Chief Delphi

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   Kit & Additional Hardware (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=55)
-   -   Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30449)

Robot Dude 0101 24-09-2004 21:47
Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Im new to FIRST and I don't know if there is a restriction to what sensors can be used on the robot. I would like to learn robot vision so i was thinking of using the CMUcam on a robot but I dont know if there are restrictions on what sensors you can use.

Rod 24-09-2004 21:57
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Im new to FIRST and I don't know if there is a restriction to what sensors can be used on the robot. I would like to learn robot vision so i was thinking of using the CMUcam on a robot but I dont know if there are restrictions on what sensors you can use.
As far as I know you can not use a camera on the robot.

Elgin Clock 24-09-2004 22:34
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Im new to FIRST .....
OK, this is a general post to all newbies.

Sit back and take a deep breath.
Look at your team's robot and kit of parts inventory from the previous year.
Learn what was used in previous years, in case it makes a return in 2005.

(If you are a rookie team this could be a problem.)

Most of all.. chill out.
No one knows what exactly is in those kit of parts until you get them in 2005.

Every team gets 6 weeks to build. So, in essence, every team is as stressed as you are going to be in those 6 weeks.

Cory 24-09-2004 22:40
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
We stuck a camera on our robot at Cal Games in 03' and Sacramento in 2004

We didnt have access to the feed though. Sometimes they'd put it up on the big screen when you got an interesting perspective. We had to make sure that it was not on a frequency that conflicted with any field elements, and that it fit size and weight constraints.

If you're asking to put it on there so drivers can view the feed on a monitor and see something that would normally be obstructed from their view, help line up the bot with something, or any other reason to give your team an advantage, the answer is going to be no.

Robot Dude 0101 24-09-2004 22:49
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
We stuck a camera on our robot at Cal Games in 03' and Sacramento in 2004

We didnt have access to the feed though. Sometimes they'd put it up on the big screen when you got an interesting perspective. We had to make sure that it was not on a frequency that conflicted with any field elements, and that it fit size and weight constraints.

If you're asking to put it on there so drivers can view the feed on a monitor and see something that would normally be obstructed from their view, help line up the bot with something, or any other reason to give your team an advantage, the answer is going to be no.
What I meant was to write a program in C and use the camera as a sensor - not to transmit video. The point of this would be to use robot vision to try and accomplish the tasks.

Joshua May 24-09-2004 22:53
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
What I meant was to write a program in C and use the camera as a sensor - not to transmit video. The point of this would be to use robot vision to try and accomplish the tasks.
I think a camera quold be quite a bit of overkill. If you planed on using this camera like a light sensor, you can use the Banner sensors (or something similar that comes in the kit this year) to follow lines. Really, it all depends on this year's game though.

Jaine Perotti 24-09-2004 23:11
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Im new to FIRST and I don't know if there is a restriction to what sensors can be used on the robot. I would like to learn robot vision so i was thinking of using the CMUcam on a robot but I dont know if there are restrictions on what sensors you can use.
From the 2004 rules: (these may change for 2005, but probably won't)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004 Robot Rules
<R71>Additional electronic components for use on the robot must be currently available from or equivalent to those available from Newark InONe (http://www.newarkinone.com), Future Active (http://future-active.com), Radio SHack (http://www.radioshack.com) or Digi-key Corporation (http://www.digikey.com). Additional electronic components include any object that conducts electricity other than IFI relays and voltage controllers, wires, connectors and solder. The total catalogue value of additional electronic components must not exceed $300.00 USD. This cost is counted as part of the $3,500 limit. No single electronic component shall have a catalogue value of over $100.00 USD.
<R72> Refer to the Part Use Flowchart to help determine the legality of the part.
If the CMU cam costs under $100, and this doesn't raise your additional electronics cost over $300, and you can buy the part from the above companies...then it looks like you are ok. Try using the flowchart mentioned above to determine if the part is legal. (again, this is by 2004 standards...this MAY be subject to change)
(a little off topic) I have heard that the CMU cam is quite a challenge to program. It has incredible capabilities. Do you know how to program it or have any resources for learning how?? If so, I think it would be a great thread topic to share your knowledge of this sensor. Please tell us!!! (even if we can't use it for FIRST Robotics)
[edit] I just found the website for the CMU cam if any of you are wondering what it is. [/edit]

Max Lobovsky 25-09-2004 00:34
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
The CMUcam is pretty cool and its a nice little package for the features it packs, thanks for posting about it. From the site:

" Track user defined color blobs at up to 50 Frames Per Second (frame rate depends on resolution and window size settings)"

Regardless, I really doubt you could adapt it to FIRST. I don't know exactly what they mean by "color blob", but it doesn't sound like its going to be able to track any object on any previous years fields. With the lighting on the field, even big yellow balls are often light and dark yellow hemispheres with some large white circle somewhere on them (shadows and reflections). To make matters worse, 175 happens to sitting across the field with their bright yellow robot.

I think this camera is not intended to be used in a "real life" situation, it just seems impossible that it could pack that much versatility and power. Tracking a single color blob just won't cut it.

Robot Dude 0101 25-09-2004 10:06
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
From the 2004 rules: (these may change for 2005, but probably won't)

If the CMU cam costs under $100, and this doesn't raise your additional electronics cost over $300, and you can buy the part from the above companies...then it looks like you are ok. Try using the flowchart mentioned above to determine if the part is legal. (again, this is by 2004 standards...this MAY be subject to change)
(a little off topic) I have heard that the CMU cam is quite a challenge to program. It has incredible capabilities. Do you know how to program it or have any resources for learning how?? If so, I think it would be a great thread topic to share your knowledge of this sensor. Please tell us!!! (even if we can't use it for FIRST Robotics)
[edit] I just found the website for the CMU cam if any of you are wondering what it is. [/edit]
Some things on how to program the CMUcam and example programs are given at this thread here .

Rickertsen2 25-09-2004 11:58
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
To answer the original question:
You can use whatever sensors you want as long as they fall within the budgetary restricions. This includes cameras and whatever else you can think of.

dez250 25-09-2004 12:34
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Rule on Non-functional Decorations (including cameras)

"<R57> Any decorations that involve broadcasting a signal to/from the robot, such as remote cameras, must be cleared with FIRST Engineering prior to use. Teams may not use 900 MHz camera systems."

ahecht 25-09-2004 12:53
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickertsen2
To answer the original question:
You can use whatever sensors you want as long as they fall within the budgetary restricions. This includes cameras and whatever else you can think of.
Not true (unless you are claiming to know the 2005 rules). Assuming they go with the 2004 rules, you can only use sensors that could be purchased from Newark InOne, Future Active, Radio Shack, or Digi-key.

I'll add that I hope you are right, and that electronics are opened up in 2005 in a similar way that mechanical parts were opened up a couple years ago (i.e. any parts under budget except for these banned items).

Andrew 25-09-2004 13:04
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Botball uses the CMU-cam. It interfaces to either the handy-board or the Lego Mindstorms RCX (I think). It cannot be that hard to use to do something useful if elementary school students can use it to find cups.

If allowed in 2005, I can certainly see the possibility of using the CMU-cam to track moving objects, such as robots for purposes of avoidance and to look for goals, big balls, or whatever distinctive object that FIRST might put out on the playing field.

Jaine Perotti 25-09-2004 15:17
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dez250
Rule on Non-functional Decorations (including cameras)

"<R57> Any decorations that involve broadcasting a signal to/from the robot, such as remote cameras, must be cleared with FIRST Engineering prior to use. Teams may not use 900 MHz camera systems."
There some people who seem to misunderstand this thread.
The CMUcam does not broadcast a signal to/from the robot. It does not videotape a match. Rather, it can be used to track objects/patterns on the field. Read about it.

Ted Boucher 25-09-2004 16:21
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
We stuck a camera on our robot at Cal Games in 03' and Sacramento in 2004

We didnt have access to the feed though. Sometimes they'd put it up on the big screen when you got an interesting perspective. We had to make sure that it was not on a frequency that conflicted with any field elements, and that it fit size and weight constraints.

If you're asking to put it on there so drivers can view the feed on a monitor and see something that would normally be obstructed from their view, help line up the bot with something, or any other reason to give your team an advantage, the answer is going to be no.
At nationals, we picked team 386 as one of our alliance partners. Their coach wore a hat that had a mini video camera that was zip tided to it. This was used to show their coaches point of view so he would not get in trouble if he made a good call from his point of view, but from the stands looked like a bad call. To get back to the topic, they were able to view this camera form a TV in the stands and recorded it with an attached VCR. They said that FIRST had completely cleared it for that use and it was on a frequency that FIRST did not use. So I think that there is no conflict at all with being able to view or not view the feed from a video camera no matter where it is located.

Cory 25-09-2004 16:43
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Boucher
At nationals, we picked team 386 as one of our alliance partners. Their coach wore a hat that had a mini video camera that was zip tided to it. This was used to show their coaches point of view so he would not get in trouble if he made a good call from his point of view, but from the stands looked like a bad call. To get back to the topic, they were able to view this camera form a TV in the stands and recorded it with an attached VCR. They said that FIRST had completely cleared it for that use and it was on a frequency that FIRST did not use. So I think that there is no conflict at all with being able to view or not view the feed from a video camera no matter where it is located.
My point was that you cannot be viewing the feed from the camera in the driver's stations, since your drivers would have an unfair advantage.

Ted Boucher 25-09-2004 17:02
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
My point was that you cannot be viewing the feed from the camera in the driver's stations, since your drivers would have an unfair advantage.
Is there anything in the rulebook about not being allowed to view a video camera from a screen inside your player station, if there is please tell me. A video camera in this situation is like using a sensor on your robot. Both will give you the same advantage in the end.

Adam Y. 25-09-2004 17:10
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Please post information you know about this sensor's legality, not about the legality of using videocameras on FIRST robots.
Ooo It's not legal. Why would you even ask that question when someone answered before you posted it?
Quote:
I think this camera is not intended to be used in a "real life" situation, it just seems impossible that it could pack that much versatility and power. Tracking a single color blob just won't cut it.
Im not sure someone is attempting to use the CMU sensor to track objects for a competition that takes place in a park. If he can get the sensor to work in the outdoors then it would work during a First competition.

Robot Dude 0101 25-09-2004 17:33
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Does anyone know where to find coding examples for the CMU cam? I have seen some at this site, but I was unable to find more.

Jaine Perotti 25-09-2004 17:49
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Does anyone know where to find coding examples for the CMU cam? I have seen some at this site, but I was unable to find more.
I was able to find this example, but it is written in PBasic, I think. It also has a video of the the robot with this program in it. It isn't terribly exciting, but hopefully it is helpful.

Here is another resource, which I think has examples for Cerebellum and Handyboard processors. I didn't look at all of the examples though, so I hope that all of this is useful.

Good luck!!

<edit> I just found more examples!! 1,2,3,4,5. All written in PBasic for the BS2. </edit>
<edit2>Another one! my advice: Google it. </edit2>
<edit3> here is the user manual for the CMUcam2, the newest version. This will probably help you understand the code better. </edit3>

Robot Dude 0101 25-09-2004 19:32
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Thanks for giving me those links. You are helping me a lot!

Tytus Gerrish 29-09-2004 22:04
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot Dude 0101
Im new to FIRST
Just wondering leonas, What team are you on?

Tytus Gerrish 29-09-2004 22:21
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
ok i just found you're email on our email blast list Leonas, You're deffenatly one of us. The Force is strong with this one. You seem like a Briliant kid Im glad to have you with us.

Rickertsen2 29-09-2004 23:48
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
From the 2004 rules: (these may change for 2005, but probably won't)

If the CMU cam costs under $100, and this doesn't raise your additional electronics cost over $300, and you can buy the part from the above companies...then it looks like you are ok. Try using the flowchart mentioned above to determine if the part is legal. (again, this is by 2004 standards...this MAY be subject to change)
(a little off topic) I have heard that the CMU cam is quite a challenge to program. It has incredible capabilities. Do you know how to program it or have any resources for learning how?? If so, I think it would be a great thread topic to share your knowledge of this sensor. Please tell us!!! (even if we can't use it for FIRST Robotics)
[edit] I just found the website for the CMU cam if any of you are wondering what it is. [/edit]
According to the 2004 flowchart it is legal. According to the rules cited earlier, it is not.

Joe Ross 30-09-2004 09:19
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickertsen2
According to the 2004 flowchart it is legal. According to the rules cited earlier, it is not.
In three seperate cases, the flow chart refers you to the robot section of the manual. The rules posted are in the robot section, and are what disallows its use. The flowchart isn't inconsistant with the rules, it just refers you to them to cover all posibilites (probably so the flowchart doesn't end up taking 10 pages).

Cory 30-09-2004 11:28
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Boucher
Is there anything in the rulebook about not being allowed to view a video camera from a screen inside your player station, if there is please tell me. A video camera in this situation is like using a sensor on your robot. Both will give you the same advantage in the end.
To be honest, I don't have the rulebook memorized anymore, and I'm too lazy to look it up.

There have been questions in the Q&A system before, such as "Can we use headphones to keep in contact with team members up in the stands?" The answer was no, because you were getting an unfair advantage in that they could see all the developing action that is tough to see from the driver station.

Another question was "Can drivers stand on a stool to have a better view of the field?" the answer here was also no.

Keeping in line with those answers, I'd be willing to bet that if you asked if you could have a screen in the driver's station showing the feed from the camera on your robot, the answer is no, for all the reasons I listed above.

Cory

Robot Dude 0101 02-10-2004 21:14
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
To be honest, I don't have the rulebook memorized anymore, and I'm too lazy to look it up.

There have been questions in the Q&A system before, such as "Can we use headphones to keep in contact with team members up in the stands?" The answer was no, because you were getting an unfair advantage in that they could see all the developing action that is tough to see from the driver station.

Another question was "Can drivers stand on a stool to have a better view of the field?" the answer here was also no.

Keeping in line with those answers, I'd be willing to bet that if you asked if you could have a screen in the driver's station showing the feed from the camera on your robot, the answer is no, for all the reasons I listed above.

Cory
The CMUcam isn't a camera that is used to transmit video but rather it gives a digital output so a microcontroller can process the data. It would require a lot of programming to accomplish very little with the CMUcam but it is not a video camera that can wirelessly transmit video like most people here think.

NoodleKnight 08-10-2004 02:30
Re: Is there a restriction to what sensors we can use?
 
I use one of the recent versions of the CMU cam on my personal robot. It be one huge challenge to hook up the CMU camera to the RC. The CMU Camera can wirelessly transmit video, I've gotten it to happen once on my robot, but since I got one of their wierd versions, it didnt work, all because the graphics processor was too fast for the camera or something? Basically the thing captured at 12fps and could grab a lot of fuzzy frames.

Even if you did get it hooked up to interpret data or feed live video:
1. It'd be a hard task.
2. The camera consumes a lot of the small resources that are already given. I use acronames GP Board and Moto Board, and when I try to capture frames the robot has laggy response. But then again, I'm not too sure how fast the RC or OI are...

ahanktcd 11-01-2005 22:43
Re: Cameras At Competition
 
I owned the video stuff Team386 used to do this. If anyone is interested in doing this, here are the links to the products. You can build this system for under $100 and end up with a 4" color TV!
You must get this checked out by a field person before you can use it though. In Atlanta '04 they checked it with an RF meter and said it was fine, as long as the driver doesn't view it.

TV: http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=PCM-4
Camera: http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=203C-50MW-N
P.S. This site has some other neat stuff you may want to browse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Boucher
At nationals, we picked team 386 as one of our alliance partners. Their coach wore a hat that had a mini video camera that was zip tided to it. This was used to show their coaches point of view so he would not get in trouble if he made a good call from his point of view, but from the stands looked like a bad call. To get back to the topic, they were able to view this camera form a TV in the stands and recorded it with an attached VCR. They said that FIRST had completely cleared it for that use and it was on a frequency that FIRST did not use. So I think that there is no conflict at all with being able to view or not view the feed from a video camera no matter where it is located.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:27.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi