of experience, or a rookie team starting from scratch?

As always, yada yada yada, skrach42@aol.com, QuietRiverRage1 on AIM, or just a PM to suggest questions! Have a great week!

-Andy Grady

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Although both have thier advantages, being on a veteran teamis what i would want. Mostly because veteran teams know what they are doing and what does and doesn't work. As long as the teams are open to new ideas and trying new things, i would prefer a veteran team.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

personally, i liked being on a rookie team last year. no-one really had any expectations of us, so when we won, our regional, it was especially sweet. on the flip-side, i probably wouldn't pass up the chance to join a big name team like truck town terror, or techno ticks.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Well, I have been on MOE the past 3 years, and being on a big, experienced veteran team certainly has its benefits, but there are also drawbacks. After having the experience of that, I would like to try a small rookie or inexperienced team, simply because on a new team, there is more flexibility to try something risky, or just run with a new idea. There isnt that "we've done this and it's worked in the past" mentality that many established teams.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

To be honest, I kinda liked being a rookie this year.

We didn't have much of a clue what we were up against, so we did our thing. And that drivetrain is bombproof for it.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Probably a rookie because an expierienced team would tell me to hush up and take a back seat.

[edit]That has to do with the kind of person I am. I don't like to sit and watch when I could be doing something. Actually, it drives me batty.[/edit]

[offtopic]Livin' La Vida Loca is awesome! We're doing it for our half-time show this year![/offtopic]

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

This segues into my answer nicely:
I'd love to spend some time on a really well established team, with some strong engineers and mentors.

I want to learn.

It'd be great to hop onto a team like the Technokats or Team Hammond and just... watch. I'd be content doing nothing but making parts.
Think how much you could learn watching Andy and Mark work on their newest tranny design...

I've got a lot of mentoring role models in my life, but it'd be great to spend some "up close" time with some of them.


Once I've learned "enough" then I'd consider striking off on my own and found my own team.

$.02

JV
(who would love to take a backseat)

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

A rookie team. There's just something about pioneering your way, laying down the threads with which the team will flourish, rather than having a current system spoon fed to you.

I'd like to be on a team with little money, little experience, few resources, but some determined, hard-working students and a devoted teacher. Any out there in Jersey?

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Veteran teams might have a lot of people who are experienced but each year they have a lot of newbies on the team who are not experienced. veterans on the team trains the rookies to have the capability of running the team once the veterans are graduated...

with rookie teams there are some people in the team who has atleast a little bit of experience. and everyone in the team learns from there...

i really dont have preferences of being on a veteran team or a rookie team since both will give me a great experience of team work. both will have a great experience for me... :)

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Most of my reasons have been stated already, but I'd prefer a rookie team. That way I think I'd be able to have more of an impact on the team and the direction of the team (no offense to any big teams out there) This way both myself and my team get to learn better from all of our mistakes, not those of our predecessors, sometimes you just have to learn on your own. Also, this allows us to set our own standards and precedent, not just living up to the standards of previous years from our team.

I don't know about Jersey, but you just described my team perfectly.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I feel that this question is slightly limited in the definition of veteran team. There is a huge difference between powerhouse vets and the rest of the veterans. I feel that every team has the potential to be a powerhouse, hence why these teams can be labeled "fixer uppers"....with the right team mindset, energy to acquire enough resources, and a little luck, any team can become stronger.

Don't underestimate the fixer-upper...that experience can be just as gratifying as sitting in with a powerhouse.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I will lean toward a veteran team. Being a veteran means the "framework" for a team should already be in place so you can concentrate more on designing and constructing a robot instead of a team. I will also venture to say that veterans generally have more and/or better resources available to them. Wether that is shop facilities, funds, volunteers, sponsors or just plain knowledge.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I'd rather be on a rookie team. Usually its their first years that are their glory days and they fair quite well. I was involved with a rookie LEGO league team before my real robotics days that ALMOST made it to states and got a quality research award. As for a rookie team that I wish I was on, 1241 would be that choice. They almost took home GLR, and they would have if some team didn't plop a big ball in their net (no offense) :D .

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Okay A few things...

First of I have to disagree with Jess' post about "powerhouse vets" what the heck is that?? I suppose Beaty is a "powerhouse vet" because they've won like 17 championships, a chairman’s, etc. That being said there are teams who (despite all odds and the best attempts to prevent it) are consistent. The question then is what makes them consistent (I have some of my own ideas but...getting flamed is so yesterday)...Andy are you listening that's next weeks question okay!! However I have certainly seen PLENTY of matches where so called "powerhouse teams" have been given a very serious beating by rookie teams, which in my view is the great part about FIRST. In other sports if you train hard you can become extremely good at what you do eventually...practice makes perfect. Why is this? Because the game stays the same...mixing it up each year helps to keep everyone on a level playing field (usually). In basketball if you are talented you're going to do very well at playing the game. In FIRST there is virtually NO guarantee from one year to the next that you will be a "powerhouse" or will even win a single competition. So how relevant is that label anyways?

Secondly, I think that being a veteran on each type of team has its own serious pitfalls. I think being a veteran on a different veteran team is probably the hardest. I've toyed from time to time with trying to join a veteran team that wasn't my original HS team and I think this is very very hard because each team in FIRST has its own culture, its own inside jokes, that you have to break through. On the other than being on a rookie time presents its own challenges in that you have to balance your know how with the kids ideas and resist the temptation to always be spouting "well in past years." But you don't have to break through that culture, etc. because it is in the process of being created. Ultimately I just haven't found a team that I've really clicked with since the demise of my original team and perhaps I never will.

Those are my thoughts...lengthy as they are,

Justin

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

My choice would be to start a rookie team, and develop it into a veteran team. First off, rookie teams are more friendly to younger students, because seniors, juniors, sophomores, and freshman alike start off on a level playing field. On a veteran team, returning members usually have a job established, which narrows opportunities for new members. Also, going through a rookie year of first together creates a bond between members that cannot be broken. Everyone remembers the same competition as "their first FIRST competition." Remembering the first years, where money was tight and experience was low, would bring joy years later when your team is a chairmans award winner or (insert distinction here). That's all for me.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Exactly!
I have never had the opportunity to work with a veteran team and really learn the ins and outs of setting up a team. I was on team 229 for 2 years. It was the teams 2nd and 3rd years of existence and still figuring out what does/does not work for the team.

From there I started team 891 here in Syracuse. It has been really difficult because nobody on the team really has any experience. Plus we have no mechanical engineers, only electrical :)
So not only are we trying to figure out how to organize the team, recruit, fundraise, etc. we also have no idea what works/doesn't work robot wise.

Fortunately the Liverpool team has been helpful to us, plus I have a friend from Aces High that is starting a team in Rochester so I plan on pumping her for ideas! And lurking around on CD really helps too ;)

I would jump at the chance to observe one of these well established veteran teams to learn how to organize the team, what to do to train students in the fall, and all the little things that end up biting us at the end of the six weeks. Then I would go off and use that knowledge to start a new team.

Kristin

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

When I joined my team they were in their first year, I joined at the end of thier first season so i basicly started on their second year, it was good to have a team that was somewhat established, although they weren't a " veteren " team it was alot of fun, because you were able to explore possibilites that a vetern team wouldn't do. I though it was great learning from our mistakes, i think that makes a good vetern team in the future.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I'd prefer being on a rookie team for plenty of reasons. But, seeing that most of them have been mentioned, I'll keep this concise.

Although rookie teams have hardly been around, it is likely that many very different ideas will come from them - even if the ideas aren't as developed because of less experience. Veteran teams will have creative ideas, too, but might be more likely to base a design on what worked well in the past for them.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I would agree with John. I'd love to join an established veteran team, just to learn. I'm not all that comfortable taking a lead role, and I'd love to be able to work with some of the best minds and greatest people in FIRST. While I would probably enjoy starting my own team, the experience of being with a veteran team would be priceless.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

The reason why I stated that I feel the definition should be split is because of these two comments. I feel that although every team evaluates what it does and decides whether certain areas need fixing, there are some teams that don't want to change the way things are going because they're working.

The question stated simply "be on a team". Certain teams will fit better for different people. If you're looking to take an active role in helping a team, then you can still choose a veteran team - you just have to find one that's ready to make big changes. And there are many out there!
Since the only quantifable way to explain this is through awards (although by no means the only way to measure FIRST success), pulling from Dr Joe's wonderous spreadsheet of teams and Rich Wong's statistics, 375 separate teams walked away with 647 possible awards this year, out of 929 registered teams...an average number of awards for each of the teams who recieved any award of 2.42. Those numbers alone show that there's much room for diversification in award recieving teams - hence there are teams out there who may be looking to make major changes. For some people it's more satisfying that way when success finally comes - because the team has waited so long for it.

Other teams are less likely to change their ways (the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" theory) - they've found what works for them. There are other people out there who are best fit for these teams, such as, but not limited to, people who just want to watch. That doesn't mean that the newcomer can't suggest something, but someone who is looking to take an active role right away on an older team may not be as satisfied here.

There are teams out there that are seriously looking for the help, and there are teams that are not as seriously looking. But because of the different needs of individuals as well as teams, veterans shouldn't be all clumped together just because they all have at least one year underneath their belts.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I really wouldn't know. It would be easy in the long run to be on a veteran team, like mine, but it'd be a good experience to see what it'd be like being on a rookie team. I have heard about the hardships and challenges, but all the same it'd still be amazing to know what it's like. My team still has hardships, like every team, and it does usually seem like we're still a rookie team. But the main thing is you learn from those hard times, and evolve from them.
All the same, I would be on either one. Possibly both ;). Great question!
--Dori

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I would agree that a veteran team may have many things in place already, but if not constantly re-inventing itself, even the veteran team will soon fall apart.

I would argue that one advantage that the veteran team has in place is that it has enough prior knowledge that it can concentrate more on being a team rather than solely focus on constructing the robot, and more students can then become involved in the FIRST program.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I would like to try a year on a rookie team. I really look up to guys like Joe Balint, Rob Mainieri and Rich Wong who are "Pied Pipers" of FIRSTism, starting many teams.

In a few years, I might get a chance to do this. The school district we live in, outside of Kokomo, does not have a FIRST team. The Superintendent and the HS Principal have given me every excuse in the book to not have a FIRST team (not enough money, no lead teacher, no facility, etc.), and they don't seem to be interested at all in starting one soon.

When my eldest daughter becomes a freshman 7 years from now, she will have the choice to be a TechnoKat or to be on a team at her school. If they don't have a team by then, and she wants to be on a team with her friends at her school, then I will help start one.

Andy B.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

hmmm, good question. Almost immediatley you would want to say veteran so you seem to have a good chance on winning. Yes, veteran is good especially for experience, but I believe it would also be fun to be on a rookie team! Do ya'll remember your schools first year??? I bet it was the bestest funest ever! hehe :yikes: While veterans have fun experimenting with what they've learned and crashing old robots, rookies get to joke around a whole bunch and pretend to not know what they're doing (even though they do! hehe)

I think both is great! It's fun either way and each is fun in their own way! Like I said, great question! ^.^

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

That's pretty much my team. Except the little money thing may change by the time 2005 season starts. We are working on it. Feel free to come on over. :)

Personally, I loved my rookie year in FIRST, and I think its mainly because we were rookies and we really had to figure out things as we went along. I understand what JVN was saying, but I think I learn better by just jumping in.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

Sounds just like us (except we're in MI, not NJ). Most of the team is/was class of '04, the teacher that alowed us to use his shop is retiring, and we still need to make up a defecit from our rookie year.

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I just put bunk beds in my son's room. Wanna come to PA for the 06 season? :)

Re: Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)
 

I enjoyed my year on a rookie team. No one really knew what to expect and everything was kind of a suprise. We didn't have big expectations, but when we did well, we were all very happy. During the build season, there was a little bit of unorganization and chaos. There is something about that that I enjoyed. It wasn't a very rigid schedule and allowed for a lot of flexability. The program was new to everyone so no one was better than anyone else because everyone had the same expirience with the program. Now whether that was just the way my team worked or the way all rookie teams are, I'm not sure.
Eric

Rooooooooooooookies
 

This is something that I have been thinking about recently as I continue my efforts to start a team at my school.

Rookie team:
Advantages:
Get to be a founder of the team, knowing what you do will stay with your school and your team for many years to come, possibly affecting many students' futures that follow.
Decide on key factors that mold the team such as name, colors, mascots, etc.
Level playing field with all students no matter what grade they are in... freshman, seniors, makes no difference.
Fewer students that knows the team even exists, meaning more hand on time for you.
Chance at going to the Championship with the Rookie All-Star award
Get to spread the values of FIRST and Gracious Professionalism to more high school students.
Disadvantages:

The unknown... Not knowing what works and what doesn't. One mistake like having a direct drive with the drill motors, and your robot is sitting in the corner all regional.
Not knowing how judging process works, and possibly come up unprepared.
Not having connections to other teams to help you out until later in the year.
Not knowing Chief Delphi exists until someone tells you about it at the regional
Community and even the school unaware of your existence, hard for recruiting and sponsorship
Sometimes drawn out conversations trying to choose simple things like team colors and name. Things like not knowing what your team number is, and waiting for registration, and other things veteran teams have already done can result in less time for offseason learning. Keeping in mind, there also was no summer workshops for a team that doesn't exist.
Even the mentors and teachers are rookies and aren't always sure what works and what doesn't.

Vet team:
Advantages:
Most likely already known in your community, helps for more sponsors.
Already have an idea of who will be on your team next year
More extra parts, and pit materials, and supplies from years past
Old robots that can be used for demonstrations for sponsorship and recruiting more students.
More opportunities to learn battle tested methods
Learn for engineers that have been in it for many years that knows all about FIRST, and tricks of the trade
Multiple regionals.

disadvantages:
The people that stick it out for many years will rise to the top (good thing) but if someone like me were to join a team with 300 kids during his junior or senior year, there’s a chance of being lost in the mix instead of a leadership position like I have now. With 300 kids, and only 4 people allowed to be drivers/human player/coach, no chance of being on the floor driving what you've built.
The best of the best win the awards to make it to championship event (again, good thing), but if you aren't a powerhouse vet, there's a chance you won't get the chairman’s or win the regional.

Help me out with more vet disadvantages; I'm sure there are more than I know.


My final decision is the Good always outweighs the bad, and I can not wait to get my team started here, and am very much hoping everything falls into place correctly. The battle with starting a team is not knowing who will be on your team, not knowing who will be your teacher sponsor, and of course some money issues. When joining a team, it is easy to take for granted that these things are already set in place. Some things like knowing you'll get to go to multiple regionals, and one doesn't have to worry about if they will have a teacher in time for registration dues or not -everyone thank your teacher sponsors next time you see them, they are good people. :o
Many times I wonder what it would be like to be on a powerhouse team. Like JVN said, how awesome it would be to learn from engineers like Andy Baker. I would love to be on 233 and actually build the robot in NASA facilities, what would that be like? Who would you get to meet while doing that? Heck, it would be nice just to have another student on the team that gets as excited about robotics as I do. But these are all just growing pains, and I am in hopes of what I start becoming something great, maybe not a powerhouse, but a good team nonetheless

My long long $0.02, Thanks.
Barry B.

Re: Rooooooooooooookies
 

Many of these can be mitigated by having a good mentor team. Preferably one that has been around several years. 233 would be an excellent choice. They have been around, obviously understand marketing and branding, create innovative robots, and are close enough to be of help in a crunch. (I think, I'm not too sure of Florida geography). Maybe you'd even get a trip inside their shop!

While it is nearly impossible to adequately explain the FIRST experience to a rookie team, much can be done to prepare them in advance. It also helps if there is clear understanding of what is expected of both the mentor and mentee teams.

We have used the following outline successfully in the past:

Sept-Nov
A delegation from mentor team meets with rookies at least twice to help with name choices and organizing. We also make contact everytime there is a major announcement from FIRST to ensure they recieved it and understand it.
We also make sure they are aware of any local events like seminars or off-season competitions.

December
Make sure they have a build location and tools. Get ready for Kickoff

Jan-Feb
"play" the game with human robots. Ensure they understand the rules both for game and robot. Visit weekly to ensure they are staying close to schedule. Provide technical input when asked or it is obvious they are struggling.

March-April
Meet at least once between build and competition. Explain the ins and outs of competition and venue. Make sure they understand judging and alliance picking processes.

May
Year-end debrief. This helps them decide what to do differently and shows holes in the mentoring process.

Next year
Stay in touch. It takes 3-4 years for a team to be fully established. While we don't visit them any more, we still stay in touch with the first team we mentored 4 or 5 years ago. We maintain bonds of friendship with them and are as proud of their accomplishments as we are of our own.