segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

(relevant paragraph in bold below..)

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art..._on_minibikes/

House votes tighter curbs on minibikes

By David Abel and Elise Castelli, Globe Staff and Globe Correspondent | August 20, 2004

The Legislature took a major step yesterday toward cracking down on minimotorbikes, the 2-foot-high motorcycle imitations that have driven pedestrians and motorists from Boston to the suburbs crazy as they squeal through the streets and swerve between cars in snarled traffic.


The bill, which passed the House of Representatives yesterday, would require drivers of minimotorbikes and Segway scooters be at least 16 years old and have a valid driver's license. They would also be required to follow the rules of the road, such as staying off sidewalks and bicycle paths, driving on the proper side of the street, and using turn signals.

Moreover, scooter operators would not be allowed to exceed 20 miles per hour or drive after dark.

''Every state legislator in this building has received call after call from concerned citizens awoken at midnight to what sounds like a lawn mower zooming the wrong way down the street, playing Russian roulette with oncoming traffic," said state Senator Jarrett T. Barrios, a Somerville Democrat who chairs the Joint Committee on Public Safety. ''Young people are using them in great number and with reckless abandon."

Since the Senate already has adopted the measure, the bill requires only some minor procedural action by both chambers and Governor Mitt Romney's signature before it becomes law. With the Legislature now in informal session, however, one lawmaker could block its progress, although sponsors said they did not expect any opposition.

Local police chiefs, who strongly support state regulation of the popular vehicles, applauded the lawmakers' action.

Waltham Police Chief Edward Drew said he has seen a dramatic rise in the number of minimotorbikes on local streets over the past few months.

''These things are basically creating havoc," Drew said. Their riders ''think they can go from street to sidewalk to street indiscriminately. It's a tragedy waiting to happen."

Since 2000, nearly 85 percent of motorized scooter accidents have involved children under the age of 15, said Anna Waclawiczek, a legislative aide to Representative Robert F. Fennell, a Lynn Democrat who sponsored the bill.

''They just don't have the experience and sense of the road when they're scooting along at 25 miles per hour without a helmet," she said. ''We didn't want to wait for something terrible to happen to file legislation. We're trying to be proactive and put in guidelines so the roads are safe."

A spokeswoman for Romney declined to comment on the bill.

''We'll be happy to review it," Shawn Feddeman said.

Officials in Boston, which last month imposed similar restrictions, said they have seen everyone from young teens to adults do too many dangerous things on minimotorbikes. ''Sometimes you have to legislate common sense," Councilor John Tobin said. ''I can't imagine a street in the Commonwealth that these types of things would be safe on."

Not everyone supports the bill, however.

Robert Brown, 38, is an assistant manager of PepBoys in Dedham, an auto supply store that also sells the mini-motorbikes. He said that if the bill becomes law, some youngsters who now rely on them would have trouble simply getting around. Instead of exploring other neighborhoods, he said, they would be stuck close to home.

''There are two sides to everything," Brown said. ''There are some people out there that use them for transportation. That takes away any right they have to get around."

When told the bill applied to any ''two-wheeled device" that has handlebars and is powered by an electric- or gas-powered motor, he said: ''That means you have to register riding lawn mowers."

The Legislature also sent the governor a bill yesterday that would require anyone 16 or younger to wear a helmet while riding bikes, scooters, skateboards, or in-line skates. It would also require businesses that sell or rent such items to post signs informing customers of the new law.

''Every year scores of children and young teens are hurt in preventable accidents because they were not wearing a safety helmet," said state Representative Timothy J. Toomey Jr., a Cambridge Democrat who chairs the House Public Safety Committee. ''Without the proper equipment to protect themselves, our children are going to continue to sustain serious injury."

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Isn't that exactly the opposite of what Dean wanted? And he worked so hard to let them be allowed on sidewalks and trails!

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I'd like to meet the person who alters their Segway to sound like a lawnmower, and then plays chicken with a Mack truck. Yee haw.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Yikes- Now lets see what segway does about it.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

:eek: I got really scared when reading this, so I quickly switched to my Segway Chat window. There are current discrepancies as to whether or not all of the information is actually valid from the Globe. A possible retraction may be printed in the future for lumping Segs in with the "scooters".

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Awww another SC poster!

This is the thread(s) she is talking about


http://segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8925

http://segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8924

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Apparenltly (after reading the threads) whether or not these restrictions apply to the segway depends on how the segway is classified in your state. Some have it as a pedestrian, others not so. Also, what about motorized wheelchairs and 'amigos' (as my grandma calls them) for the impaired? Are they included in this bill?

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

So, let me get this right, if Segways are lumped in with motor scooters, etc. then they can't drive on the sidewalk, which means that they have to drive on streets, right? I don't think that Segways can go that fast, I think it'd be much more dangerous to have Segways on streets than sidewalks.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

This article is pretty interesting...

One problem with the Segway is that it sits on the fence between a "replacement for walking" and being a motorized scooter. The article points out that the last thing you want coming at you down a narrow Boston sidewalk is a person, driving his 75 pound Segway, at 13 MPH straight at you.

Sure, the Segway loyalists will say "use the sidewalk key." Tell that to some stone headed Bostonian and he'll tell you what to use.

Go-Karts can be operated below 10 MPH, does that mean that we should drive around city sidewalks with them? Should the state set a speed limit on the sidewalk and have police run radar to catch Segway users using the fast keys? Police run radar on normal roads to keep other drivers safe from bad people. There's nothing other than Sidewalk Police or legislation that will keep Boston's pedestrains safe.

Astronouth7303,
The Segway website lists Massachusetts as a state that does "not allow use of powered conveyances on sidewalks and bike paths." However, I would be inclined to think that the motorized scooter used by a handicapped person wouldn't fall under this category. I think there's a distinct difference between someone using a motorized scooter that travels at about 5 MPH because they are handicapped and a normal person using a Segway which has the potential of traveling at 13 MPH.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

There is a differnce between a Segway and a go-kart. A really big differnce. It's gaurenteed that the Segway will never go beyond 12.5 miles per hour while with a go-kart you can go as fast as you want. This fact alone will set it apart from almost all the other vehicle that you will find except for one other vehicle that I know of from Honda. This law is odd though. What stops anyone from calling their Segway a motorized bicycle and what about motorized bicycles? Personally I think now all the Segway owners should start terrorizing the streets of Boston. Watch what happens to the law.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I usually don't respond this tersely and ungraciously, but I lack the time today to give a high-quality answer and I just have to let it out:

Dude, you're totally off base.

Compared to a scooter, a Segway has the approximate footprint and agility of a walking person. Compared to a Segway, a scooter has the approximate footprint and agility of a motorcycle. A Segway will not go faster than about three times walking speed. A scooter's speed is not so limited; it will happily go as fast as its engine and the slope of its path will permit.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I hope this helps, the segway to the best knowledge of Segway LLC is not included in the law.

Link to Post

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Just about to post that. Eric is a great guy- he gave me my first segway demo about two years ago when they were not for sale. He got me hooked (and he was still in college).

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Mike,

You've voiced your anti-segway opinions many times here. But again, i have to disagree with your comments.

First of all, a large part of this bill was to get rid of the "noise" of the scooters. The segway is nearly silent.

If you really feel that the segway just another version of a motor scooter, i suggest you try to take your moped or go kart into the grocery store next time with you. Last time i heard segways were welcomed in many stores. That is the very difference that sets segways apart from the "other" scooters and mopeds. They are not a nuisance. I have NEVER heard of anyone complaining about a segway's presence the sidewalks.

The fact of the matter is, people who think like you are the ones who are absolutely killing the effectiveness of segways. You go around bad mouthing without any substance to your arguments.

Tom Schindler

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Mike- you do not know what you are talking about.

I use a segway to go 12+ miles 5 days a week. The segway is not a go-cart or "motor scooter". Why? Cause it does not move and opperate like one.

It moves and works like a human.

Why use a sidewalk key? When you can move sidewalk speed on the red key?

Do you own a segway? Do you use a segway?
You do no know what you are talking about- PERIOD

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I wonder if the bill was not directed at segways and the globe just inserted that phrase to sell papers...
Just a thought.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Moderators have already taken notice of the ridiculous and outrageous displays of 'gracious professionalism' that are taking place in this thread.

All of you who have posted questionable articles should be ashamed of yourselves. You are being ridiculous and out of hand.

It's also pretty sad that a thread about Segway laws should have to be closed. I'm requesting for its closure now. I hope that in the meantime, you edit your posts. I have never seen such a ridiculous and belligerent group post such materials over something of this matter, ESPECIALLY not on these forums.

No wonder ChiefDelphi is criticized for being nothing more than slanderous, inaccurate high-school material. No wonder we have awards like the WFA - for those kids that go looking for a mentor and come up with THIS.

Hang your heads in shame. This is terrible.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

My apologies ... questionable posts removed ...

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Alright guys- I know stu said stuff that was questionable but... Segway Gliders get very uhhh attached to their machine and when someone puts it down its like someone is picking on your kid. Its hard to explain I guess.

Do I think it was 100% appropriate- no

Do I understand why he did it- yes

I think this is going to be a thread that we all look back at next week and laugh at. Every "family" has their fights, you learn and become a better person from them.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I think not....

So, if you are handicapped and use a Segway you automatically use it at 5mph? (I think that is called stereotyping dude...)

I think not.. Seriously, if I were handicapped and then a Segway were given to me and it was a chance at mobility that I lost from being handicapped, I would speed down the sidewalks all day long certainly not going 5mph on an open stretch of sidewalk...
Do you go the same speed on a highway when there are a ton of cars than when there is a open stretch of road??? Well, I don't....
Same thing with a sidewalk.. It's really just another piece of commuting real estate.

(Then again.. maybe it's just cause I am a guy. Maybe there is something to that car insurance male/female rate difference after all..... NAH!!!)

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I would like to publicly appologize for my previous post. i was attacking an attack, and two wrongs don't make a right. instead of PMing Stu, i childishly displayed my complaints, and did nothing but fuel the tension in the thread. i guess the journalist crack got to me, but i should not have said what i did. i am not only ashamed at my words, but by the fact that others had to point out to me that it was wrong.

i apologize to Stu Bloom, to the posters of this thread, and to all of Chief Delphi

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Okay, I may catch a little flack for this, but I'm going to have to agree with Mike D. on this. In most places in the country, everything from skateboards and bikes, to more obvious things like cars and motorcycles are banned from the sidewalks. So why should a Segway be any different? I realize that this law would definately not be beneficial to the sales and marketing of the segway, but I think it is the right decision. While I'm sure most Segway owners would be responsible and could handle their segways responsibly on sidewalks and keep others out of harms way, there will always be those few who ruin it for the others. All it would take is for a few boneheaded owners to be blowing down a sidewalk at 12 miles per hour and hit somebody, run over a foot, hit someone walking into a door, and there would be lawsuits for it. These are the exact same reasons other motorized vehicles and objects are prohibited from the sidewalks. Segways should be no different. A Segway and person moving at 12 mph is moving more than fast enough to do some serious harm to whatever it hits. If the potential for harm is there, it's the governments job to protect the people, however they see fit.

I realize that this law strikes a lot of nerves of people on this board, since many of us have pulled for the Segway to be successful, and a few of us even have invested in one of them. But if you take a step back and look at this objectively, this is the right decision to make, since the Segway really isnt that different.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I have to say, people with that opinion just don't understand ... you don't 'get it'. The Segway is NOTHING like any other existing mode of transportation - you can't lump them in with skateboards, bikes, scooters, etc ... Spend a week with a Segway - you'll feel different. sorry about that grammar

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

i think that he's right in lumping all of them together. they are vehicles that are designed to be operated by people. i have yet to see anyone suggest that a segway is inherently dangerous in itself. off of segways, people make mistakes and miscalculations, and bump into each other trip etc. now if some nimrod on a crowded city sidewalk makes a miscalculation and bumps into somebody while going 12 miles an hour...

if a law says that segways shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalk, it isn't targeting segways, its aimed at the people who operate them.

personally, i think that the people who are trying to get segways allowed on bike paths, and in bike lanes. from there, they should join with the biking community, and attempt to encourage the construction of more bike lanes and paths in our city. but then again, that may be because i'm partial to another environmentally friendly, two-wheeled, self balancing vehicle...;)

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Hrm.... It would be quite Ridiculous to be making or hinting of the making of laws to prevent segways in an area where it can harm people.......


Here In NYC Bikers Are to ride in the street traveling in the same direction of traffic. All bikers must have reflectors, helmets and all the other safety stuff (not really enforced that much) Bikers may ride in bike lanes that have been painted on the street. Bikers may not ride on sidewalks ---- also not strictly enforced

The Mini Scooters - and Full length motor scooters belong in the streets where the cars are with a person no older then 18 with a valid permit / drivers license.... The types of vehicles are very noisy and very questionable about its safety ------ vehicles like these need to follow the rules of the road

Segways ---- Should be allowed to operate where ever it wants, simply because A) there are different keys designating different speeds or my term driving modes B) they have less of a chance of falling over and hurting someone if dismounted (thanks to all the fancy dancy gyros inside =) C) there hasn't been any complaints or segway accidents or its noise polution --- which is very very low If anything The only law to go against the segway is that a lights / reflectors to be installed for round the clock use so that drivers may see you in the ever so changing weather


Segway has been out for what 2 somewhat yrs now and I still haven't heard a renegade segway..... This is all a belated April Fools Day Hoax :)

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

It seems like the Segway people are saying I just don't "get it." I do, I really do. I know it's a very enjoyable mode of transportation. I have ridden one before., I've been out to dinner with Erin Rapacki, Tom Schindler, and Ben Piecuch who zipped around Boston the night of the Bean Town Blitz with their Segways. I think they're great. A mix of amazing technology and fun- it's a geeks dream.

I don't always pick the side of the argument I believe in. Just the side of the argument that will make for a good argument. However, I can legitimately see why lawmakers would have a problem with Segway use in cites.

Segway's would be excellent in the city, if everyone uses their side-walk key. You would be keeping with the natural flow of traffic. You wouldn't be moving so fast that if yourself and another person were turning a corner of a building that you might be able to avoid each other, or wost case have a collision that doesn't send someone to the hospital. In this scenario, the Segway truly is the Human Transporter.

Unfortunately, there's the fun side of the Segway- the fast key. Or if you're going a long distance in the country, the required key. If you're in open terrain you'll always be able to see whats in front of you and there is no pedestrian traffic. If you run into something, it will most likely be a car or an immobile object. Either way, no pedestrians will be harmed, but you might need to go to the hospital. It's a free country, you're allowed to kill yourself :rolleyes:

When lawmakers move to ban Segway use in a city they're trying to keep pedestrians safe. They're really not trying to stifle technology or stop progression in the world. It's the potential for the Segway to move at a high rate of speed that is the problem. I think if the fastest key you could get was the side-walk key we would see a totally different ball game. Many devices have the potential to operate at walking speeds, but if they have the potential of moving fast they're usually black-listed from city sidewalks (mopeds, motor scooters, ATVs, Go-Karts, motorcycles, bicycles).

I understand why people would believe the Segway should not be lumped into such devices as Go-Karts and motor scooters; it's a revolutionary technology. However, if the group name was "transportation devices that can operate at faster than walking speeds", the Segway would have to be included. The lawmakers see those types of devices as potentially unsafe for pedestrians. Like I said before, if the Segway's fastest key was the side-walk key, we would probably see a totally different ball game.

EDIT: Interesting article at AmericaWalks.org.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

to the contrary, i think it might be a good idea to keep segways out of an area were they can harm people.

unless segway stops selling the 'fast' keys, then it doesn't really matter that different keys designate different speeds. the keys only limit speeds if the driver uses them correctly. and i don't think that we have to worry about them falling over and hurting someone either. thats not the problem. neither is noise pollution. it has been stated again and again how quiet segways are. the problem is that segways are able to attain a (relativly) high speed, and are available to the public. while there hasn't been any segway accidents, eventually there will be. eventually, some nitwit who shouldn't be allowed out of his house is going to get his hands on a segway, and he's going to hurt someone.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

There is no such thing ...

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Sorry ... but you don't. The logic you use in your discussions proves it.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Well, we've heard some arguements as to why it would make sense for Segways to be prohibited from sidewalks, but is just seems to be "No you're wrong" and "Your logic is faulty" from the other side of the arguement. I'm curious as to why exactly you think Segways are so different from other vehicles and objects that are prohibited on the sidewalks. Do they not hurt as much when they hit you at cruising speed, or when they ride over your foot? I know this is bad for Segway sales, and if you have a Segway it really limits what you can do with it, but I dont think the sidewalk is the place for them. The street isnt either, but is there a better place for them in the best intrest of the whole public, and not just the few who have segways?

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Mike,


You make mention of people using the "sidewalk" key. Really? i never was instructed that i had a sidewalk key, i go the speed of traffic, even if i am on my "too fast for sidewalks" key. People who own high-end sports cars have the capability of going 150mph on the highway. Do they? Nope. In a group of pedestrians, you slow down to match their speed. If you get a chance to pass, you cruise on by. Courtesy is the key.

you make mention of devices in this list such as ATVs, Go-Karts, and Motorcycles - in this instance, i completely agree with you, they have no place on sidewalks. They are large, noisy, have poor performance in tight areas along with many other downfalls. Keep these devices off the sidewalks.

The mopeds and motor scooters have the potential of going 25+ mph, these devices belong on the roads. The performance of these vehicles is such that you CAN go 5 mph on them, which would fit in with traffic. In the event of a sudden stop, i can gurantee you the segway can stop faster than any of these devices, as well as being able to turn in place.

In fact, say i were a jogger, jogging along at 6-7 mph, a fairly normal jogging pace- by no means a sprint. A pedestrian steps out of a store a few feet in front me, not enough stopping time and i collide. So? just like the segway i woud bounce off the pedestrian with no harm done. In fact, if i were on the segway the collision probably would not have happened, as the stopping distances are much shorter.

Lets outlaw people from running on our sidewalks. In fact, anyone that walks faster than the old lady on the corner has to use the street also. I can't remember the last time i saw a sidewalk here in Worcester that was so clogged a segway wouldn't fit.. Same case with the many times I've been in Boston. Segways have their place. Don't think everyone arbitrarily zips around at 12mph just cause it is the max speed.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I've had numerous Segways intentionally run over my foot to prove this very point. You barely feel a thing. It feels no different than the average pedestrian stepping on your foot pressure-wise, and since it's a rolling wheel, it's over rather quickly. If you're wearing shoes, you will barely feel it at all.

As for collisions, I've had many Segway owners demonstrate this for me as well. Think for a moment how the seg operates- how it moves. You lean forward, it moves forward. You lean back, it moves back. Think about what happens in a collision. The seg is moving forward, so it's obviously leaning forward. If something gets in it's path (pedestrian, wall, whatever), the contact will push the Segway back, thus slowing it's speed considerably and rapidly, forcing the Segway to move backward and away. The response is so quick, the damage is really very minimal. Anyone who's been on a Segway for long enough to really play with it's start/stop ability and notice the immediate response knows how safe these things really are. Inertia really isn't too much of an issue, as the seg is always in control of it's motion at all times (when used properly)- it's a requirement to keep itself perfectly balanced. They can literally stop on a dime by shifting your weight back. By crashing into something, the same force is exerted on the Segway as would be if you are leaning back, and since the response is virtually instantaneous, not much at all happens.

With a bike or a scooter, balance is obtained by it's speed and rotational force. Motion keeps it balanced. It's very difficult to stop suddenly on a bike- it's hard to dissipate the kinetic energy rapidly. If a bike drives into someone, that person will invariably get injured somehow. There is no control of the motion other than brakes, which are based on friction of pads against the rims, and the response of the human to operate them. A bike would need a few feet to stop suddenly, and something (the pedestrian, or the rider) would have to absorb the energy used to balance before coming to a stop.

Compare that to the Segway, which has no brakes, nor any need for brakes, simply because of the way it's designed and operated. It balances under it's own powered motors and gyroscopes- not because of rotational energy. It is always in control of it's own motion, and stops when any force opposite it's motion is applied. There is no need to absorb kinetic energy, as there is no excess of it required to keep it moving or balanced. As such, any damage resulting from a direct impact would be very minimal, if anything at all.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

From the Segway FAQ :
The Sidewalk Key (maximum speed of 8 mph and a medium turning rate), allows riders to adapt well in pedestrian environments.


I don't think anyone would set legislation about the speed of walking or running. However, you can use legislation against the Segway.

You have a legitimate argument here, sort of. I wouldn't want a runner coming at me at full sprint either. I could end up seriusly injured if a jogger was running and maybe I was running and we collided. The trouble is, I don't think you could find a politician who would sponsor a bill that would block people from running down a public road.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

My analogy to the legislation about walking/running was showing the lack-of-knowledge the people making these laws have about how the segway operates. You're more likely to get injured by a jogger than you are a segway.

As for the sidewalk key, i only use the red key. In fact, i am more dangerous on the yellow or "sidewalk" key, since the turning rate is slower than the red key that i am used to.

Tom

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

It's become obvious to me that certain people have become too attached to their segways. This is a dangerous condition that must be mitigated immediately. You're in luck, however, as I will help you break this addiction.

Amanda Morrison, Tom Schindler, Matt K, and Stu Bloom, please PM me for details on my revolutionary program, which will make you less dependent on your Segway, FOR FREE! It involves shipping me your segway and a 12 step program.


:)

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I have been asked to post the facts...

The facts are that someone needs to prove to me why the Segway is not unsafe for pedestrians. Why it should not be classified differently from a Honda motor scooter and why it should be given EPAMD status (Electric Personal Assistive Mobility Device).

You might think why bother? "Mike doesn't get it and he's an ignorant fool."

It looks like there's a lot of politicians in Massachusetts who don't get it either. Or maybe, they are legislating the minority for the safety of the majority. Either way, you need to convince someone why you should be able to ride your Segway in Massachusetts and many other states in the United States.

To put out a bad analogy- regular citizens aren't allowed to own automatic weapons. It might be easier to take down a buffalo with an automatic, that's a benefit. However, for the safety of the majority of Americans, politicians have chosen to make them illegal.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Mike,

Check out Marc's post above...

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=33

It pretty clearly answers your question.

Tom

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

A very generous offer Joe, but I would not want to be identified as the one who indoctrinated you into our Segway 'cult' ;)

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

At least I am in good company. :D

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Thanks Matt ... I'm blushing :o

More ammunition on the way tomorrow ...

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I know it has been already said that segways don't hurt as much, but I can speak from experience. I have been hit by a segway going full speed, a bike going at about the same speed, and by an idiot sprinting to catch a bus (I've also been hit by a car, but that has nothing to do with the current conversation).

The sprinter was looking at his bus pulling awayand I knocked skulls, and he elbowed me in the ribs. I was knocked into the street, had the wind knocked out of me, and could've been run over if there was more traffic.

The biker and I came around a corner from opposite directions, and he hit his brakes as soon as he saw me. He skidded out of control, knocked me down, and ended up landing on top of me. I ended up with a skinned elbow and a gash on my leg from one of his sprockets.

The segway was being driven by a friend of my parents, who was showing off and didn't see me coming. I did get a significant shove, but that was it. I wasn't knocked over, wasn't at all hurt, and didn't even have a bruise from where his handle bars hit my arm. Afterwards, he intentionally ran over my foot to demonstrate how painless it is, and, as advertised, I barely felt it.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I’ll try to summarize what he said…
- When a Segway rolls over a person’s foot it doesn’t hurt that bad.
- The Segway differs from other two wheeled devices because balance does not rely on the rotational force of the wheel.
- The Segway is different from a normal impact because once impact is made the Segway will be pushed back and will decelerate rapidly.


Let’s create a scenario with two people Jane a pedestrian and John a Segway rider. Jane is a cute petite 120 pound blonde; John is a 167 pound stallion. John has the rugged i Series Segway which weighs 83 pounds.
John is driving his Segway around Boston’s north-end taking in the city. Jane is busily getting ready for work in her studio apartment. John realizes that if he doesn’t make it to the T in 3 minutes he won’t make it on the last commuter rail train of the night. Therefore, he’s whipping around the city at 12.5 MPH trying to get to the T station. Jane’s running a little late for work and bursts out the door of her apartment building and gets side swiped by John who was traveling at full throttle down the sidewalk. What happens in the collision?

I think there will be a major collision. Jane will be thrown to the ground and may need to visit the emergency room for a broken bone. John will probably be thrown from his Segway as well.

My reasoning is simple; it takes 18.6 feet for a Segway to stop when moving at 12.5 MPH [1], or an average deceleration of 4.2 ft/s. Therefore, there is absolutely no way that the 250 pound mass will cause Jane to experience a slight push, or anything that one would consider casual contact. There will be a violent collision.

[1] http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...way/Segway.htm

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I like how you included several newtonian physics "buzzwords" in your post, almost as though you would use actual physics to back up your argument.

Then kinda trailed off and didn't provide the relevant calculation.
Interesting tactic.


I'm blonde, but not cute, or petite. I don't weigh 120 lbs.
I worked around segways all summer (5 in the office). I've never been hurt in a segway related collision, despite being involved in several.
*shrug*

My name is John too... I don't think I'm a stallion though.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

unfortunatly, i don't think that college students are going to be the only ones to ever get rundown by segways...
but, a question for those of you who have been hit by segways: while they weren't able to topple you, do you think they could knock over a child? how about an elderly person?

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Haha, yeah, it was intended to be a physics problem. However, I was unsure if basic physics equations would work in this situation. Therefore, I was hoping the fast that the Segway does not stop on a dime, and that website proves it was enough. Calculating forces is not a specialty of mine but I'll give it a shot...

F=ma
a = V^2-V0^2/2x
a = 0^2-12.5^2/2(18.6)
a = 8.2 ft/s^2
F=ma = (250)(8.2) = 2050 lbf/ft

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Fogive me if this has been stated before in the previous *46 replies, but I have never seen a riding lawn mower with only 2 wheels....

Maybe this is a new market that Segway can get into?:)

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Perhaps, but a jogger could also knock over a child or elderly person in a collision.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

A jogger is most likely not going to be paying as much attention either- they are running their heart is beating and they impaired because they are fatigued...

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Good reference Mike ... did you read the entire paper? Notice in Table 2 that the EPAMD has the shortest stopping distance of any of the devices listed in the comparison.

We all know, especially with the availability of the Internet, that anyone can find any number of like-minded people to spout official sounding dribble to reinforce their position. With regard to the current discussion of Segway safety unfortunately there are many people who don't understand the machine. I would challenge you to find even one person who has spent any significant amount of time on a Segway who doesn't recognize the safety, usefulness, and relatively negligible risk, associated with its use.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

they could, but im pretty sure a jogger is abit more nimble than a segway. a human is a "holonomic". the segway is not.
so other than jumping over or dodging away, a jogger can make use of its "holonomicality?" and spin away while also dodging away to reduce the energy of impact. (if thats hard to understand, think, a hurricane doesnt do as much harm on one side of its path as on the other side)
that is a very irresponsible jogger. i run cross country and run the sidewalks everyday. i am not impaired of judgment just from fatigue.
and if you were to use irresponsible runners as an example, im sure there are few irresponsible segway drivers. if i change a few words from your argument, "a segway rider is most likely not going to be paying as much attention. their exhilaration gets their heart running and they are impaired because they are having so much fun..."

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Some how some way you botched your calculation. I don't know where you got 250 but I don't think that's right. First of all if you want to calculate force using ft/s^2 you have to use the slugs as mass. I checked and the heaviest segway is only 3 slugs and a 200 pound person is 6 slugs. So its more like 72 pounds of force.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Yes, I did read the paper. The purpose of the paper was to prove that the Segway should be legislated as a vehicle. If you take a look at table 2 all the other devices are legislated under vehicle laws and not the proposed EPMAD law. In the conclusion of the paper the author feels the Segway should be treated as an electric bicycle and therefore legislated as a vehicle.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

John weighs 167 pounds and the Segway HT i weighs 83. Their combined weight is 250 pounds.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Weight is a force not a mass which is what I assumed you did. You'd have to convert pounds into slugs then throw it back into the equation. The mass used to get pounds is a slug.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Your reasoning is missing an important point. The reference you provide does not involve a collision, and over two thirds of the listed distance is reaction time (braking does not begin until four frames after the signal is given, and is complete two frames later). A Segway in forward motion is leaning forward, and will be tilted upright -- or even backwards -- immediately upon running into an obstacle. That stops it rather quickly, usually more quickly than any rider can manage.

To add to the body of anecdotal information, the two Segway/pedestrian collisions I have witnessed were no more traumatic than a typical two-person collision, and I have never heard of someone being knocked to the ground after being hit by a Segway. The worst Segway incident I've seen was when someone fell off after intentionally running over an obstacle, and the results seemed similar to tripping over one's shoelaces. (I don't count the Bush video -- the thing was in "follow-me" mode.)

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

OK i did not want to chime in on this real world situation but i have decided to explain an incident i have had while traveling through Boston on a Segway. The night after Beantown Blitz in June, I went out with Erin Rapacki through Boston to get across town on segways. While traveling down one of the major streets in Boston an accident occurred involving me. I was tailing Erin around a corner, I would say about 25 feet behind her. She Turned the corner and i followed not expecting anything other then a couple odd looks and ohh's and ahh's. Well i was almost hit by a bicycle messenger. As i turned the corner at close to top speed (12.5 MPH), the bicycle messenger notices me and slams his breaks. He lays the bike down and slide under his bike. As soon as i turned the corner and had noticed him i was able to perform an "emergency stop" and stop at that point. The Segway is able to stop within its own footprint, even go backward in a fraction of a second from full speed. Like other Segway owners and users have said, the Segway is a device that is unlike others. If i had to choose to travel in a pack of segways or likewise but only pedestrians, i would choose the pack of segways. I trust a Segway more on the road/sidewalk then i do pedestrians. I hope some more of you will understand that a Segway is not a dangerous vehicle and truly is a revolutionary device.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

This discussion has gotten a little absurd. We are now debating at what force it should be legal to collide with another person. It's bad enough when it happens accidentally during natural pedestrian activities, such as walking or running.

It's heavily debatable as to whether the Segway truly stops in its own footprint or even quickly for that matter. Especially when a somewhat scientific test measured a stopping distance of 18 feet. Sure the test driver might not be a Segway user destined for the X-Games but he showed the stopping ability of the average person.

Therefore, we can be reasonably certain that Segway use will increase the risk of pedestrians becoming the participants of accidents. How are Segways being legislated as an EPAMD good for the general public?

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

You are the one who started talking about the forces. People are big babies about getting run into. 'Waaaa, I got a boo boo'

No test or answer is better than what an actual daily Segway user says and uses them for realworld purposes. If Tom Schindler or Dez say they can stop in a couple feet, then I sure will believe them, not some crazy test person who is doing it according to some calculation.

That is not true. That what you have been saying the whole time and haven't had much to back it up. Lets start banning electric wheelchairs from sidewalks and stores because they can fall into a crack in the sidewalk and break their necks. :rolleyes:

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

You're right about one thing ... this discussion HAS certainly moved toward the absurd, but as David said, you are the one who started talking about impact forces (and using incorrect calculations/units). I'm starting to think you are just having fun arguing for the sake of the argument...

How do you know that your "somewhat scientific test" was not biased. You said yourself that "The purpose of the paper was to prove that the Segway should be legislated as a vehicle."

"... WE can be reasonably certain ..." ?? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? YOU can be as certain as you like ... you still don't get it!!

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I don't want to sound rude, but there are quite a few Segway owners in these forums. Personally, I'd trust their judgment and experience as known everyday users of the device, as opposed to a single random unknown person carrying out scientific research in the name of debunking the value and safety of the Segway. I wouldn't call the stopping distance heavily debatable when we have a number of experienced users and owners here to testify based on personal, everyday use in a real pedestrian environment. And that's all aside from the first hand stories of collisions with Segways yielding little to no damage.

I don't disagree that the Segway can be potentially dangerous when not used properly. But so can a plastic fork, or a baseball bat, or a bike, or anything anyone has a malicious use for. The bulk of the design in the Segway has been around safety, both for the rider, and pedestrians. The footprint of a Segway is no wider than the shoulders of the average person. It has the advantage of subconscious activation, once the user becomes accustomed to riding it, so motions and actions are as fluid and responsive as the person walking. Knowing as much as I've learned about how Segways operate, and from the experiences I've had riding them around for extended periods of time, and hearing stories from owners, I honestly believe there is no more harm in riding a Segway on the sidewalk than there is a jogger running, or a kid carrying a baseball bat. Sure, there are potential malicious uses, but the same goes for virtually anything in this world. But given the design safety, and operational nature of the device, even an intentional head-on collision won't do a terrible amount of damage, certainly far less than a kid wielding a baseball bat.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

How about we just ban everyone from the sidewalks if we are that focused on what we are trying to accomplish whether its running for a bus / train / cab / jogging etc.... Protect ourselves from ourselves kind of thing

AS I said before in some states there is a bike lane for bike riders to utilize. This is very dangerous --- yeah u keep the people on the sidewalk safe but if a tractor trailer / bus is moving quickly along side you you could get knocked off that bike espicially if the tractor trailer is moving in its lane unsafely (swirving)..... If I could get knocked off my bike by a passing vehicle while riding in the street whether its the same flow or opposite flow of traffic why would I want to ride a segway in the street..... Segways are more then safe enough to be riden on a sidewalk. Kids should not being playing on the sidewalk anyway without parental supervision.

The Main point is that there is no safe place to do anything. Whether ure out jogging / excersing / biking / segway riding.... your main goal is to do everything safely and be aware of ure surroundings. Segways will not get banned from the sidewalks and sent to the streets, the streets are just as dangerous as the sidewalks even if ure operating carefully.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I might have been the first person who wanted to quantify the impact force. However, anyone who said getting hit by a Segway wasn't that bad talked about forces ambiguosly.

I welcome anyone who would like to to fix the calculations to do so. The problem is that the calculation will never be accepted because then someone will argue that I neglected how the Segway will try to reverse itself.

Either way, the force issue is a moot point. The most important point is that the Segway will increase sidewalk collisions.

I find it amusing that in a forum that deals with engineering you want to disregard tests and measured numbers and trust judgement calls. I'm not saying these guys are right or wrong. They just haven't quantified their results following any type of scientific method. The test may be biased because it does prove their hypothesis. However, if you watch the video I see no problems with his stops. I think he demonstartes the stops of the average Segway user.

Perhaps, I haven't made a good argument to a Segway loyalist. However, I have used reasonable judgement and presented facts and figures. Some people have made responses simalar to "you don't get it", "you're wrong", "your logic is faulty"; with absolutely nothing to back up their statements.

Haha, yeah, I understand why you wouldn't want to accept their research. Unfortunately, it's the only rearch that supports my argument. It also happens to be the only scientific research presented in this thread. The evidence that I presented appears to be following the scientific method: create a hypothesis, test hypothesis, draw a conclusion. Seems like decent research :cool:

I think something you have to realize is that the safety of pedestrians who are walking are of the most utmost concern of legislators. They don't care what kind of device you create, if it's unsafe for pedestrians it ends up in the road. The bicyclists are lucky to be in a state with bike lanes because if they didn't they'd be driving in the road with normal traffic.

Think of it this way... I probably would not be allowed to ride a unicycle down the sidewalk of a city that doesn't allow bicycles on the sidewalk. I would be forced to ride my unicycle in the road. Obviously, I wouldn't ride the unicycle in the road, injury would be certain. Therefore, I can't use my unicycle for transportation. The legislators would say too bad, we're keeping the pedestrians safe.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I am not a Segway user (although I must admit it looks like a lot of fun and if I had the extra bucks I'd probably buy one!). And I am not a master of the physics of motion and collision, nor do I claim to be. It seems to be logical and reasonable that, if a Segway rider has sufficient time to react, due to how a Segway responds (according to the Segway users who have participated in this thread), a collision can be avoided or at the very least minimized.

What happens in the scenario where a Segway rider rounds a corner and unexpectedly impacts a pedestrian? If the impact is what would stand a Segway up or tilt it backward, then since the impact has already taken place, wouldn't the potential injury to the pedestrian have already occurred?

I am not taking a side of the argument here. I am just asking the question for the sake of debate.

The reality is lawmakers will do what lawmakers do. They will make a law without truly understanding the law, the need for it or it's consequences. Segway users must make sure their lawmakers become informed. Visit your local and state lawmakers. Take your Segway and show them how safe it is. Better yet, show them how to use it!!!

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

is this why the majority of segway users are so violently opposed to moving off of the sidewalks? any experienced road cyclist will tell you that its the intersections that you have to worry about. the majority of motor vehicle and pedestrian involved collisions happen at intersections, crosswalks, and in front of driveways. in fact, that link that mikedubreuil provided ( http://www.humantransport.org/bicyc...gway/Segway.htm) made an interesting point, stating that "At intersections, motorists are often not looking for bicyclists (who are traveling at higher speeds than pedestrians) entering the crosswalk area, particularly when motorists are making a turn." people typically don't expect anything on sidewalks to be traveling faster than a walking human (3-4 mph). this may be the reason that some joggers and speedwalkers choose to exercise in the street, rather than on the sidewalk.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

BRAVO!

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Judging by the consequences of this thread being posted...
Segway users will pout, present an argument based on unscientific evidence and then become elitist and claim everyone else just doesn't get it.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

The main problem with the way you tried to "quantify the impact force" is that you implicitly assumed that the Segway would impart all its momentum in the collision. That would happen only if it was out of control and lost power at the moment it hit.
Okay. The first thing to realize is that the impact force is (approximately) proportional to the velocity. Not to the square of the velocity; kinetic energy is not the relevant quantity (unless you want to assume that people are equivalent to brick walls). We want to consider the momentum of the moving rider and Segway, mv. For the purposes of argument, I'll accept a mass of 200 pounds (yes, pounds are actually a valid measure of mass, and indeed the legal definition of a pound specifies a specific mass, not a specific force) and a velocity of 18 feet per second. Converting to metric is about 90 kg and 5.5 meters per second, for a momentum of slightly less than 500 kg*m/s.

Second, the force depends on the amount of time the Segway is in contact with the person. How does half a second sound? (Note that assuming a longer time decreases the applied force, so I'm being very pessimistic here.)

Finally, the Segway will almost certainly be braking itself during the collision, so a good portion of the total force will be transferred through its wheels to the ground rather than through its frame to the pedestrian. According to the video, it takes less than half a second to come to a full stop, even without running into something. If the Segway is also pushing the pedestrian during the entire time, a simplistic integration shows that more than three fourths of the momentum is dissipated through the wheels, so the momentum transferred to the person can be no more than about 125 kg*m/s. To do that in one half second requires less than 250 Newtons of force, or about 1100 pounds.

Does that sound like a lot? It's not. It's about what you'd get if you rolled out of bed. For comparison, it's only a little more than twice the amount of force the 167-pound rider's feet would absorb if he jumped off the Segway.
If you do neglect that fact, then your calculation is missing an important -- perhaps the most important -- term.
That's not a "point". It's a claim, for which I have seen no support. Have you ever ridden a Segway for more than a few minutes, Mike? A rider on a Segway is not some juggernaut having a limited ability to accomodate his surroundings. He's not like a bicycle rider who needs to go fast in order to remain stable. He is in many ways just another pedestrian, but with a little higher view and the benefit of increased speed when desired.
Um...I think mtaman02's comment was complaining that the bike lanes in those states are in the road next to motor traffic.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I'm not a highly experienced Segway rider, but I rode the TechnoKats raffle Segway around the pits at IRI. You can't have much worse a traffic situation on your average sidewalk (even in large cities) than what you have in pits at FIRST events (people using power tools, scouts, very limited space, etc.) Despite probably having only about an hour of experience on the Segway, I felt I was totally in control of the machine and posed no risk to people around me in the pits. Could I go 15+ MPH in the parking lot outside? Sure. You can also probably run about 15 MPH if you sprinted. As mentioned in previous posts, just because you have the potential to travel rapidly doesn't mean that you'll do it. Also, the Segway is far more maneuverable at low speeds than a bicycle, and far more visible than the average pedestrian.

In any case, I'm skeptical there are really enough Segways on the road to warrant a change in traffic laws.

</ramble>

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

OK ... this is it - I wanted to wait with this reply to an earlier post as I have been working on it for several days on and off (I do have a life outside of CD, albeit not too exciting) and it is not quite "ready" for publication ... but here it is ...

But first ... Mike, Judging by your recent post:it is REALLY starting to look to me like you are just trying to be a jerk.

... I've had enough ... I'm finished with this debate ...

************************************************** ********
First of all Mike, you are right about the bad analogy - how about all of the LEGAL firearms and other weapons that have killed and injured so many - of course that makes perfect sense when you realize that legislators' real priority is NOT the "safety of the majority" (not that I pretend to know what their priorities are ... but there sure are a ton of ridiculous laws on the books).
... And now I will start back at the top of your post ...

Proof? ... well what type of proof do you need? What would be adequate? Nearly a year ago there had been 6000 Segways sold (info from the September 26 "U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission and Segway LLC Voluntary Recall to Upgrade Software on Segway™ Human Transporters"), and although Segway LLC does not release sales numbers, I would say that now, nearly a year later, 10,000 would be a conservative estimate of the number of Segways currently in service. I have not heard of a single documented case of a pedestrian being injured by a Segway. If you have, I would appreciate you enlightening us. The FACT is that no one needs to prove anything TO YOU. I doubt any logical arguement would change your mind anyway, but as I said before, I think if you spent a week (or even just a day) using a Segway your perspective would be much different.

It's true ... YOU DON'T GET IT ... however I have never heard/seen anyone call you either ignorant, OR a fool. You just don't understand what the Segway is, or what it is all about. I guess I shouldn't hold that against you - some people "get it" and some dont. But I have never known of anyone who has spent any significant time on a Segway who didn't recognize the inherent safety of this incredible piece of machinery, and realize many useful applications for it. And again I will say, spend some time on one and you will understand.

Regarding the politicians, Massachusets is currently also considering legislation similar to what 41 OTHER STATES HAVE ENACTED (see http://www.segway.com/general/regulatory.html), which defines the classification of EPAMD, specifically for the Segway, with special status different from other motorized vehicles. There are a lot more places where you can legally use a Segway on the sidewalk, than places you can't.

************************************************** ********

As the Segway is a new and unique application of technology, is very difficult for most of us to adequately explain the differences between it and some other motorized transportation devices. I will paraphrase from a post by a fellow Segway owner on SegwayChat.com who does a great job with this explanation...

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Your post was pretty hostile. You also seem to think that things are rosy with the EPAMD legislation. I took a look at your home state of Indiana's legislation on Segway use and it appears operators can't weigh more than 170 pounds.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Gimme a break.. You haven't been quite the inniocent person yourself...:rolleyes:


It does not say anything about a maximum of 170 pounds. It just says this: (2) A maximum speed of less than twenty (20) miles per hour when operated on a paved level surface, when powered solely by the propulsion system referred to in subdivision (1), and when operated by an operator weighing one hundred seventy (170) pounds.The maximum in that paragraph refers to the speed and not the weight of the rider..

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

Why does it list a weight than? It seems like there is indeed some kind of mistake in the sentence. Or they are saying you have to weigh exactly 170 pounds :D Weight restrictions are not unprecedented, the state of Alabama also restricts operators to 170 pounds.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

No, it's not saying that.

What it is saying is that they're gonna measure the speed of that Segway with a guy on it weighing 170 pounds. You can weigh whatever you want when you personally drive a Segway...although sometimes it wouldn't be too healthy for the Segway itself.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

You're misreading the legislation. The weight given is not a restriction; it is a test parameter. Both the Alabama and Indiana laws are specifying the conditions under which the speed of the device is to be measured. The measured maximum speed, under those conditions, is one of the criteria for qualifying as an EPAMD.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

I think you're right, my apologies.

Re: segway license, turn signals, and no sidewalks?
 

It depends on the the law, but more than that it depends on the interpretation of the law by its enforcers. Many unicyclists have trouble with this: some have been told by a policeman to get of the sidewalk, and one block later have been told to get off the road. Part of it depends on speed- if you are on a coker, you will probably average about 12 mph, the top speed of the segway. Needless to say, a unicycle with a 36" wheel is probably a bit more visible than a segway. A coker is generally considered a road machine, as the gyroscopic stabilization begins to take effect at cruising speed. As you go down in wheel size or up in crank size, your speed is reduced. Your standard unicycle, the 20" or 24", are generally used on sidewalks; their smaller wheel size allows for maneuverability and street tricks, if you feel so inclined. 29ers are somewhat ambiguous, depending on the crank length.

However, if riding on the sidewalk is declared off limits by law, most unicyclists will take to the road, or go down to city hall and request separation of bicycle and unicycle definitions. Most of the time though, as a unicyclist you have just as much right to the sidewalk as the street- it is a gray area, and common sense is what dictates your choice of sidewalk or street. Riding on a street isn't always safe, but neither is riding on the sidewalk.

The best solution to all the segway problems? If you're considering getting a segway, save yourself a few thousand dollars and buy a unicycle instead.