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Best frame building material
I was curious on what is the best material for building a frame for a robot. Last year, we used 1" aluminum tubing and it did well but it was difficult to weld and it was not as strong. I see other teams using extrusion tubing and I was also curious on why extrusion so good. Thanks for your help!
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There are many different types and kinds also sizes of extrusion that your able to get. One reason we used extrusion last year was the ease of it compared to making all the frame with the 1" aluminum like we did in 2003. It cut back on time, money and human resources because all we had to do is call the nearest dealer and they would send us a piece for our frame instead of cutting and welding the pieces together. The nuts and bolts that the extrusion come with are very strong and hold up through many competitions if used correctly. here's a website that i have as a favorite from last year, even though we never ended up using them we had a dealer about a half hour away that was very generous to us. I hope all of this helps you and can't wait to see what your team builds this season.
Pit Bull P.S. If visiting the website go towards the bottom for the FIRST special... |
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I agree with most of what Pit Bull said about extrusion. It is very easy to work with and is very strong. However, it is very heavy. When teams have only 130 pounds to work with every pound counts.
For about three seasons or so Cyber Blue used extrusion, but this previous year we went with aluminum tubing. It worked out very well for us and in the future I'm sure we'll do the same. |
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Yeah extruded alumnium is pretty easy to work with as long as you don't need anything welded. We used 30mm X 30mm Extruded aluminium for all of our robots. There's also 20mm x 20mm Profile that we also used in the previous two years for various parts of our robot to reduce weight. Both of them are very durable, We never hand any problems with it breaking or bending.
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Another problem with aluminum extrusion is that the connecting pieces can get kinda pricey. This can be a problem for teams with limited funds, but you can always make your own connectors, as most companies give dimensions in their catalogs. Just something to think about.
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yeah, we (Team 435) have used extruded aluminum for about 4 years now. It is very useful, because it is durable, and you can easily move pieces around. If you make an incorrect measurement, you can simply loosen the pieces, and slide them to the desired location. For the last three years, we used BOSCH, and for the 02, and 03 seasons, we used a combination of 30mm x 30mm, and 20mm x 20mm. Last year, we switched to their 1" system, because that is what all the rules and parts are in. Switching to 1" was a welcomed change.
-Sam |
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We have used angle aluminum for the frame for the last 2 years and have had very few issues. it is light and somewhat durable. However we did break a few pieces but that was from defending the king of the hill in the stack attack game, where at times it got rough. It is easy to work with, its light, but isn't as strong as extruded or square.
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Aluminum Plate and standoffs!
...thats if you have access to machines to cut the parts you would need. KISS!!!! |
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Team 25 has been playing around with different frame materials for the last few years and we've ranged from 1/4 in aluminum sheet shaped and cut out through the tubinig and extrusion, aircraft foam ( remember 1997?) and plywood. The plate works pretty good but you need to assemble the layers with spacers and lots of screws. In essence we make a set of modular drive trains that are bridged by a simple cross frame and lots of screws. Take out 20 screws and a few electrical leads and the whole side of a robot is replaced in ten minutes. We hold drills with the kids in building the gearboxes from piles of parts much the way the army trains soldiers to assemble their rifles. Extrusion is what we are looking at for this season, just to try it out. Our friends at 1089 used it last year and it worked well despite the exorbitant cost for the connectors. My BMS engineers have been talking about it and they seem to have an idea in their heads - January is coming soon!! BTW- we have found that bolting parts together rather than welding gives the robot a bit of flexibility when it takes a hit. You can always replace a lost bolt but have you ever tried to fix a weld in aluminum in the pits? Ouch. WC :cool: |
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for teams looking to easy construction you can also use steel tubing...now before you react to say that i am crazy think about this.
a piece of carbon tube steel (1/8 wall) .5" x .5" x 36" weights 1.5 lbs a piece of 6061 alum tube (1/8 wall) 1" x1 " x 36 " weights 1.4 lbs the weight difference between alum and steel is not very much when the steel is half the size for teams who want an easy material to work with without having to buy all the attachment components with extrusion, think steel. much easier to weld, much less expensive, locally available everywhere, easy to machine you might want to consider this when looking at materials for the upcoming season |
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This question isn't really as straightforward as it sounds. There are really three parameters that determine the suitability of a framing material:
Our team has used both Al square stock and extrusion so I can only speek for these two options. Square stock Square stock is relatively light and more than rigid enough for a first bot. If you are one of those supposed teams that designs a robot entirely and then assembles it in the last week of the build and it all works properly the first time then this might be a great choice. For the rest of us who are constantly changing things squarestock can become a problem. It very hard to move things that are welded on. If you are looking for strength then this might be the best option. If you are looking for flexibility then look somewere else. Extrusion If money is not an issue then this stuff is great. It is probably one of the best thigns our team has ever done. If you need to move something just loosen a bolt. Its very convenient. If flexibility is your goal then this would be the way to go. A word of warning: extrusion has very little torsional rigidity. It can take other loads fine. |
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If I recall right, our robot used the 2x4s in the kit. Heavy, but solid as a brick.
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My team used extruded aluminum the first 2 years, but it was way to heavy which made us look for an easier base material. The past 2 years we have used a producted made by cooper/b-line. It is designed like U channel or back to back U channel but stronger. It is very easy to use, and it has brackets that help with the initial frabrication before welding. It is also very light and strong. Here's the website, it describes it better than I can: http://www.b-line.com/. I doubt that we will ever go back to extruded for the base. As for now, we'll keep that for telescoping arms.
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Our team uses the 2 x 4 square tube from the kit. We cut it in half and end up with 1 x 4 "C" channel. There is enough to make all 4 sides. We have bolted and welded it together. It is light,strong, and comes in the kit. Hey, Race what ya got.
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Our team (93) has gone through many of the design iterations that other teams have gone through. Wood and PVC tubing to aluminum angle to aluminum tube to unistrut (extruded profile).
We've chosen to stay with the unistrut for our base/drive frame because it really can take a hit and maintain it's shape. And judging from the evolution of the FIRST game, high-impact is going to be here to stay! This past year we experimented with fiberglass reinforced plastic or FRP. One of our structural engineers clued us in to it's incredible strength to weight ratio and we used it on many of the upper structural components on our 2004 robot. The light weight kept our CG much lower than if we had used unitrut or even aluminum tubing up that high. For connections we machined unistrut down to a size that allowed us to slip it in the end of the FRP with just a snug interference fit and used unistrut fasteners to tie it all together. On a side note we also made extensive use of nylon bolts and nuts and, much to my surprise, they held up quite well. I can't recall a single one failing in competition. You'd be surprised how much weight you can put into fasteners on a FIRST robot and switchig to nylon really helped us out. One benefit to the FRP (and this carries over to aluminum tube as well) is the ability to route electrical and pneumatics through the frame members to keep them out of harms way and give your robot a neat, clean appearance. Make sure your design is sound, if you have to replace a structural component that has elec/pneu running through it, you want to be able to do it quick! Another benefit of the FRP is that when it takes a hit it flexes and returns to it's original shape. Aluminum, on the other hand, won't return if bent too far. The FRP held up VERY well for us and we only had one frame member (not critical) crack on us. It didn't break completely but it must have taken a good hit from the corner of another robot. And if you remember our robot from 2004 (the big green and blue laundry basket) we took a lot of hits from teams trying to move us out from under the ball drop. If you're looking for a different material to use on your robot, consider FRP. It's pretty sweet stuff! Sean |
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I gotta agree with greg on this one... we have used NOT STEEL but aluminum tube... as long as its welded right... you are good to go... most of the years out bots has been a pushing bot... probably at the end of the season we will see one or two bends but nothing really bad. Extrusion are good too... we have used it during 2002 season and it worked great... :) |
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High quality plywood is a great material to seriously consider, especially if metal fabrication is a difficulty for you. One of the great things about plywood is that it doesn't dent-- give it a hard jar and it will spring back every time. Often the plywood comes out of the season in better condition than the 1/8" wall aluminum box beams. I must admit though, for "shiny factor" our team is considering moving into a different material for next season.
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Buzz 5 (2000) used welded angle....I wasn't on the team and don't know a whole lot about Buzz 5, so I can't comment on it.
Buzz 6 (2001) was extruded aluminum. It was good, but heavy. The way it was built, it was another one of those flexible robots, you can pick up a wheel and have the other 3 on the ground. Great for the ramp. Buzz 7 (2002) and 8 (2003) used .25" plates for side "columns", waterjetted for lightening. There was one of these on each side of the robot, and each was connected by extrusion. Each "column" had a plate, wheels/chain, and another plate, all attached rigidly. This was nice beacues the wheels were always in line, but the robot could flex. This allows for a great deal of flexibility. Like Buzz 6, you can actually pick up a wheel on Buzz 8 and the other three will still be on the ground. It worked great with the ramp, all 4 wheels were almost always on the ground. Buzz 9 (2004) was an improvement on this design. We actually used .024 (?) sheet aluminum and High Density Polycarb (same as in our gearbox). The polycarb were the outer walls, replacing a sheet of aluminum. The inner sheet of aluminum was replaced with the sheet aluminum with flanges all around. Motor mounts were all sheet aluminum, too. Our motor pan that held all 4 motors only weighed I think a pound or so. Extrusion was still used to connect each side column, but next year I think they are using thinwall tube, which will cut down on weight even more. Buzz9's drivetrain, with the motors, wheels, chain, and multi speed gearboxes weighed in at only about 30 something lbs. (no battery or electronics yet, though) |
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I'll toss in a vote for plywood, not as the best all around material, but certainly as the least recognized.
Aside from being cheap, easy to manufacture, extremely forgiving yet rigid and easy to replace, it can be very aesthetically pleasing. A concern though is that a Wooden frame can 'get in the way', since it is going to probably be bulkier and in larger pieces then anything else. You just have to get out of the mentality of using the frame as a place to bolt things and think of it more as a subsystem all it's self that has to be integrated with the others. Once you do you have something that looks more like a car (in the sense that it's a single machine and not a collection of machines) and less like a Frankenstein monster (for lack of a better term). Yes, I can already hear the 'form follows function' crowd, but hey... I like good Nordic plywood. Theres just something about a bot with a real form instead of these extruded boxes with lexan panels. A properly done wooden frame has elegance. -Andy A. |
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We have always used angle aluminum. We have used anything between 1.25" to 1.5".
It tends to hold up pretty well. We occasionally get a few dents/bends. Nothing that cannot be easily fixed. Our 2003 machine (rectangle) was probably our strongest. Even 25 couldn't dent us. We dented them.... :D The only thing that could have dented our 2003 machine was the shippers.... (Long story) It was at the Rutgers Regional and on pratice day our bot ended up arriving halfway into the day. Then we open up our crate and notice everything was messed up. Controls broken, batteries all over, tools everywhere, and pieces of the robot inside. Practice day was gone... Eventually we got everything working for friday. The must have dropped it or flipped it some how. :mad: |
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For a few years, 177 used 80x20 aluminum as a frame material. Our engineers refered to it as an adult's erector set. The pieces fit together easily and quickly without any welding, and it is very easy to change the fram if you decide that you want to mount something in a different place. Since you can assemble a base fairly quickly it gives your drivers more time to practice.
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Team 368 sat out last year but is back for 2005.
Anyway we have had great success using Bosch 30 x 30. As mentioned by others it is extremely easy to work with and allows you to construct all kinds of stuff without welding (we don't have any welders on our team). Its also very strong. Driving full speed into the goals of 2002 and the countless collisions in 2003 only mars the surface of the extrusion. The only problem with this stuff is that it isn't as light as you would think it is. We always end up milling corners off of the extrusion to make weight. This year I noticed that Bosch now has 1" extrusions. Has anyone tried this stuff? If so, how well does it hold up? Is it almost as strong as the 30 x 30? Is the weight savings worth the loss in strength? Does it flex a lot more? We always have a limited budget so if we go with 1", we won't be able to afford to go back with the 30 x 30. Any thoughts? |
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All of our robots we have ever made have used 1/2 inch steel box section. Its cheap, light, easy to weld and strong. Our robot stood up to me jumping up and down on it (and i am around 15 stone ) so its pretty strong. We even made a small "featherweight" for robot wars thing here once out of it. Its just really good :)
[rant] One of the factors you didn't mention was price, which is a definate problem for us, we have to pay for entry and get there from uk, costing more in flights than any of the US teams (not sure about the brazilians)... In america sponsorship is much more easy it would seem :\ its like getting blood from a rock here lol [/rant] |
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this is exactly what i was talking about....for those teams which are stuck on extrustion you will save atleast have the cost, and the weight, |
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80/20 is the best material hands down. It is so light and easy to work with that you can have a working frame in as little as three hours if not less.
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FRP = fiber-reinforced polymer...essentially it is aluminum that has fiberglass or some other composite in the material which gives it the characteristics of both metal and fiber....I'm not sure but this seems like it could get expensive
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We used plywood for the bottom of the inside of our chassis for the past two years. Our first year's robot is constructed completely out of plywood. Plywood is good for two reasons: it absorbs shock well w/o denting and is lightweight -- lighter than lexan or aluminum of the same thickness. Plywood is also a common and inexpensive material, compared to lexan and aluminum extrusion. Plywood provides a good mounting surface too. As for the "shiny factor", plywood is easy to paint and decorate on a low budget :) Have any artists on your team? You can make this stuff look good. We have used a variety of aluminum frame materials. This year's robot used the hollow aluminum beams that came in the kit. We drilled holes (but not to many to make it too weak) to take weight out of the frame. These worked very well. No dents or anything. |
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When you add in all the connectors, it gets very heavy. We have used 10/10 since 2003. It was nice since we could just slide stuff around to get it out of the way to access the innards of the robot, or realize that we made a design error and slide a few bolts to correct it. In 2003 we used all the connectors, which added up to be a pretty hefty penny. We didn;t have an issue with weight, but then again, our robot only weighed 90 lbs after we ripped our entirely ineffective stacker off it :D In 2004, we had a lot of 10/10 left over, and had access to welding equipment, so we welded the 10/10. The frame was extremely light, and still retained most of the modularity you get with 80/20. Some of the problems with extrusion include the fasteners slipping. This was particularly evident on both robots in that the wheels would continually slip from their intended mounting points. It's easily fixed, but a pain in the $@#$@#$@#. You really have to be sure to check all the time that your connectors are securely fastened. By the time we got to Cal Games in 03', the robot was literally coming apart because everything was so loose. Before 2003 we had used 1.5" aluminum angle, and in 2002, we used 1.5" steel angle, which left us with a frame that was probably in excess of 40-50 lbs (Way too much strength, even for a game that was nonstop action) Cory |
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We have used big aluminum plates separated by spacers since 2001. If you carefully place the plates and don't get carried away with making them too big, this is definitely a lightweight approach. If you are less careful about where you place plates, or if you make them huge for no good reason, it gets heavier.
One nice thing about this approach is that its easy to make multiple parts at once on a mill - once you decide where your holes are, you can make enough for one or two robots in one setup. So it can be a time- and money-saver if you are doing your own milling. Another nice thing is that the plates serve as great mounting surfaces for things like the drive system - you don't need any extra brackets so this contributes to the weight savings. It is a natural for custom geartrains and multi-motor drives. Its easy to mill your team number into the side of the bot too! :)) We have used a number of methods to extend structure between the plates: angle aluminum, flanged steel tubing, or other plate structures. My favorite is chrome-moly steel tubing (0.035" wall for "normal" locations, 0.058" wall for those exposed bumpers) with little three bolt flanges welded on the ends. Strong stuff and not too heavy, easy to mount a controller board with just a few tie wraps. Ken |
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we used (correct me if i'm wrong) 80/20 1" steel box tubing this year to build our frame. for those of you that were in the practice area behind the pits at SLR, you know just how strong the frame was. our robot ran full speed into a solid concrete post during an autonomous mode practice run and came out unscathed, we did more damage to the post!
and i must admit, making modifications during the build season was a snap, we just used either a hand saw or a plasma cutter to hack off the parts that we didn't need :) |
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It can take some big hits as long as you make sure you've got everything braced up well. At first in 2003 we had some doubts as to whether 1"x1" would be strong enough, but it turned out it's plenty strong, and much lighter than 1"x2", which is serious overkill. Cory |
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Cory |
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There are a number of sources of reinforced nylon connectors that insert into the ends of the tubing and lock it together. :cool:[/quote]
What are some of the sources? Which ones have you found to be the strongest? |
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1251 (my team) used extruded aluminum becuase it is stronger then that alumnium tubing your team used, however is it much heavier. so a good word of advice if you want to be light don't use extruded use the alumnium tubing. :cool: Extruded is good if your goin for robustness. The decision all depends on your design. Hope that helped. Drew, 1251 THE TECH TIGERS TECHNOLOGY FOR THE 21st CENTURY |
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This is not frame related in the aspect you are asking about. Team 93, in addition to using the fiber glass (FRP), we also used a large 1/4 in. plate for mounting things, instead of using more pieces of 80/20. We used it to mount gear boxes, our battery, our electronics box, our programming, air compressor, etc. To make this plate strong we had one of our engineers brothers laser cut, then bend out 'ribs', if you will, to make sure it would not flex in any critical part. This part helped the robot meet the weight requirement and still stay robust. I'm sure myself or Sean Schuff could conjure up some pictures of this plate so you can understand what I'm rambling about. |
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This year we plan to use the engineering teacher's head, it has got to be the hardest material known to man.
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Like Cyberblue, we used extrusion in the past (except for the "pre-me" robots - Rowdy 1 [2000] and Rowdy 2 [2001]). This summer, though, we replaced the frame with a welded box (1 in by 1 in or so) and it worked perfectly. It was 2 lbs lighter and we had weight to put on a pump (essential to the arm). Even though we didn't do great at IRI (because our arm broke in two places during the practice match - took 2 hours to fix, and the whole energy left in a battery issue), the frame was definitely a plus, and welded frames are what separate the men from the boys. :yikes:
An example: Teams 66 and 279, the awesome teams we allied with at nats. Though 279 did use some extrusion in their arm, both 66 and 279 had welded frames (as far as I could see). They had very few limitations, except when the opposing robot would knock it over by entangling with the arm. There are many more examples of this. Good one: WildStang this year, Beatty 71, and Las Guerrillas (469). |
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Welding = Bad. I would rather take apart extrusion based frames and redo all the screws and fasteners than re-weld a part many times. Anything that needs special tools and/or skills to maintain especially at a FIRST competition should be kept to a minimum, and welding is one of those special skills. |
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i don;t know about you all but i bring my mig welder to all the regionals i go to :D ...infact i do
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A good frame material I've heard of is carbon fiber board. You know.. the stuff motherboards are made out of. I'm guessing that if you make a basic chassis out of steel angle irons, and bolt on sheets of carbon fiber, it'll take a lot more damage than if you have polycarb side panels.
A related question: I've seen how they make some airplanes, they get a big mold and use a special machine to lay carbon fiber all over it, making a shell. I've also heard they use this method for race cars. Of course I doubt many FIRST teams have access to NASCAR shops, but does anyone know how carbon fiber laying works? It would be cool to see a molded carbon fiber frame some day. |
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Team 598 used a carbon fiber shell with Kevlar for support. That is really smart because both materials are very strong and very light. We use 60601 T6 aluminum but thats only becuase we do a lot of welding onto the frame and its the best application we have found. Just the right strenght and its light enough.
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As RBrandy pointed out, we used the square profile tubing for our robot and modified unistrut to provide connection points. There are certainly other ways to connect FRP components. We're looking at corner/T plates for this coming season. In a few instances we used nylon bolts and nuts to hold non-critical components together. They fared VERY well and are extremely light. We all know how quickly hardware can add weight to our robots! As for availability, we purchased our FRP through Ryerson, a national distributor. McMaster Carr also carries FRP and actually has a wide assortment of shapes including sheets, u-channels, angles, solid and hollow rods, and square tubing. Prices are reasonable with square tubing going for about $3.50/foot. Check it out at McMaster-Carr. It is drillable, machinable, paintable, and extremely easy to work with! A picture of our application of FRP can be seen here. Sorry for the delay in responding to all the inquiries and good luck! Sean |
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(In response to welding)
The problem with NOT welding is weight. What I would suggest a team do (if it has some money) is to weld spare parts that are likely to get broken. For example, an arm is easy to break, and so is the frame. Weld spares of those. Additionally do NOT weld the entire robot. Weld PARTS. Weld a bottom frame and separately weld the top frame, and bolt those together. 4-8 bolts = better than 40 - 80 bolts. |
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Word up for the Baltic Birch ply wood. Our team (195) has been using 9 ply for the last 4 years and its worked pretty well for us. What we usually do is build the box and paint it and then screw plates of 1/8 inch lexan around the outside as protection against dents, alot of times we will also reinforce the front and back with some 1/8 inch angle aluminum because in some extreme cases the frame has cracked on us. The aluminum angles seems to aliviate this. Our last bit of "armor" is 4 upright pieces of 3/16 inchangle aluminum at the corners to guard against spiliting. This has proven to be very structurally sound and also presents a good base for mounting things; blind nuts for important things, machine screws threaded into wood for relays, speed controls, etc.
P.S. Shameless plug for Gorilla Glue. :D Works awesome on our frame. |
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Our team used extruded 8020. It's really light and easy to work with
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I will agree with the easy to use, it is an industrial erector set :p . BUT as for light weight... 80-20 is heavy stuff. That is were the the compromise comes in for a lot of teams, go with it and its easiness and sacrifice on the scales or build other lighter more challenging implements. edit/ I think I should add that I do realize this is a year old thread, but still relavent. :) |
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I wise engineer once told me two things
1. There is no Best material, there are Right Materials. 2. Use the right application for whatever your material is. Ok so time for what i think of Chassis materials, from the extensive research i've done at competition I have found that combinations are the best way to go, making a frame all out of one material is inefficent. Also Extruded Aluminum is a proven FIRST chassis material. |
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Our entire frame was built out of extruded, given it was was only 1/16th" wall 1x1, it only weighed about 14lbs! Thats not very much for how much frame we had! Go here and click on 2005 Build to see some naked pics of the bot! :rolleyes: |
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In the past few years, I believe that my team has gone over kill on frames. We used 2x4 extruded in an H shape, 80x20, and the kit frame this year. All of thoes were overkill and never took a single dent. So this summer we are going to try a few frames. What experience do you guys have with the strengh of 1.5" angle alluminium?
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past two years. Last year it was fine because "violent" robot interaction occured up on the platform and there was no room to build any speed. This year we got the front of our robot bashed in during the quarter finals. I doubt we will be using 1/5" aluminum angle in this way again. |
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[quote=cdr1122334455]I wise engineer once told me two things
1. There is no Best material, there are Right Materials. 2. Use the right application for whatever your material is. QUOTE] Very good - and true. Each application is unique. 862 has used plate aluminum, 80/20, welded aluminum tube, and "L" channel in various years. "L" channel (of various sizes) has worked the best for OUR team on the frame. But that's because we don't weld (for many reasons, even though we have MIG, TIG, and Arc welding equipment), we have a tendency to over tighten without spacer blocks (crushing box channel), and we don't use/have CNC Mills or Waterjet cutting (otherwise plate would be nice). For us, material selection is based mostly on fabrication technique. Look around, see what other teams with similar resources use, and try it out over the summer. |
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