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-   -   Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30449)

Robot Dude 0101 24-09-2004 21:47
Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Im new to FIRST and I don't know if there is a restriction to what sensors can be used on the robot. I would like to learn robot vision so i was thinking of using the CMUcam on a robot but I dont know if there are restrictions on what sensors you can use.

Rod 24-09-2004 21:57
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Im new to FIRST and I don't know if there is a restriction to what sensors can be used on the robot. I would like to learn robot vision so i was thinking of using the CMUcam on a robot but I dont know if there are restrictions on what sensors you can use.
As far as I know you can not use a camera on the robot.

Elgin Clock 24-09-2004 22:34
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Im new to FIRST .....
OK, this is a general post to all newbies.

Sit back and take a deep breath.
Look at your team's robot and kit of parts inventory from the previous year.
Learn what was used in previous years, in case it makes a return in 2005.

(If you are a rookie team this could be a problem.)

Most of all.. chill out.
No one knows what exactly is in those kit of parts until you get them in 2005.

Every team gets 6 weeks to build. So, in essence, every team is as stressed as you are going to be in those 6 weeks.

Cory 24-09-2004 22:40
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
We stuck a camera on our robot at Cal Games in 03' and Sacramento in 2004

We didnt have access to the feed though. Sometimes they'd put it up on the big screen when you got an interesting perspective. We had to make sure that it was not on a frequency that conflicted with any field elements, and that it fit size and weight constraints.

If you're asking to put it on there so drivers can view the feed on a monitor and see something that would normally be obstructed from their view, help line up the bot with something, or any other reason to give your team an advantage, the answer is going to be no.

Robot Dude 0101 24-09-2004 22:49
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
We stuck a camera on our robot at Cal Games in 03' and Sacramento in 2004

We didnt have access to the feed though. Sometimes they'd put it up on the big screen when you got an interesting perspective. We had to make sure that it was not on a frequency that conflicted with any field elements, and that it fit size and weight constraints.

If you're asking to put it on there so drivers can view the feed on a monitor and see something that would normally be obstructed from their view, help line up the bot with something, or any other reason to give your team an advantage, the answer is going to be no.
What I meant was to write a program in C and use the camera as a sensor - not to transmit video. The point of this would be to use robot vision to try and accomplish the tasks.

Joshua May 24-09-2004 22:53
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
What I meant was to write a program in C and use the camera as a sensor - not to transmit video. The point of this would be to use robot vision to try and accomplish the tasks.
I think a camera quold be quite a bit of overkill. If you planed on using this camera like a light sensor, you can use the Banner sensors (or something similar that comes in the kit this year) to follow lines. Really, it all depends on this year's game though.

Jaine Perotti 24-09-2004 23:11
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Im new to FIRST and I don't know if there is a restriction to what sensors can be used on the robot. I would like to learn robot vision so i was thinking of using the CMUcam on a robot but I dont know if there are restrictions on what sensors you can use.
From the 2004 rules: (these may change for 2005, but probably won't)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 Robot Rules
<R71>Additional electronic components for use on the robot must be currently available from or equivalent to those available from Newark InONe (http://www.newarkinone.com), Future Active (http://future-active.com), Radio SHack (http://www.radioshack.com) or Digi-key Corporation (http://www.digikey.com). Additional electronic components include any object that conducts electricity other than IFI relays and voltage controllers, wires, connectors and solder. The total catalogue value of additional electronic components must not exceed $300.00 USD. This cost is counted as part of the $3,500 limit. No single electronic component shall have a catalogue value of over $100.00 USD.
<R72> Refer to the Part Use Flowchart to help determine the legality of the part.
If the CMU cam costs under $100, and this doesn't raise your additional electronics cost over $300, and you can buy the part from the above companies...then it looks like you are ok. Try using the flowchart mentioned above to determine if the part is legal. (again, this is by 2004 standards...this MAY be subject to change)
(a little off topic) I have heard that the CMU cam is quite a challenge to program. It has incredible capabilities. Do you know how to program it or have any resources for learning how?? If so, I think it would be a great thread topic to share your knowledge of this sensor. Please tell us!!! (even if we can't use it for FIRST Robotics)
[edit] I just found the website for the CMU cam if any of you are wondering what it is. [/edit]

Max Lobovsky 25-09-2004 00:34
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
The CMUcam is pretty cool and its a nice little package for the features it packs, thanks for posting about it. From the site:

" Track user defined color blobs at up to 50 Frames Per Second (frame rate depends on resolution and window size settings)"

Regardless, I really doubt you could adapt it to FIRST. I don't know exactly what they mean by "color blob", but it doesn't sound like its going to be able to track any object on any previous years fields. With the lighting on the field, even big yellow balls are often light and dark yellow hemispheres with some large white circle somewhere on them (shadows and reflections). To make matters worse, 175 happens to sitting across the field with their bright yellow robot.

I think this camera is not intended to be used in a "real life" situation, it just seems impossible that it could pack that much versatility and power. Tracking a single color blob just won't cut it.

Robot Dude 0101 25-09-2004 10:06
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
From the 2004 rules: (these may change for 2005, but probably won't)

If the CMU cam costs under $100, and this doesn't raise your additional electronics cost over $300, and you can buy the part from the above companies...then it looks like you are ok. Try using the flowchart mentioned above to determine if the part is legal. (again, this is by 2004 standards...this MAY be subject to change)
(a little off topic) I have heard that the CMU cam is quite a challenge to program. It has incredible capabilities. Do you know how to program it or have any resources for learning how?? If so, I think it would be a great thread topic to share your knowledge of this sensor. Please tell us!!! (even if we can't use it for FIRST Robotics)
[edit] I just found the website for the CMU cam if any of you are wondering what it is. [/edit]
Some things on how to program the CMUcam and example programs are given at this thread here .

Rickertsen2 25-09-2004 11:58
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
To answer the original question:
You can use whatever sensors you want as long as they fall within the budgetary restricions. This includes cameras and whatever else you can think of.

dez250 25-09-2004 12:34
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Rule on Non-functional Decorations (including cameras)

"<R57> Any decorations that involve broadcasting a signal to/from the robot, such as remote cameras, must be cleared with FIRST Engineering prior to use. Teams may not use 900 MHz camera systems."

ahecht 25-09-2004 12:53
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickertsen2
To answer the original question:
You can use whatever sensors you want as long as they fall within the budgetary restricions. This includes cameras and whatever else you can think of.
Not true (unless you are claiming to know the 2005 rules). Assuming they go with the 2004 rules, you can only use sensors that could be purchased from Newark InOne, Future Active, Radio Shack, or Digi-key.

I'll add that I hope you are right, and that electronics are opened up in 2005 in a similar way that mechanical parts were opened up a couple years ago (i.e. any parts under budget except for these banned items).

Andrew 25-09-2004 13:04
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Botball uses the CMU-cam. It interfaces to either the handy-board or the Lego Mindstorms RCX (I think). It cannot be that hard to use to do something useful if elementary school students can use it to find cups.

If allowed in 2005, I can certainly see the possibility of using the CMU-cam to track moving objects, such as robots for purposes of avoidance and to look for goals, big balls, or whatever distinctive object that FIRST might put out on the playing field.

Jaine Perotti 25-09-2004 15:17
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dez250
Rule on Non-functional Decorations (including cameras)

"<R57> Any decorations that involve broadcasting a signal to/from the robot, such as remote cameras, must be cleared with FIRST Engineering prior to use. Teams may not use 900 MHz camera systems."
There some people who seem to misunderstand this thread.
The CMUcam does not broadcast a signal to/from the robot. It does not videotape a match. Rather, it can be used to track objects/patterns on the field. Read about it.

Ted Boucher 25-09-2004 16:21
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
We stuck a camera on our robot at Cal Games in 03' and Sacramento in 2004

We didnt have access to the feed though. Sometimes they'd put it up on the big screen when you got an interesting perspective. We had to make sure that it was not on a frequency that conflicted with any field elements, and that it fit size and weight constraints.

If you're asking to put it on there so drivers can view the feed on a monitor and see something that would normally be obstructed from their view, help line up the bot with something, or any other reason to give your team an advantage, the answer is going to be no.
At nationals, we picked team 386 as one of our alliance partners. Their coach wore a hat that had a mini video camera that was zip tided to it. This was used to show their coaches point of view so he would not get in trouble if he made a good call from his point of view, but from the stands looked like a bad call. To get back to the topic, they were able to view this camera form a TV in the stands and recorded it with an attached VCR. They said that FIRST had completely cleared it for that use and it was on a frequency that FIRST did not use. So I think that there is no conflict at all with being able to view or not view the feed from a video camera no matter where it is located.


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