To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Simple question, not suggesting we should do one way or the other.

Do you want chit chat forum in Chief Delphi Forum or not?

Pros and cons, plus and minus for each side of the debate are welcomed.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I'm pro-chit-chat. Even if you're anti-chit-chat, consider this: we've gotta get all of our insanity, debate, and type-your-user-name-with-your-ear-wrapped-in-an-old-sock threads out somewhere. Better there than somewhere where folks expect serious, technical conversation, eh?

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

OK.

I am totally lost here. What is going on in CD.com lately? What is with all the new objections and follow the rules more stricter type thing going on in here? Did I miss something huge.

IMHO people are taking the few threads that I have started - as well as threads that other people have also - wwwaaayyy too seriously - and this is BS.

The season has not started. There are some technical things floating around - but really most people right now are on CD.com just to kill some time and have a little fun.

ALL of you need to just take a chill pill and relax.

Chit-chat. Honestly Ken - what type of question is that? If some people don't like it - than where will we have most of our fun at? At the General Discussion - or how about the Programming section.

People have claimed CD.com has gone down - but step back and really look at the mirror...

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Please notice "Simple question, not suggesting we should do one way or the other." I want to hear opinions. Everyone's opinions.

Do not rush to defend yourself when you haven't been accused of anything.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

To tell you the truth... Chiefdelphi is the same as it was when i first joined... its a great resource for FIRSTers... and yes I have been seeing a few threads in general forum which should have been in chit-chat (no offense to anyone... i have made that mistake 2 days ago)... there is a part in cd where we are being professional and a part where we can have fun (chit-chat). i think that is why the chit-chat part was created. Most of the FIRSTers (engineers, mentors) when they come on cd they look for certain kind of threads which will help them. in another hand there are us (including me) who looks for fun stuff other than just technical stuff. we should be glad that we even have this forum. If brandon didnt care at all, i think i would be bored at all time now (since i spend atleast an hour on cd each day). all brandon expects from us is, we follow the rules... and maybe there are times we just dont realize that we are posting something on certain forum (like general forum) which is not suppose to be there which i understand. i have made that mistake several times. lets just all thank brandon and other moderators who keep this forum going for us... :)

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Definitely pro-chitchat. As others have said, and I agree, it is a place for FIRSTers to just lay back and have fun. It's also another way to get to know other FIRSTers when you really can't in real life, or on a daily basis. See their personality, get to know what their opinions about certain topics are.
Honestly, if there are threads that should not be in Chit-Chat (aka, inappropriate) there are ways to deal with it. Simply by ignoring the threads, or just adjust your portal settings. It's as easy as that. It seems to me that CD has become way serious and opinionated lately. I'm getting worried :ahh:
So yeah, PRO CHIT CHAT!

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

My idea:
Chit-chat is a way to talk about random stuff and relieve yourself of stress, and to have some fun. It's a way to talk about things not relating to robotics with people involved in robotics.
If you dislike the chit-chat forum, is that not what brandon worked hard to customize your portal for? So you may chose to ignore those crazy people in the chit-chat forum!!!

anyway, just my point of view, i like to talk about random stuff :)

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Bigtime pro Chit Chat.
Without it there'd be no Fantasy FIRST! :D

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I've noticed this too. Perhaps we should get the CD forum's water supply tested? :p

Exactly! There are some usefull and interesting threads in Chit-Chat that don't have a real home elsewhere. This time of year the forums are slow in the technical areas as Matt said. I, for one, also enjoy the games in there. I will also admit, even though I have many posts in it, that the "1 to 1000" thread isn't the greatest but why do I keep playing it? Because I have learned many of the different team names from playing it, and also how many teams don't exist anymore. If Chit-Chat disappeared I guess Eddie would have to do all technical questions on Jeopardy from now on so he could run it from the technical section.

I vote to keep Chit-Chat. :)

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I think there are some light in that observation. That is one reason I want to bring this thread up. I've predicted with the group we have this year most are going to be pro-chit chat. What I am interested in is anyone who might say "um... I am not so sure.", and understand why they feel that way.

I've observed that a lot of members who are not satisfy with the currect CD forum are the veteran members who have been around for a long time. Most of us grew up in the earlier years of CD forum, and the rapid changes in this forum is causing us to react strangly, whether it be new personalities to the forum, or a shift of attitude.

Everyone have a certain attachment to their past experiences, especially past experiences that meant a lot to them. Rejecting changes is a sign that shows says "I like how it is back then." You certainly hear that phrase a lot, among the older CD members. But that feeling isn't shared by the newer members who post a lot more now a days, that's why we see all these sides clashing with each other about what they want.

We are supposed to learn to be more understand as we grow up. If the older members can learn to understand the need to take it easy some times, can the newer members learn to understand the need to take it seriously some times?


A bigger problem that needs to be addressed sometimes is an observation I keep hearing now a days: "Chief Delphi Forum isn't a useful tool anymore." I hear that saying through out the FIRST realm, from old posters who used to post a lot, to high school teachers who told me "I don't have time to dig through all the noise anymore".

The CD poster community is a very small part of the entire FIRST community, but surprisingly a large amount of the whole community rely on it for information to help their own team. If we can't figure out what's causing all these frustrations within the forum, this place will no longer be a useful place to the community as a whole.


Is chit chat the cause of the frustration we are seeing lately? Is it from people's lack of respects for rules? Are the few of us really too up tight and need to stop whinning and go away? That's something I really want to find out before the Season approach.

Sincerely,
Ken Leung

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Looks like I'm the lone vote against - so let me explain. The dynamics of trying our best to monitor and maintain sanity on this website is an awful lot of work. Only due to the hard work by Brandon and the moderators do we even have half a chance of doing this. The Chit Chat forum has by far the most hits and posts of all of the forums and it brings us the MOST headaches. Maybe it's just the nature of Chit Chat - a place for a wide variety of stuff to talk about. Sometimes the silly can be taken wrong, it's easy to let our guard down and the next thing you know - wham, bad taste, questionable posts - then, explosion and the things out of control. Our moderators do an awesome job of monitoring this section, but even so, this is a difficult forum to justify. You see, it only takes one bad post to cause me (lead from Delphi on this team) to have headaches and potentially phone calls from the higher ups at Delphi. I explain that we are continuously monitoring the website - but - if it gets out of control, we won't only lose the Chit Chat forum - we potentially could lose the entire chiefdelphi website. To me, that is just not worth the risk because the technical and FIRST related posts are more important in the overall scheme of things. Pass the word - post with care and understanding for everyone's sake.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I dont really think it would make a difference it chief delphi got rid of thje chit chat forum. But it is kinda cool having it because its an off subject topic forum thing if you have nothing to talk about.
-Court-

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I think just about everyone on CD has gotten some kind or has given some technical advice on something. I know i don't come to CD just for the chit chat, but i don't always have a technical question to ask or to answer, chit chat is a good way to learn many things about FIRST and the people involved in FIRST.
Some of the Chit chats may not be as productive but it is fun and brings everyone closer and you get to know one another.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Ken, I think this is the basis of the main question of this thread. Every year, Chiefdelphi grows. As such, a larger and larger percentage of people involved in FIRST become involved with Chiefdelphi.com in one way or another. If not by posting directly, by getting help from a team who found an answer to a problem right here. Since I joined in 2002, I have noticed dramatic increases in the number of threads and users from year to year. From the Internet Wayback Machine:

Early 2002:
Registered Members: 492
Total Threads: 855 | Total Posts: 8,130 | Total Views: 168,749
0-posters: 185 | Active Members: 261 | Inactive Members: 231

Present:
Threads: 23,818, Posts: 261,076, Members: 7,159

We have roughly 32 times more posts in 27 times more threads and 14 times more members, all within a mere 2 and a half years. That's beyond incredible growth. I think in some ways the first few hundred members miss the days when it was only a few hundred members. Smaller communities tend to bond better, get to know each other better, etc. It was easier to know everyone, recognize a name, and sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of posts. Now the community has exploded in numbers, and it would seem, like FIRST itself, is experiencing some growing pains. Older members wish for the old days, while newer members wish to express newer viewpoints on how things are/should be. Looks like the classic clash of the old and the new- like parents and kids on what good music is.

I'll say I'm in favor of chit-chat, because it does give the community (no matter how big it gets) a place to keep everything that doesn't belong in the technical/informational portion of the site. Of course, there are plenty of off-topic and needless threads and posts even within the generally more useful (in a technical sense) sections, but chit-chat gives it all a place to come together, and obtain information about other community members and things which wouldn't otherwise fit in any other category, like a catch-all for random posts.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I really like the Chit Chat forums. I mean, yeah, in the normal forums you do get the opportunity to get to know other FIRSTers a bit, but I think that one of the big purposes that the CC forums serve is to let us all get to know each other better. I like the fact that we can get to be friends on this site through things like the Chit Chat forums. :)

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Now I understand what meaubry is talking about with Chit-Chat being the biggest liability of all the sections, but if Chit-Chat was removed wouldn't the "noise" wind up in other areas? It seems to me that it is easier to keep a closer eye on one section of the forums. This gives the "noise" a place to go than to clutter other sections and be "muffled" if needed.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Keep it.

If you dont like the off topic discussion now, imagine how much worse it'll be when most of it is no longer centered in chit chat.

Cory

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Thats what I would say, if I were posting my opinion.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Agreed.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Pro Chit Chat.

What I get most from CD is community. In any community, there needs to be a place where members can have off topic conversations. It's the water cooler of CD.
It serves a important function. It allows the other conversations to remain clean of the extra stuff.

Could the chit chat forum be made opt-in? If you don't want it then turn that option off.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Interesting point. Thank you for bringing that up.

My question is, does having a Chit Chat section really gather up the noises in the area area?

I think it does, to a certain extend. People who want to chat to other people about some random stuff do post in the chit chat forum. But those are things completely unrelated to FIRST. I do not think those topic will reach over to the main forum is there is no place for it. Things like video games, evil laughter, etc.

I say it does to a certain extend because I've observed that threads to get off topic in the main forum with or without the Chit Chat section, though most are still some what related to FIRST, or some inside jokes few people share among themselves. Those will remain there with or without the chit chat section.

I want to touch on the point of the possibility that having the chit chat section may be affecting the main forum in a negative way. Lots of new members come into the chit chat forum, sense the loose attitude of posting without a certain reservation, and repeat the same attitude in the regular forums. The regular veteran posters will post because they have something to contribute, others I've seen will post because they can. That may or may not come from the chit chat section.

I've also noticed some threads in chit chat that are very political. Those kind of threads have caused many flaming wars, and may be what Meabury is talking about. Those discussions sometimes grow beyond control and have to be closed by moderators. In a way, that's not the best things to expose to the FIRST community.

I am not sure I fully understand the full impact of the chit chat section on the entire forum. It can go one way or the other. I suspect some of both is happening (chit chat section help containing the off topics, and chit chat section help increasing the off topics). Any insightful inputs will be greatly appreciated.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Speaking of politically induced headaches whatever happened to SilenceNo More?

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Who cares? he isn't here :P

A group of people figured out what team he was from and let him know that they knew.

That scared him off real quick :D

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

3 things I never argue about.

Religious Beliefs.

Politics.

Money.

Ken - I wasn't defending myself. I re-read it after work and I realize it seems like it - but I'm just getting really tired with the amount of people questioning CD.com and it's users. If the people don't like it out there - they don't have to be here. If people abuse their powers on CD.com - they will be warned/banned. I think Brandon and all the other moderators are doing an excellent job - remember this is a form - so they can't be on here 100% of the time - but it sure seems like it. I am disappointed at some of the recent thread deletions because I would like to look back in 1 or so years and remember this time.

Remember - this is the web. IT CAN NOT BE CONTROLLED. There will be times where you will be 'flamed' and other times when you do the 'flaming.' Some people feel they have to put in their .02 even if it brings down the people on CD.com/web/CD.com itself. You can try to control it - but I believe most people on the web have an open mind and can realize when someone is just being a bone head and when they are pointing out something valid.

I'm tired and have to go to court tomorrow (Traffic Ticket :mad:.) I'll post more tomorrow when I get some time at/after work.

-Matt

P.S. Ken - I'm not saying that you where questioning anyone in particular - but I am getting a 'vibe' off of the question you posted in the way you did. Am I probably thinking too much - but at this point from the past few weeks - I'd rather keep my guard up than let it down for now... :(

[edit]
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?p=287076

I think we all should take a break and laugh. We'll continue with the serious stuff tomorrow...:)

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I think Chit Chat is fine, but there needs to be stricter rules. Sometimes people just do the "post for the sake of posting" and they make thread after thread after pointless thread. A bit more posting control in that forum and it should be fine.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

How come I never hear of these things?
I miss all the fun.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I don't even know if Chit Chat really needs stricter rules or if posters just need reminders on posting rules in general. FIRST is not all work and no play, so consider Chit Chat the recess room. I've seen several comments from posters that out right say threads in Chit Chat are useless, but I disagree. I don't think ChrisH giving us an update on his wife's progress with her health is a useless thread, but then, I see FIRST as being more about the people than the machines. Nor do I think Raven_Writer giving a warning about a scholarship scam as useless either. And before there was a separate NASA section, all NASA threads were in Chit Chat...

Heidi

<========>
"A glass slipper, once shattered, can't be resoled." -Gregory Maguire

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

This quote really sums up my feelings on the topic, but I'll elaborate.

I'm one of the few people who voted against the Chit-Chat forum.

CD over the years has become one of the best resources in all of FIRST. People can count on CD for the answers to all their FIRST related questions. There's a wealth of experienced engineers and professionals who can help you with all sorts of problems.

I firmly believe that eliminating the chit-chat forum will help keep this site as such a valuable resource.

There are plenty of other online forums on the web for people to kill time and have fun. Since when did ChiefDelphi become an entertainment vessel? The point the Ken is bringing up is that many people who come here for technical information get turned off by all the nonsense in chit-chat. Many mentors do not read CD, because they see it as being too juvenile. The chit-chat forum kills a large degree of professional that this site tries to maintain.

By eliminating the Chit-Chat forum, things would become a lot more serious around here, and we would gain many new readers and posters with various new insights and information, which would make CD a much better resource. Sure, we wouldn't be able to have a lot the fun little threads that we've all come to enjoy (and yes, despite me sounding like a grinch right now, I'd miss a lot of it too). But there's no reason that these discussions couldn't occur on another board not hosted by ChiefDelphi.

I'm not saying that everything here needs to 100% business-like, but I do believe there needs to be some sort of professionalism. My rule of thumb is that I don't post anything here that I wouldn't normally be saying in a FIRST team meeting. For example, I rarely in the middle of my team meetings say "Who would you rather vote for, Bush or Kerry?". I'm still willing to joke around, but it's important to stay on topic, and in my opinion the topic is FIRST.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Allright - we may gain SOME readers - but how many would we loose...?

:o

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I disagree.
People don't come here because they don't participate in messge boards not because it has a frivilous time waster. If you don't like the page just don't use it but don't punish the other posters because it goes against your philosiphy.
Besides, the Chit Chat section is not listed in the portal so unless you search for it you won't spot it.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I didn't bother to read the whole thread, but I can say this much that the Chit Chat forum needs to be set with stricter rules. For a minute, I want everyone to think in terms that you own a forum with 5000+ members who talk just about anything. Personally, I have owned forums and they have been shut down by law because of such problems. This is FIRST, and I expect kids(and mentors sometimes) to act more mature and decent. I say we set some boundaries for the Chit-Chat forum and continue with it. Stuff like those Fantasy games etc, are good. The Chit-Chat forum also has some nice(funny, good time-pass etc)and informative threads so it would not be good to shut it down unless it goes out of hand. I can only urge all us FIRSTers to behave more adequately to preserve such a useful forum.
-Bharat

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I see both sides of the argument, but I think that we all have to remember, everyone here as a life outside of FIRST (some just don't want to admit it). Chit-Chat is the place where we get to know what kind of lives people have outside of FIRST and where we get to know each other as people, not as engineers, or future engineers, or robot builder, etc. (whatever your title may be). I like chit-chat because as it was said earlier, it is a recess from FIRST, and that's important.

That being said, I think that the Chit-Chat forum has gone down in quality, and there are A LOT of useless threads. So while I say we keep the forum, I agree with DJ that there should be stricter rules on the types of threads. Maybe a limit to how many threads a person can create a week (month) ?? Or something along those lines possibly ...

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I can understand where you are coming from. The argument in your thread earlier about the portal page image IS one of the reasons I want to start this thread. But my intention is instead of yelling at each other in individual chit chat threads about what's appropriate or not, I thought we can have a constructive discussion and look at the problem seriously: Is chit chat causing a problem in these forums?

I am not convinced it is or it isn't so far. I am hopping to hear more view points about it before drawing up any conclusions. Better to take longer than draw the wrong conclusion.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I'm sure that many people don't come here just because they don't use internet message boards, that's a given. But I've spoken with numerous people who don't read CD because of it's "childish" reputation. The don't believe that there can be information of value beneath the numerous chit-chat posts. Yes, I know that chit-chat isn't seen on the portal, but people still see it as the dominant use of this board. I still see plenty of room for threads such as the Fantasy FIRST games, the birthday announcements and others like those.

I'd be willing to lose posters whose only interest is chit chat, to gain those who's sole interest is FIRST. I think those who participate in both chit-chat and the other forums, would still remain if chit-chat was toned down or eliminated. I could be wrong about this, but I think most of the hybrid posters are here mainly for the FIRST discussion.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

An idea...

What if the folks at CD simply took out the chitchat forum, and began STRONGLY enforcing a no chit chat policy. Then, the chatter wouldn't just slide into the other forums (or, if it did, it wouldn't last long.)

To take it's place, someone else starts www.firstsocialboard.com
which is a message board dedicated to chit/chat among FIRSTers.

This way, CD remains the communitty hub for team/FIRST/technical support and discussion. fsb.com turns into the "chatty" board.

Delphi doesn't have to deal with the liability.
The level of quality of cd.com will increase.
The chatters will have a new home.

fsb.com could have it's own set of moderators who enforce a (much relaxed) code of conduct from the *new* CD.com.

I see this as my ideal world.
If I want to talk robots in a serious manner, I hit up CD.com (obviously some jokes would remain, ala Dave Lavery type humor joking about FIRST)

If I want to socialize with other FIRSTers, voice my political views, talk about the newest movies, etc etc... I go to fsb.com


Any thoughts?

JVN

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

John,

This is exactly what I was getting at in my post. I think this is a prime idea, that suits the needs of all parties. Kudos.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I agree with some of what you say, but on the other hand, if people are coming looking for technical information, they should never see the chit chat forums.

Like myself and others said earlier, if chit chat goes away, the forums will just be swamped with off topic posts right and left. At least now they're mostly in one isolated place. The moderator's jobs would become a whole hell of a lot harder if they had to deal with cleaning up pointless threads in every sub forum.

Cory

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I voted "Yes, I like the chit chat section" even though I would have worded the positive response something like "Yes, keep the Chit-Chat forum."

There's too much inanity* in there for my taste. But the forum has its place. As has already been stated, if Chit-Chat were no longer, then all that silliness would surface as off-topic threads and posts in other fora.

*That's just a two-bit word that means silliness. Please don't flame.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

JVN, I totally agree with your point that Chief Delphi does not have to deal with liability issues. They are providing us with a forum which is a major source of information, so even though the Chit-Chat forum is kinda fun to have, it might be wise to remove it.

Instead of the Chit-Chat maybe we could simply have something else that does not say "Chit Chat" in a broad sense. Maybe a sub forum to talk about other techy stuff not so related to FIRST. At any cost it is not fair to CD to deal with any liability issues, so its best we come up with alternatives or eliminate the chit chat entirely, i say. Thoughts?
-Bharat

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I am with Karthik on this point. It's not as much as the chit chat threads covering up the portal page as the attitude of the forum seems to have shifted toward this "childlish" one. Not exactly childlish, but a lot of posts aren't as serious as they should be in the regular forums.

A lot of people think Chief Delphi Forum isn't useful anymore because of that. They get turned off by the chit chat attitude, and are no longer contributing as much as they used to or would have. You can see a lot of mentors no longer post as much as they used to.

However, this might be a seperate thing to work on, trying to change this attitude. Taking away the chit chat forum may or may not fix this. It will certainly make a statement that we want to be more serious in this forum, but maybe that statement does not need to be made by removing chit chat section. I am simply out of ideas on how to tell posters to treat their post more seriously and throughtfully other than posting about it.

This may be a very practical solution to the whole problem. We are not removing chit chat, instead we are giving it special focus and attention. Imagine, a website dedicated for chatting with other FIRSTers and socialize with the community. There can be many potentials for this website to be tons of fun. You certainly don't need Brandon to do things for you everytime you come up with an idea.

The only problem is the job of creating a website and maintaining it. Very hard to accomplish unless a certain individual/team is willing to put personal effort into making it happen.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

If webspace is an issue, then I say that Chit-Shat should be the first thing to be eliminated definately.

If webspace is not an issue, why get rid of it? It's only a portion of the whole community that FIRST is based on. Maybe you can have the option like stated before by someone to turn it off.

But, if you are like me, you hate missing something. I have the OCCRA threads available to me even though I don't participate in that. I vote to make it user selectable if that would be possible, or even a more extreme idea would be to shut off the Chit-Chat section during the period from January to maybe April?
(Idk.. a bit extreme way of handling it, but it could be done..??)

If liability is an issue and it becomes a liability to keep the CC section, then this is truely beyond our control and only Team 47 and/or Delphi will have the last say in that. But seriously, I have not seen anything that would prompt the immediate shutoff of the Chit-Chat section.

I am a big supporter of free speech, and while some things have been posted in Chit-Chat that do not have to do with FIRST and some stuff has even been controversial to a point, that's why we have these wonderful moderators.

If anything, get rid of the Rumor Mill if you can't take a joke or whatever your reason is behind eliminating the Chit-Chat section.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Just a clarification about my original post.

I meant NO disprespect to Chief Delphi the team, the administration, or to the administrators of this website. I feel the moderation and management of this site is TOP NOTCH.

My post was only an idea, stimulated by the concerns listed in Mike Aubry's post of this thread.

I have NO problem with how things are being run right now, and wouldn't be concerned if things stayed as is. However, I certainly feel we need to work together to improve things, it improvements are deemed necessary by the "powers that be". My post reflected only one such suggestion.

Thank You,
JVN

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Agree. This website is and always will be runned by Team 47 Chief Delphi. Any discussions I start about this forum is only intended for discussions and opinions.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Having skimmed through all of the posts on this thread, here is my $0.02 I used to never come to CD during the summer or for that matter any time between my team's lat competition and the kickoff. However, due to the fact that the Chit Chat section is "busy" this summer, I am "staying around" in CD forum land.

Since I am not with a team anymore, I would have no need to come to CD anymore if a Social Site was implemented or the chit chat section was removed. Why is this? I partake in the "Word Association" Thread and each time I get the new post e-mail, I post on the thread and then I look at the portal to see if there are any interesting threads going.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I went back and read the forum rules. They are fair, balanced and also broad enough to allow this community to sustain itself and to sustain chit chat.
There is a very fine line between passion and emotion, sometime it gets crossed. Let's not confuse the two.

We all need to play by the rules.

We are community... I hope we stay that way.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Nicely Put. The bigger picture is that we are all in this program together, as a community. Though we may not agree with each other on everything, we still share the same values... Friendship, Professionalism, and Compassion... Values that guide us to share this world with fellow human beings. And we share the same goals, Education and Inspiration. Sometimes we lost sight of that when we pursuit something with too much passion. That's what I did when I thought about this issue. I thought too much about what I want and not enough about the rest.

As a student of engineering and philosophy, I must learn to see reality as it is, and the reality is, as demonstrated by the poll and replies in this thread, people enjoy the chit chat section in this forum. Most of the posters in this thread like things the way they are. If that is the wishes of the majority, then I can live with that. After all, this website was created by Chief Delphi for the good of the community.

I will, however, continue to believe the values of having a seriously, meaningful conduit for FIRST participants to communicate with each other. A place that focuses in Friendship, Communication, Cooperation, and Professionalism. Whether or not the current Chief Delphi Forum have those focuses is up to you to decide.

I for one will continue searching for questions, and hopefully answers that follow them. But that's another thread another time in another place... Good luck and Goodbye.


I can't stress enough how grateful I am of the existence of this forum. Going back to what Meaubry and John was talking about, if the chit chat section really does become a liability and cause anything to happen to the entire website or team 47, I would hate to see that happen and will accept any changes necessary to prevent that. I will support any decision team 47 makes 100%.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Maybe when we don't have anything to talk about, we don't post. Sorry, just had to note that.

But, I am for chit-chat. At the very least, it keeps the random things from appearing in the more "important" parts of the forum. If you don't want to see anything about chit-chat, Brandon has provided a way to filter out all that "junk" from your portal. And those fortunate guests are already protected. :)

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

The one thing that I see happening if you were to eliminate chit-chat is that you would get about two or three people visiting the forums during the summer. The only thing that irks me about the chit chat forums is the 6 or 7 political topics that always degrades into a argument. Also, no one ever uses the science forum to post science related articles. They always post it in the chit-chat forum where I rarely read the articles.Im not sure but if you read the the chit-chat area we have a conspiracy theorist posting.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

In the past, I think I'd have defended the chit-chat forum as a good place for people to take a break from the good work they're doing and have some fun. Today, I wouldn't be upset for the forum to disappear altogether, as I don't feel like many of the people participating in that forum are doing hard work of any sort. They're goofing off exclusively and making it much harder for people to get answers to questions and to learn from one another in meaningful, relevant ways.

I've gone from checking the content on this site several times daily to checking it twice a week. I believe that I rarely miss anything worthwhile as a result. The growth of this site is exciting and promising, but I'd rather see that there are 14 times as many insightful engineers contributing than 14 times as many high school sophomores.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Just because a forum exists doesn't mean that you have to read it. You wouldn't even know the Chit-Chat forum was there unless you scroll all the way to the bottom of the page. Unless its causing strain on the moderators or presents a liability issue then whats the problem? The Washington Post is a serious newspaper but it still has a comics page. From what I understand the CC forum is in a sandbox anyways because its posts are not aggregated in the portal. Unless you seek it out I think you're pretty well protected from reading any off-topic stuff by accident. If the host doesn't mind someone else doing something silly at the party, and you don't have to see it, then why complain?

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I lost sleep thinking about this thread last night, and several times I almost got up to post again, decided not to because I knew I would then spend the rest of the night thinking about what I posted. But I did want to add a few more comments.

I'm glad some of you clarified your good opinions of Chief Delphi, because this site is an all around amazing site and Brandon and his crew deserve the respect of everyone who uses it. I cringe every time I read another person posting "CD's gone downhill" type posts because it can only be taken as an insult to the people who put so much time and effort into running this site. The site has changed just as the people who post here change... it's not good, it's not bad, it just is.

I post mainly on Chit Chat (and this does not mean I do not do hard work) if I feel my opinion matters to a thread outside of Chit Chat, I post, if I feel it doesn't matter, I stay quiet. If Chief Delphi decided the purpose of the forum was for technical discussion only, then I would support that 100% because it is their forum. I would be sad of course, because I've grown to love the community here and I think that there is a part of this community that is partially formed by information revealed, and banter done in Chit Chat threads. No, I wouldn't stand up in the middle of a meeting and ask everyone if they prefer Bush or Kerry. But in the ten minutes before a meeting, during lunch times on 8 hour build days, and during the waiting around for a ride time after a meeting, I love finding out about the students lives. I want to know what their favorite band is or if they've read a good book... I want to hear what crazy thing happened to them at school that day. That's chit chat, and I personally think it builds a better team.

I would hate to see the Chit Chat forum hosted on another site with a more relaxed code of conduct. I've belonged to many message boards, most of them with this more relaxed code of conduct, and the fighting that goes on is enough to make you pull your hair out. Moderators are supposed to moderate, and this means warning people about behavior, deleting inappropriate threads... reminding people that the thread they just started has been started five times before... (and I must add that Brandon and his professional crew of moderators do a darn good job of this). These flame wars don't always happen in the Chit Chat section either, wasn't there some big fights over last year's game rules and on collaboration? Snarls and tangles are always going to happen, especially with so many people from so many different backgrounds and especially when all conversations are in writing and open for interpretation. It happens on all forums, moderated or not.

Well, I hope you don't mind the opinion of a habitual chit-chatter because there it is!

Heidi

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

For those of you that just want "the point" then (yes, read paragraph 4)
I personally have a very broad sense of what qualifies as "chit-chat", which is why I would have to argue for the chit-chat forum to stay. Logically it is a huge liability and I understand this, but are not rumors essentially educated gossip as well as certain threads in the extra discussion ? The key to a successful chit-chat area isn't better mods, because Brandon and the rest of the mods are by far the best moderators I have ever seen. CD is a huge place and I don't know how it's humanly possible to do such a superb job as they do. The key to chit-chat is that it needs to be focused. I agree with the opinion that the chit-chat forum and the main forums aren't nearly the same as when I joined (which is fairly recently); this is because posters aren't sure of what's required of them. I know that sometimes it's easier to simply read the first and last pages of the thread and then reply, but I read every page of a technical discussion if I am planning to reply to it.
With that said, Many times after I read a forum, I realize that I haven't a good enough reason to post as I originally thought I did. Sometimes it is because someone such as Rob B. or Brandon M. or John V. Neun. or Amanda M., etc... and resolved the questions at hand (Sometimes I'll search a thread for certain user names when I'm just looking for information because I know that what they post is 100% top notch). Sometimes it's as simple as the thread taking a turn in the discussion that I don't feel I can help with.
And so I come to the crux of my post.
I am a high school junior.
Having established this, in a thread dealing with low-tech creative solutions and certain team-related activities, I can share my thoughts and experiences. When it comes to a technical discussion such as gearboxes, I bookmark the thread and check later when John V. N. or Andy (Yes I apologize for the liberal use of first names in advance) has posted. In the meantime, I think I'll check my all-time favorite non-technical thread before I leavethe word association (organization, group, get-together, meeting) , which contains the level of technical discussion that I function at.
What was my point? The Chit-Chat threads give the bulk of FIRST (The enthusiastic high-schoolers) a place to belong on the CD forum. You cannot forget that while we may (I admit it) get in the way sometimes, the majority of us, I hope, read and think about their posts as I try to. If I read the technical forums and then go away thinking, that's, usually, a good thing. If I however know that I have no reason to come to CD because everything is discussed at the astrophysical (rocket-scientist) level, FIRST loses something. It's the same as the Scientific American or Popular Science magazines, they're a nice middle-ground between reading journals (not fun at all but very informative and time intensive) and gossip (usually fun, barely ever yield anything of value). I personally would still come to CD to read the technical threads, but as also pointed out, much readership would be lost. Many of the chit-chat people are also highschoolers and if you drive them away, doesn't that defeat the point of the existance of CD?
A solution : Go to the FIRST website. They have a place where a moderated (correct me if I'm wrong) coaches-only discussion can ensue. This is a great place for highly technical FIRST-related discussion.

The second (and final point to be made in my longest post ever :rolleyes: ...will not be to make shorter posts.) point as well as the moral to this is that chit-chat is good because it draws students, which is one of the core priciples of FIRST. To inspire school students. I quote my coach "It's hard to get 'em in the door. Once they're they see how great it is, but you have to get them there first.". If it takes a chit-chat thread to "get 'em [us highschool students] in the door", I'm all for it. I realize that posts will surface that are flat-out wrong. This needs to be dealt with. I realize that threads will be made (I haven't created any. The only two I have to my name are two that occured when I left my account online...oops.) that are useless to such a high deegree that many people will petition for mandatory IQ tests and Background screenings to join CD. I realize this. But for the most part (I hope), students (such as myself) are responsible individuals and that they can be trusted to post responsibly.
Another solution. Feel an idividual is posting "just to post?" Talk to a mod. Talk to them. Tell them how to improve their postings. There will always be that .001% that's incurable, but its amazing what words can do.

In short:
Chit-Chat -> Readership -> Inspiration -> Good

So you see, that I see is not the chit-chat. It is poor posting habits and too many forums (see 1st paragraph) that have a grey-area that would allow chit-chat to seep into them if the chit-chat forum was abolished.

But that's just the point of view of this one junior who's not had to put up with being a moderator, so he doesn't know how hard it is (although he assumes its pretty trying at times) that's got such a bad sinus cold that he thinks he's just going to keel over on the keyboard. I'm sure I made some repititions here, so PM me if I need to change this to be less long-winded and if you have any suggestions to that (or other) ends. It comes from living with a lawyer (though that's not a bad thing at the end of the day).

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I've been thinking about a way to express how absurd I think removing the Chit Chat forum is... and the only way I can say it is that if Chit Chat was removed from Chief Delphi, I honestly wouldn't look at the site until build season rolled around again.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I originally decided to stay out of this debate but after I had read through most of these post I still can not find enough reasons why there should not be a chit chat forum. Having it does not hurt anyone in anyway. If you don't want to read it, then don't. I also don't see how not having it could increase the number of Chief Delphi readers, it could only diminish the number from my point of view. Another point brought up was the professionalism of the site with chit chat threads, frankly I don't think that really matters. This is a high school student driven organization and most readers are teenagers. Don't get me wrong we need to up hold a certain standard but its not as important as some of you are making it out to be. I think sometimes we forget this and we over analyze every little detail like the quality of the Who Am I pictures. You may not agree with this and that's fine, we all have our different opinions.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Mike Aubry (forgive me if I've forgotten how to spell your name correctly) wrote:
Our moderators do an awesome job of monitoring this section, but even so, this is a difficult forum to justify. You see, it only takes one bad post to cause me (lead from Delphi on this team) to have headaches and potentially phone calls from the higher ups at Delphi. I explain that we are continuously monitoring the website - but - if it gets out of control, we won't only lose the Chit Chat forum - we potentially could lose the entire chiefdelphi website.

What more reason do you need? The inanity of chit-chat will potentially hurt both the people who post and the people who use the site as a resource without participating.

I'm not terribly interested in pursuing this discussion, or any discussion here, for that matter. I don't, however, believe the problem is that the chit-chat threads exist. I believe the "problem" is that FIRST is a lot bigger than it used to be and that accessibility has lowered the caliber of its participants.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

2 thoughts come to mind -

a) Has the Chit-Chat forum always been a liability then?
b) I would think that a higher up from Delphi would be able to distinguish the difference between a humorous Chit-Chat post and a serious, content packed Technical Forum post.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

To add to this, there will always be a liability in these types of forums. There is a chance that there will be bad post in other forums as well, so I don't see the need to remove one forum when they could post the same thing in another.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

While this is slightly off-topic (pro chitchat, but that may be because I cannot experience the inner workings of being a moderator having to monitor and be the balance of a code of conduct), I must disagree with the opinion that the accessibility of FIRST has brought a lower caliber of participants. While in terms of the cold reality of grades, SAT scores and public testing, yes some people may be of a "higher caliber" than others, one of the main points of the FIRST competition is the experience. If working on a robotics team means that you are inspired to be an engineer, or a trades worker, if you don't have the grades, it doesn't mean that you are a lower caliber. I don't believe this is what M was commenting on, but I had to make sure to point that out. Accessibility is a huge problem when dealing with education as a whole. If a private school has huge resources and a number of dedicated and caring teachers that are able to dote on students all hours of the day, does that make the students themselves a higher caliber than students that attend a public high school in an urban-density area? Accessibility is not a bad thing! FIRST is being spread to more people around the world with a greater diversity of attitudes, ideas and messages. While they may not always be mindful of the rules while posting in a forum, there is no question that FIRST wouldn't be better off without them. It can mean giving a person the idea to pursue an opportunity or an area they would never have though existed before. "Caliber" isn't something that students should be defined by, especially in FIRST. There is enough pressure on everyday students now, FIRST should be an academic escape, with a level playing field and equal treatment and expectations of everyone. (as much of a pipe dream as it sounds, thats how I believe it should be).

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I see no problem with chit chat. There are more posts in the Chit-Chat forum right now than the General forum, since the counts were last reset. If you want super technical stuff, then Chit Chat isn't your place. Chit chat brings people into this community we call Chief Delphi. I know that my first 10-15 posts were in Chit Chat because I was more confidant talking about nothing subjects than real ones. It gets people involved with other FIRST people. Thats all this is for. To get us talking, is it not? If all you use this for is technical information, go for it, but a book from your local library would do the same thing, if not better. The default for the portal is to not even show recent posts in chit chat, so if you're reading chit chat, it is because you clicked onto the chit chat forum. Plain and simple.

Other thoughts...

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I'm going to have to partially disagree with this - FIRST brings students and engineers together to interact with each other and I think we're forgetting that. From the FIRST website - "FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs to build self-confidence, knowledge and life skills while motivating young people to pursue opportunities in science, technology and engineering." So, since FIRST was created to motivate young people why is it a bad thing that hundreds of students converse and meet with each other through FIRST?

Just a thought. :]

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Yeah I think it always was a liability. I've noticed that a lot of the flack I occasionaly saw in the chit-chat forum is starting to come up in a consistent basis. It's mainly the political discussions that are the problem and Im not sure why but they have become worst since I began on these forums. I seriously doubt there is any political topic that didn't degrade into a horrible arguement. (Not that they were any sane discussions to start with.) One thread starts; it gets closed, and then the whole entire process starts over again.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

And there you have it. The final key to the combination lock I haven't been able to understand. Silly me for not seeing it earlier.

Good luck. :-)

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

The world isn't made out of Nerf, you will get scrapes and bruses, but you will get back up and continue on. If you watch out you can avoid the sharp edges.

Chiefdelphi dosn't need to be encased in Nerf to prevent it's downfall, because if it is encased, that probably will cause the downfall.

I've found many times I would want to post something off topic that the people here would like to see. I've seen forums where they can't talk politics and religion and it's not a very good place. You have no character and it's dead.

I don't think we need a career section on CD, nor do we need other forums. Lets just get rid of the motor section too since I don't like it either. Hey, less to moderate and less liability issues. What? Oh, those are core ideas in FIRST you say? What about socializing? What about having fun? What about just being random. Think about it guys, FIRST has regional and championship parties not only to feed us, but also to entertain and let us hang with people LIKE US.

Abviously, I voted for Chit Chat.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Im sorry but removing politics and religion from chit-chat topics would probably be the best thing. They almost always degenerate into flame wars or people just suffer from foot in mouth disease. People have called other people racists here. Also, the chit-chat forum does little to stop other topics from getting off kilter. The Segway in a rap video topic became an issue of morality.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

Ryan ,
answers
a) yes, but we try and mitigate it by using moderators
b) the higher ups would not call based on their personal viewing of the Chit Chat forum, there are many other ways that issues are communicated. The point is that Delphi supports this website, therefore our expectation is not to have to be contacted in the first place. No one wants to be associated with a website that could turn into a liability, not the school, the school system, or the company sponsor. So, it's our (this teams leadership) that must make decisions relative to how the website is to be run, while still trying to provide a service to all of the FIRST community. That service should and will continue to include providing a place for the exchange of ideas, thoughts, and opinions associated with the FIRST program. The only thing that is in question is - does the Chit Chat forum meet that requirement?

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I think this is what FIRSTwiki should do! The fourm format doesn't work well at all as an information storage and retreival system, but it works great for discussion. So as usual, my solution to the problem is to encourage everyone to enhance and depend on FIRSTwiki.

Re: To chit chat or not to chit chat
 

I, as the starter of the Kerry or Bush and Why poll, easily agrees to this. I saw my poll grow awfully nicely, come back once and die, then come back again and go downhill, through the concrete at the bottom of the hill, and goto... well... you know. I found that VERY unFIRSTly and that will not happen again as long as we as forum members don't allow that sort of stuff on the website.

One thing to keep in mind, this forum is not closed to the public. Anyone can view the stuff we talk about and respond to it via e-mail if they aren't a member.

Yes, chit-chat should go on despite this.