Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

The idea that the price increase was necessary and that FIRST is worth it in no way contributes to growing the organization. We can cut costs by eliminating useless kit components and reusing controllers till the cows come home; it would save but a few teams and would have little effect on recruiting more.

What we have here is an egocentric grassroots organization. Each team acting in their own self-interest; very few – you may know the exceptions – working hard toward the common good. What we end up with is a dog-eat-dog existence where the fortunate few align to beat up the rest. Oh there’s the stated ideal of cooperative competition, where we shave points and share parts, but near the end of the day on Saturday we pretty much know who’ll be picking whom. It is, for a large part, scholastic and corporate Darwinism that drives the competition.

Cynical? You bet! Accurate? Not really. I’m sure that most of the sponsors start out with altruistic intentions; I know that the engineers, teachers, parents, and mentors just want to do right by the kids. But as long FIRST continues to grow from the bottom up instead of top down it will soon reach a point where an educator, no matter how dedicated, would have to be nuts to take on teams that survived. It will be then when FIRST gets frozen in time, thereafter to melt slowly away.

So, what the heck does this rant have to do with increasing costs? Everything! The competition cost to the teams should not be going up; it should go down to ZERO. We should not only be out soliciting companies to sponsor our schools, but should also be using our influence on them to sponsor FIRST as a whole. If their intentions are indeed altruistic, then their name and logo on the sponsor board and in the pamphlets will thank them. If the engineers just want to do right by the kids, then instead of two, three, or four of them helping one team, they could share themselves, their facilities, and their resources. (By the way, can you name more than two sponsors of the events? Have you dropped them a line to say how grateful you are?)

I believe that FIRST should come to the epiphany that it cannot continue to exist as it is. However, sudden change would produce sudden chaos, so we would need to evolve a step at a time. A good start would be to recruit enough Regional sponsors so that entry fees go away. Each and every team could then go to at least two, maybe three, which would justify the six weeks of angst they’ve all just endured. A second would be a “mi casa es su casa” approach to the build. That is, replace the exemption of costs when performed by a team member or sponsor with the exemption of costs when performed by any FIRST member or sponsor. That is also, an open door policy toward the community’s teams – kind of like ChiefDelphi.com, but up close and personal.

IMHO, what we really need is a summit, where the movers and shakers in FIRST come together to devise a plan to reorganize toward a utopia where all teams are created as equal as possible and with equal opportunities at the start of each season.

I’ll not hold my breath and turn blue waiting for this to happen. After all, as the Godfather said: “We are not Communists.” What I have done was, and is, to act on my instincts. Last year I lobbied my employer for a considerable chunk of change; we immediately funneled every last cent directly to FIRST regional operations. Our human and material resources went mostly to “our” team, but even then we did our best to share what we had. Seems to me that if enough do likewise we can forego the summit.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

You seem to be describing BEST, where each team pays effectively nothing, perhaps a bit of money for travel costs, and the regional hubs take care of all the money issues. From what I understand, BEST is kind of like a minature FIRST competition, everything is on a smaller scale, and teams return controllers at the end of each season.

I've never done BEST, but I like the idea of FIRST better, provided teams have the money for it, only because with FIRST, you gain a better sense of how the world works, dealing with issues like fundraising, but you also can build much more complex robots, but once again, you need the money.

So, bottom line, as I said last night in this thread (look a few posts up), if you have the money, do FIRST, everyone will have a great time. If you don't have the money, do BEST, inspire some kids, change their lives, you may not have as much fun (or fustration), but you'll at least have made a difference.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Then again, you may have even more fun since you won't be worrying about fundraising and whether or not your team will lose sponsorship or if you'll be able to afford FIRST's latest price increase, etc. Or possibly just because BEST is also a challenging program. Don't knock it till you've tried it, and don't assume FIRST is necessarily better cause it's bigger, more expensive, and more complex. I'm quite certain you can have loads of fun in both BEST and FIRST simply because I know I have.

I'm sorry if that sounds rude or something, but I'm getting slightly annoyed at BEST being panned as FIRST's little brother, the horrible zone that FIRST teams are relegated to when they can't or won't pay to play in FIRST.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

My team is greatly hurt by the increase. After we finished our march comp. last year, we found we were low on funds and needed to cut some expenses, no were out an extra 1K which hurts us greatly, after we get the kit, we'll only have like 2K to do everything (I mean everything)

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

So go find more money. If 2k isn't enough to build a robot, raise more. Consider this raising the bar on the business side of the competition. Yes it takes more work to go and get another $1000, but it can be done.


Wetzel

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Consider for a moment that a team might already be working incredibly hard just to scrape together their current level of funding. Perhaps many teams, I'm not sure as there's disturbingly little in the way of statistics on FIRST teams. Yes, there are additional team grants. A total of 200 of them for teams in need. It is entirely possible that there are more teams in need of these grants than this. Just because your team has had to work fairly hard to raise enough money, don't assume that other teams aren't already working harder than that. And don't assume that rookie teams will be able to handle a 20% price increase for their very first year when they're still working on their basic organization and motivation already.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

This just in, as an email blast from FIRST. It definitely applies to this thread:

------------------------

Hello. This is an important announcement for all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. You may be the only person on your team to receive this message, so please be sure to share it with the rest of your team in a timely manner. If you think that other members of your team would also like to receive these announcements, please encourage them to sign up at http://listserv.leapit.com/cgi-bin/l...join=frcpublic.

If you would like to stop receiving these messages, please see the bottom of this message for instructions.
__________________________________________________ ____

Greetings Teams:

FIRST is pleased to announce that we will be awarding up to 200 "FIRST Team Assistance Grants" in the amount of $1,000 each to qualifying teams.

Please go to http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/grants.htm for full details including application deadline date and how to apply. Don't forget to check out all grant offerings currently available!!

Go Teams!

---------------

Andy B.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I say FIRST is more fun, mostly because from reading the BEST site, and trying to understand what it tries to achieve, FIRST has more in the way of electronics and controls, which is my area, what I consider fun. BEST seems, to me at least, to be about 3 or 4 years behind where FIRST is, control wise, but that's because they simply don't have the need for controls as advanced as we do. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but that's the impression I got from reading BEST's own site.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I hate to burst your bubble, but FIRST isn't just about building the robot, that's what BEST is about. FIRST is about building a robot, yes, but also about everything required, including money and community support, to get that robot built. You can always find more money, sure, it's not the easiest thing in the world to do, but the money is there, you just have to work, perhaps harder than you've ever had to, but it's still there. Rake leaves, do a car wash, bake sales, car raffle, toy sale, krispee kreme sale, auctions, any number of fundraisers will do. Look on the forums, plenty of teams have said they can't find the money, yet they got new ideas for fundraisers, turned around, and made the money and competed. There's even a fundraising forum, a perfect place for any team to ask questions and get new ideas for fundraisers.

So, don't complain about the price increase, or your lack of money. Unless you've tried every fundraiser possible for your team to do, you've worked as hard as you do during build season to get the money, do not complain that your team has no money. FIRST isn't just six and a half weeks over the winter, it's a year long commitment, the question is are you willing to commit all the time to it, or do you just want to build a robot and take the rest of the year off?

Sorry if I sound harsh, I'm just tired of hearing teams complain that there's absolutely no money out there, because I can assure you, if you look hard enough, all the money you need is there, it's just waiting for you to find it.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I can assure you that money isn't out there for everyone. Thankfully, my team isn't one of the ones strapped for cash, but I can easily envision teams that will have more difficulty than you can imagine raising extra funds.

Off the top of my head, there's the teams in Mexico and South America that are dependent on some very very generous sponsors. These teams are basically doomed if their sponsors fold, aren't willing to contribute extra money, or are actually offended enough by a 20% increase in fees (without any input from them or forum for them) to withdraw funding.

There are also teams in rural america. Population and income is rather sparse there, and it isn't a terribly high profile place to donate money. I note that you're in Worcester, MA, so you might be unfamiliar with this fact. This is pretty much ditto for inner-city teams or other teams that reside in economically disadvantaged areas. If there's little enough money in an area, there isn't going to be much forthcoming for a FIRST team. I know it's a negative sort of statement for these forums, but there are communities in this country where people simply can't afford to give much if anything.

Also, kids have school. That tends to take up a large chunk of time. I know the build season already puts a heck of a strain on our students' time, and that's just 8 weeks or so. Full FIRST mode year round could quite possibly kill them.

EDIT: Also, BEST is rapidly moving up in the world of control systems. DSP based programmable controllers are being rolled out and should be standard in a year or two.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

wow with these FIRST grants hopefully some of the teams that are strapped can get a little bit of help to cover the extra $$

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I seriously would like to give major kudos to FIRST. They saw that teams were having a tough time coming up with the extra money, so now they've gone out of their way to try to ease the burden. You know, I love the fact that FIRST has always got your back. :D

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Many teams (like ourselves) are rural, middle america based, and there aren't a lot of corporate sponsors. Our team has won many awards based on our fundraising dynamics, but sometimes a small community can only handle so much. All the businesses in our small rural community get hit by several organizations on a daily basis.

We were actually asked to help write the fundraising guide on the FIRST website because we do so much of it. So fundraising is something that we are all to familiar, and experienced, with.

I still think that rather than looking at solutions to solve the cash flow problem, why don't we focus on the cause. It is very possible to solve the need for price increases at the root of the problems. I am no financial expert, but I am sure that there are numerous ways to prevent, or even decrease, the costs of entry fees.

Imagine the growth of FIRST if the initial Regional entry fee was $3000 or even $3500! It would be phenominal. Now I am speaking for middle america, regular to low income brackets. I like the earlier post about teams coming together to find sponsors to sponsor the regionals so that costs would be less for teams. Or even find sponsors that would fund half or all of the kits (if we even had kits) Just let teams use any motor of a specific type, and teams would be learning to be even more resourceful. Another aspect of being in middle america is having to travel a great distance just to attend a competition----most of our budget is travel (sound familiar?) it is 8 hours to St. Louis, 9 hours to Denver, and 9 hours to Houston. So we have to plan extra nights in hotel, extra gas, and charter buses because our school won't let us use personal vehicles. So if you live close to your regional, be thankful. It is a 4 day trek (or mecca?) to attend a regional---very costly.

Teams numbers are growing. I just think that change comes with growth. Flexibility is also a wonderful trait. But being a part of FIRST is a great experience, the other competitions are also very fulfilling, but if kids have their heart set on FIRST-----then funding shouldn't deny them. I think we all agree that we love doing FIRST and we get very excited just walking thru the pits to see all the ideas that materialized into functional machines.

There are so many creative and brilliant minds out there that build wonderful inventions and machines---surely we can be equally creative and open minded so that we don't deny students the opportunity to participate due to such high prices. Just think about how a student feels during build season and kickoff when their team couldn't pay the price to compete. FIRST is a great experience......every team that wants to participate should have that opportunity, regardless of financial resources.

Grants are great, but very difficult, especially among high competition. Good luck to all the needy teams, may you find some funding to get you there.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

There's also the areas, like Long Island, where I'm from. It's a mix of lower class to middle class, and we have something like 30 teams, but there's not nearly enough companies to sponser that many teams. Long Island is a small area, not quite as small as a city, but not big enough for every team to have their own corporate sponser. My old team got lucky, and our school helped out a lot (took care of most ground transportation, and if we asked nicely, usually covered the initial competition), but otherwise, we never had true corporate sponsors, that would give us all the money we needed. Instead, we had fundraisers, one year we did a car raffle and made $26,000, which was then split in half 50/50 style because we didn't make enough to buy a car and have any left over for ourselves. We did bakesales, car washes, and every other sort of fundraiser, and always managed to have enough for two or three competitions, IF the students paid the majority of their transportation and hotel costs, and I know I worked myself because my parents weren't going to pay all of the money for me to go to Atlanta.

Believe me, my old team has had to find money in all sorts of places, we've actually been in the red during build season before, and had to go run around and get money from whoever we could to repay our teacher, and it's always worked out. As I've said before, FIRST is more than just building a robot, it's running a business, and you have to be able to manage all aspects of it, from getting money to fabricating the robot.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I'll note, again, that Long Island is hardly rural. Brief research reveals that Nassau and Suffolk counties alone have a population of 2.7 million between them. That isn't counting Brooklyn and Queens. We'll assume 10 of your teams are in Suffolk, however. That's a population of 1.4 million in an area of 911 sq. mi. Given 10 teams, that's a base of 140,000 people per team in an area of 91 sq. mi.

Now, apologies to Tonya, but I'm using her as an example. Ponca City has a population of 26,000. Kay county has a population of 48,000 in 911 sq. mi. That is quite a bit of area to cover for a third the amount of people. Not to mention that I'm sure Suffolk county still attracts more corporations than Kay county.

As an aside, I note that it appears the median houshold income around Long Island is about twice that of Ponca City.

So, rural America faces very large hurdles to competing in the FIRST competition. If you had to do a build season in the red and do all this other stuff, I'm sure you can see that it has to be atleast 3 times as hard for Tonya's team.