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-   -   segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30019)

MikeDubreuil 23-08-2004 01:28
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
I like how you included several newtonian physics "buzzwords" in your post, almost as though you would use actual physics to back up your argument.

Then kinda trailed off and didn't provide the relevant calculation.
Interesting tactic.
Haha, yeah, it was intended to be a physics problem. However, I was unsure if basic physics equations would work in this situation. Therefore, I was hoping the fast that the Segway does not stop on a dime, and that website proves it was enough. Calculating forces is not a specialty of mine but I'll give it a shot...

F=ma
a = V^2-V0^2/2x
a = 0^2-12.5^2/2(18.6)
a = 8.2 ft/s^2
F=ma = (250)(8.2) = 2050 lbf/ft

Elgin Clock 23-08-2004 01:34
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Martus
When told the bill applied to any ''two-wheeled device" that has handlebars and is powered by an electric- or gas-powered motor, he said: ''That means you have to register riding lawn mowers.
Fogive me if this has been stated before in the previous *46 replies, but I have never seen a riding lawn mower with only 2 wheels....

Maybe this is a new market that Segway can get into?:)

ahecht 23-08-2004 01:45
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerR
unfortunatly, i don't think that college students are going to be the only ones to ever get rundown by segways...
but, a question for those of you who have been hit by segways: while they weren't able to topple you, do you think they could knock over a child? how about an elderly person?
Perhaps, but a jogger could also knock over a child or elderly person in a collision.

MattK 23-08-2004 08:32
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahecht
Perhaps, but a jogger could also knock over a child or elderly person in a collision.
A jogger is most likely not going to be paying as much attention either- they are running their heart is beating and they impaired because they are fatigued...

Stu Bloom 23-08-2004 09:04
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
I’ll try to summarize what he said…
- When a Segway rolls over a person’s foot it doesn’t hurt that bad.
- The Segway differs from other two wheeled devices because balance does not rely on the rotational force of the wheel.
- The Segway is different from a normal impact because once impact is made the Segway will be pushed back and will decelerate rapidly.


Let’s create a scenario with two people Jane a pedestrian and John a Segway rider. Jane is a cute petite 120 pound blonde; John is a 167 pound stallion. John has the rugged i Series Segway which weighs 83 pounds.
John is driving his Segway around Boston’s north-end taking in the city. Jane is busily getting ready for work in her studio apartment. John realizes that if he doesn’t make it to the T in 3 minutes he won’t make it on the last commuter rail train of the night. Therefore, he’s whipping around the city at 12.5 MPH trying to get to the T station. Jane’s running a little late for work and bursts out the door of her apartment building and gets side swiped by John who was traveling at full throttle down the sidewalk. What happens in the collision?

I think there will be a major collision. Jane will be thrown to the ground and may need to visit the emergency room for a broken bone. John will probably be thrown from his Segway as well.

My reasoning is simple; it takes 18.6 feet for a Segway to stop when moving at 12.5 MPH [1], or an average deceleration of 4.2 ft/s. Therefore, there is absolutely no way that the 250 pound mass will cause Jane to experience a slight push, or anything that one would consider casual contact. There will be a violent collision.

[1] http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...way/Segway.htm
Good reference Mike ... did you read the entire paper? Notice in Table 2 that the EPAMD has the shortest stopping distance of any of the devices listed in the comparison.

We all know, especially with the availability of the Internet, that anyone can find any number of like-minded people to spout official sounding dribble to reinforce their position. With regard to the current discussion of Segway safety unfortunately there are many people who don't understand the machine. I would challenge you to find even one person who has spent any significant amount of time on a Segway who doesn't recognize the safety, usefulness, and relatively negligible risk, associated with its use.

greencactus3 23-08-2004 09:25
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahecht
Perhaps, but a jogger could also knock over a child or elderly person in a collision.
they could, but im pretty sure a jogger is abit more nimble than a segway. a human is a "holonomic". the segway is not.
so other than jumping over or dodging away, a jogger can make use of its "holonomicality?" and spin away while also dodging away to reduce the energy of impact. (if thats hard to understand, think, a hurricane doesnt do as much harm on one side of its path as on the other side)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattK
A jogger is most likely not going to be paying as much attention either- they are running their heart is beating and they impaired because they are fatigued...
that is a very irresponsible jogger. i run cross country and run the sidewalks everyday. i am not impaired of judgment just from fatigue.
and if you were to use irresponsible runners as an example, im sure there are few irresponsible segway drivers. if i change a few words from your argument, "a segway rider is most likely not going to be paying as much attention. their exhilaration gets their heart running and they are impaired because they are having so much fun..."

Adam Y. 23-08-2004 09:41
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
F=ma
a = V^2-V0^2/2x
a = 0^2-12.5^2/2(18.6)
a = 8.2 ft/s^2
F=ma = (250)(8.2) = 2050 lbf/ft
Some how some way you botched your calculation. I don't know where you got 250 but I don't think that's right. First of all if you want to calculate force using ft/s^2 you have to use the slugs as mass. I checked and the heaviest segway is only 3 slugs and a 200 pound person is 6 slugs. So its more like 72 pounds of force.

MikeDubreuil 23-08-2004 09:43
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Bloom
Good reference Mike ... did you read the entire paper? Notice in Table 2 that the EPAMD has the shortest stopping distance of any of the devices listed in the comparison.

We all know, especially with the availability of the Internet, that anyone can find any number of like-minded people to spout official sounding dribble to reinforce their position.
Yes, I did read the paper. The purpose of the paper was to prove that the Segway should be legislated as a vehicle. If you take a look at table 2 all the other devices are legislated under vehicle laws and not the proposed EPMAD law. In the conclusion of the paper the author feels the Segway should be treated as an electric bicycle and therefore legislated as a vehicle.

MikeDubreuil 23-08-2004 09:47
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Y.
Some how some way you botched your calculation. I don't know where you got 250 but I don't think that's right.
John weighs 167 pounds and the Segway HT i weighs 83. Their combined weight is 250 pounds.

Adam Y. 23-08-2004 09:51
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
John weighs 167 pounds and the Segway HT i weighs 83. Their combined weight is 250 pounds.
Weight is a force not a mass which is what I assumed you did. You'd have to convert pounds into slugs then throw it back into the equation. The mass used to get pounds is a slug.

Alan Anderson 23-08-2004 13:46
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
My reasoning is simple; it takes 18.6 feet for a Segway to stop when moving at 12.5 MPH [1], or an average deceleration of 4.2 ft/s. Therefore, there is absolutely no way that the 250 pound mass will cause Jane to experience a slight push, or anything that one would consider casual contact. There will be a violent collision.

[1] http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...way/Segway.htm
Your reasoning is missing an important point. The reference you provide does not involve a collision, and over two thirds of the listed distance is reaction time (braking does not begin until four frames after the signal is given, and is complete two frames later). A Segway in forward motion is leaning forward, and will be tilted upright -- or even backwards -- immediately upon running into an obstacle. That stops it rather quickly, usually more quickly than any rider can manage.

To add to the body of anecdotal information, the two Segway/pedestrian collisions I have witnessed were no more traumatic than a typical two-person collision, and I have never heard of someone being knocked to the ground after being hit by a Segway. The worst Segway incident I've seen was when someone fell off after intentionally running over an obstacle, and the results seemed similar to tripping over one's shoelaces. (I don't count the Bush video -- the thing was in "follow-me" mode.)

dez250 23-08-2004 21:10
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
OK i did not want to chime in on this real world situation but i have decided to explain an incident i have had while traveling through Boston on a Segway. The night after Beantown Blitz in June, I went out with Erin Rapacki through Boston to get across town on segways. While traveling down one of the major streets in Boston an accident occurred involving me. I was tailing Erin around a corner, I would say about 25 feet behind her. She Turned the corner and i followed not expecting anything other then a couple odd looks and ohh's and ahh's. Well i was almost hit by a bicycle messenger. As i turned the corner at close to top speed (12.5 MPH), the bicycle messenger notices me and slams his breaks. He lays the bike down and slide under his bike. As soon as i turned the corner and had noticed him i was able to perform an "emergency stop" and stop at that point. The Segway is able to stop within its own footprint, even go backward in a fraction of a second from full speed. Like other Segway owners and users have said, the Segway is a device that is unlike others. If i had to choose to travel in a pack of segways or likewise but only pedestrians, i would choose the pack of segways. I trust a Segway more on the road/sidewalk then i do pedestrians. I hope some more of you will understand that a Segway is not a dangerous vehicle and truly is a revolutionary device.

MikeDubreuil 23-08-2004 23:09
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
This discussion has gotten a little absurd. We are now debating at what force it should be legal to collide with another person. It's bad enough when it happens accidentally during natural pedestrian activities, such as walking or running.

It's heavily debatable as to whether the Segway truly stops in its own footprint or even quickly for that matter. Especially when a somewhat scientific test measured a stopping distance of 18 feet. Sure the test driver might not be a Segway user destined for the X-Games but he showed the stopping ability of the average person.

Therefore, we can be reasonably certain that Segway use will increase the risk of pedestrians becoming the participants of accidents. How are Segways being legislated as an EPAMD good for the general public?

David Kelly 23-08-2004 23:31
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
This discussion has gotten a little absurd. We are now debating at what force it should be legal to collide with another person. It's bad enough when it happens accidentally during natural pedestrian activities, such as walking or running.
You are the one who started talking about the forces. People are big babies about getting run into. 'Waaaa, I got a boo boo'

Quote:
It's heavily debatable as to whether the Segway truly stops in its own footprint or even quickly for that matter. Especially when a somewhat scientific test measured a stopping distance of 18 feet. Sure the test driver might not be a Segway user destined for the X-Games but he showed the stopping ability of the average person.
No test or answer is better than what an actual daily Segway user says and uses them for realworld purposes. If Tom Schindler or Dez say they can stop in a couple feet, then I sure will believe them, not some crazy test person who is doing it according to some calculation.

Quote:
Therefore, we can be reasonably certain that Segway use will increase the risk of pedestrians becoming the participants of accidents. How are Segways being legislated as an EPAMD good for the general public?
That is not true. That what you have been saying the whole time and haven't had much to back it up. Lets start banning electric wheelchairs from sidewalks and stores because they can fall into a crack in the sidewalk and break their necks. :rolleyes:

Stu Bloom 23-08-2004 23:58
Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
This discussion has gotten a little absurd. We are now debating at what force it should be legal to collide with another person. It's bad enough when it happens accidentally during natural pedestrian activities, such as walking or running.

It's heavily debatable as to whether the Segway truly stops in its own footprint or even quickly for that matter. Especially when a somewhat scientific test measured a stopping distance of 18 feet. Sure the test driver might not be a Segway user destined for the X-Games but he showed the stopping ability of the average person.

Therefore, we can be reasonably certain that Segway use will increase the risk of pedestrians becoming the participants of accidents. How are Segways being legislated as an EPAMD good for the general public?
You're right about one thing ... this discussion HAS certainly moved toward the absurd, but as David said, you are the one who started talking about impact forces (and using incorrect calculations/units). I'm starting to think you are just having fun arguing for the sake of the argument...

How do you know that your "somewhat scientific test" was not biased. You said yourself that "The purpose of the paper was to prove that the Segway should be legislated as a vehicle."

"... WE can be reasonably certain ..." ?? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? YOU can be as certain as you like ... you still don't get it!!


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