Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I am interested in finding out how many other teams are almost destroyed by FIRST's latest price increase?

I understand that many components in our kits, competition etc are very expensive. But at this rate, team numbers are going to decrease, as well as rookie team recruitment.

There are several options that could solve these problems. Eliminating most of the kit components (many things end up in trash) If teams had vouchers for their motors, and other necessary components, and if kit inventory lists were released early, teams could gather up the things they want to use--this would require kits to be sent to rookies only maybe. Veteran teams will have vouchers to order the motors they choose to use.

The computers on the robot and control station could also be used for 2 seasons. This would reduce the costs by at least $1000 each year that it was reused. I know that this component is updated every few years, but why not reuse it at least 1 year.

There are many, many other creative ways to cut costs. We just have to be willing to explore these methods with an open mind.

I know that many teams are "super-funded" and a thousand dollars is no big deal. But for many teams, we are already stretched as far as we can go. Another thousand increase for 1st regional and then another thousand for championship ---that is a $2000 increase if a team wants to go to both events. That $1000-2000 dollars was the money for our metal and parts for robot, and some travel money. This is a HUGE problem for many teams now. I would really like other teams that are hurting to respond---without feedback, no one will ever think this is a problem.

What I can see happening is that the "super-funded" teams will be the primary participants at the championship and at a 2nd regional.

The rest of the "budget--challenged" teams will be doing good to attend 1 regional.

I am not trying to offend the "super-funded" teams--I think that is GREAT that you are able to do so many wonderful things, and pave the way as really good examples. So please don't take it that way. I am simply trying to be a voice for teams that are really struggling right now---it seems that maybe no one has heard our pleas for lower fees. My own team is struggling---and I know of many others. Recruiting new teams is almost impossible now---the price tag is just too high for teams that don't have a corporate sponsor with deep pockets.

I have already noticed that enrollment numbers are REALLY low in many regionals. Some have 10 or less teams signed up. I predict that there will be many regionals with less than 25 teams. Another point is that teams may sign up, but until they send in their payment---it isn't a sure thing.

My message to FIRST----you may have priced yourself out of business. This price increase will not only cost many veteran team to quit, or consolidate with nearby teams, but rookie growth will also suffer. I hope that this price increase will be reconsidered soon.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I totally agree with you. As a noob of the FIRST competition, I have seen all over in these boards pretty negitive things about FIRST and the teams as far as how things are going to work. My teal also has a bit if a hard time with money but we are very well-determined people in a society where community service is usual. We've estimated our cost to be around $20,000 dollars which we can cut off by about $12,000 thanks to sponsors that we can get, but $6,000 is still pretty hard to get. I think there should be sponsors for the FIRST programs even, since they can't get enough money and need to overly price us. If they do that, then the overall risk rating of FIRST going bankrupt will decrease. Until they do that (or to get more sponsors if they already have some), in 3-5 years, FIRST is going to be non-existant as far as I hear.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Uh, sorry to inform you but...

a.) we have more local teams than ever, 3 more, plus the vets.
b.) in one day for a car wash we made $600. I don't consider Sparky super funded, but that helped.
c.) If all else fails, you can join BEST (www.bestinc.org). It's free and from what I hear, great.

When it boils down to it, it's not like FIRST is charging us extra so they can fly Dean & Woody around first class more. I've talked to the people IN FIRST and they can say this is needed, and kinda said that last year the prices should have gone up.

And please, FIRST won't go bankrupt. Dean will sell his house before that happens. Or atleast North Dumpling.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

The dark hour is approaching!!!! :p

Seriously though, that is just the nature of this competition....like i said before there is no workshop on maintaining a team....only one for starting a team.

We would be well over 1000 teams now if half of the fallen teams, remained. Unfortunately the emphasis is starting new teams (NASA Grants etc) and there is little to help a veteran team in trouble (ex. 147 - Deep Thunder). Until we have an emphasis on both starting and maintaining teams we are going to see the amount of teams dwindle in certain areas. Florida for example has been on a downward trend of net gain of teams for the last few years. Most likely similar things are happening elsewhere, but I'd have to research nationally to find that out for sure. I only know Florida for fact which is why I reference it.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I know that my old team (992) was unable to do FIRST this year due to the price increase, and is instead doing the MATE underwater robotics competition.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Is FIRST expensive? YES
Is the payoff huge for FIRST participants? YES
The chance to interact with the likes of Dean, Woodie, Dave Lavery, John Abele, Steve Wosniak, ... do I need to continue?
When was the last price increase before this one?
The increase was made public very early so teams could add to fundraising, sponsorship pushes, and grant writing efforts.

If you're having a difficult time finding the 2K have you tried using a flyer like this one?
http://www.cybersonics.org/cybersonics/contribute.asp
Lots of ideas for fundraisers are also all over these boards
Lots of grants out there for after school programs, technology-based learning, NASA programs, etc too...

I do realize the increased fees have had an impact, but it all comes down to how hard your team as a whole is willing to work at it. As for the "super-funded" teams you speak of, you'd be surprised to find out how few of them really exist. Don't be fooled by large corporate names, it doesn't always mean that they are spending huge dollars and the ones who are spending big bucks frequently spread it out over several teams or pump money directly to regional sponsorship.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I believe that the problems that people are having has nothing to do with the increase. The problem is with sponsors. I work in the real world in the field of communications. As the market goes up and down so does our work load. Businesses will spend money if they have it. This last 2 years I have seen a decline in spending and on these boards I have seen posts of teams saying that their sponsors have had to cut back and even some of sponsors going under. This makes raising money a little tougher. There is the point that veteran teams sometimes get lazy when they have some big sponsors. When the money starts to dry up then they have problems finding more. Our team does fairly well. We are probably in the top 1/3 of teams in the way of funding. We are always trying to get new leads and bring in new sponsors. It takes a lot of time and effort but is worth it. The fact that we are Canadian also makes it a bit tougher. That $2000.00 increase that you see is about $2800.00 CDN.

As for FIRST raising prices, I say if they need it to continue to provide the excellent program that they have, then do it. I have seen FIRST trying to reduce costs and I do not believe that there is a lot of wasted money. The staff have been overworked for years as they try to keep staffing to a minimum.

If we must lose some teams then I really feel the loss. I would hope that if there are a few strapped teams, rather than folding, that they would join together an make a single team and share resources. FIRST is too good of a program to leave. I hope that business picks up soon so that the sponsorship money will again begin to trickle in

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

We're out this year! It's our third year and losing the NASA money along with the $1000 increase has done us in. We need about $22,000 to bring a modest size team from Hawaii to a regional. We have to fly so that accounts for over half our budget. We have no option of driving to a regional to save money. $600 car washes don't put much of a dent in $22,000 in bills!!!! It seems a shame to me to be part of the United States and yet the high cost of flying has left us out as orphans from these National competitions. I'm hoping we can save up enough over a two year cycle to still compete but in the meantime we are also entering MATE (underwater robot contest) to keep the interest up. Hope we can make it back...its had a great impact on our students but we may have to look at more affordable models instead.
Aloha,
team 1056
Hilo, HI

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I believe it has.......

I also believe the price structure could be rearranged to promote more growth without loss and probably a likely increase in available funds to FIRST.

$4000.00 - Initial Regional
Promotes growth with lower initial cost
Allows teams to "Catch the FIRST Fever"

$5000.00 - Additional Regionals
You raise extra money for additional competitions
Practice time is costly

$6000.00 - Championships
It's the "CHAMPIONSHIPS"
BIGGER - MORE OF EVERYTHING
FIRST has always said it the most expensive event to hold

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Don I think you almost got it the way I think it should be;
$4000.00 - Initial Regional
Promotes growth with lower initial cost
Allows teams to "Catch the FIRST Fever"

$6000.00 - Additional Regionals <--------------------I would make this 6K
You raise extra money for additional competitions
Practice time is costly

$6000.00 - Championships
It's the "CHAMPIONSHIPS"
BIGGER - MORE OF EVERYTHING
FIRST has always said it the most expensive event to hold

Extra regionals are a luxury. The initial regional should be the lowest on the list (imho)

But we should have all seen this coming when first announced, I will admit I really didn't do the math , I saw an additional $1000, when I should have seen a 20% increase. Next year we need to really make some noises about the pricing structure. This year, smaller budgets.

Eric Stokely

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

maybe its FIRSTs competitive (if you ask me, that means capitalist) nature that causes them not to choose such a pricing scheme. As it stands, teams pay for what they get. A system like that is paramount to welfare with wealthier teams that attend multiple teams paying part of the cost of poorer teams that attend only one regional. I'm not saying I disagree with a pricing scheme like this (I need to think about it some more before making a decision), I just want to point out an effect of that system.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

If your team is really stuck, and has no way to make up the money, considering making a last ditch effort to parents and the community. Where there is a will, there is a way, and there's aboslutely no excuse for any team to completely give up, unless the team simply doesn't care anymore. For teams switching to MATE or BEST, well, they're still trying, they're still inspiring kids to go into science and technology, and that's really what the goal of any of these programs are.

So, you know what, in the long run, does it even matter if you do FIRST, or BEST, or <insert program name here>? You pick what's right for you, and make sure that you motivate at least one high school student to go into science and technology, and you've made a difference, you've accomplished your goal. If you don't have the money for FIRST, rethink your objectives, rework your mission, but do not give up. Think of all the children who's lives you could have changed, just by showing them all of the amazing wonders in the world of science and technology.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Max Lobovsky wrote:
..A system like that is paramount to welfare with wealthier teams that attend multiple teams paying part of the cost of poorer teams that attend only one regional....

I agree sorta, And my first reaction is to not like it. But I see a different welfare with the current system, In effect the One regional only teams are subsidising any team that goes to more than one. Thats backwards at best.

How about Any regional, same price. 5000 or 5500.00 regardless of how many you attend? I would find that easier to accept. I know that doesn't take into account the KOP. Not a perfect solution yet....
Nats could still be 6K It is bigger.

More fuel for discussion.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

YET?? There is no perfect solution. I'm still agast at teams stating they need $20,000 to run a team. We started with $6000 in 2001 and did one competition and the students loved it. We still struggle to raise $10,000 a year - This may be the year we go back to doing one competition. And as far as traveling expenses go, students have to pay, its that simple. They have to pay if they go on a band trip, football camp, etc... Currently 90% of the $$ we raise goes directly to the reg fees, since we have acquired lots of extra materials over the years. Fundraising needs to be creative and parents need to be involved to continue to participate in FIRST. We never had a large corporate sponsor (and thus never lost one), so I guess it's easier for me take...

I agree with those who say to modify the KOP to reduce costs. Rookies (1-2 yr) get them, Vet Teams (> 2 yr) get some vouchers or coupons. Maybe just open up the motor rules entirely - say any 12 VDC motor rated under 300 W (max 6). Let the rookies learn with some different types given in their KOP. Maybe the only identical item every team gets is the InnovationFirst control system. Whatever the solution is, I think it will need to be fairly drastic to seriously reduce costs. I find it hard to respond to parents who ask what the $10,000 in reg fees is going towards. It doesn't go to the regional competitions, and the KOP isn't worth that much! I know that it takes a lot of effort and work by very qualified people to make FIRST run, it's just hard to convince parents of this.

my 2cnts

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Ooh.. that looks VERY interesting..

*keeps tabs on BEST, MATE, and any other robotics program I stumble over..*

Need options in case we don't raise enough to participate in FIRST =\

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

The idea that the price increase was necessary and that FIRST is worth it in no way contributes to growing the organization. We can cut costs by eliminating useless kit components and reusing controllers till the cows come home; it would save but a few teams and would have little effect on recruiting more.

What we have here is an egocentric grassroots organization. Each team acting in their own self-interest; very few – you may know the exceptions – working hard toward the common good. What we end up with is a dog-eat-dog existence where the fortunate few align to beat up the rest. Oh there’s the stated ideal of cooperative competition, where we shave points and share parts, but near the end of the day on Saturday we pretty much know who’ll be picking whom. It is, for a large part, scholastic and corporate Darwinism that drives the competition.

Cynical? You bet! Accurate? Not really. I’m sure that most of the sponsors start out with altruistic intentions; I know that the engineers, teachers, parents, and mentors just want to do right by the kids. But as long FIRST continues to grow from the bottom up instead of top down it will soon reach a point where an educator, no matter how dedicated, would have to be nuts to take on teams that survived. It will be then when FIRST gets frozen in time, thereafter to melt slowly away.

So, what the heck does this rant have to do with increasing costs? Everything! The competition cost to the teams should not be going up; it should go down to ZERO. We should not only be out soliciting companies to sponsor our schools, but should also be using our influence on them to sponsor FIRST as a whole. If their intentions are indeed altruistic, then their name and logo on the sponsor board and in the pamphlets will thank them. If the engineers just want to do right by the kids, then instead of two, three, or four of them helping one team, they could share themselves, their facilities, and their resources. (By the way, can you name more than two sponsors of the events? Have you dropped them a line to say how grateful you are?)

I believe that FIRST should come to the epiphany that it cannot continue to exist as it is. However, sudden change would produce sudden chaos, so we would need to evolve a step at a time. A good start would be to recruit enough Regional sponsors so that entry fees go away. Each and every team could then go to at least two, maybe three, which would justify the six weeks of angst they’ve all just endured. A second would be a “mi casa es su casa” approach to the build. That is, replace the exemption of costs when performed by a team member or sponsor with the exemption of costs when performed by any FIRST member or sponsor. That is also, an open door policy toward the community’s teams – kind of like ChiefDelphi.com, but up close and personal.

IMHO, what we really need is a summit, where the movers and shakers in FIRST come together to devise a plan to reorganize toward a utopia where all teams are created as equal as possible and with equal opportunities at the start of each season.

I’ll not hold my breath and turn blue waiting for this to happen. After all, as the Godfather said: “We are not Communists.” What I have done was, and is, to act on my instincts. Last year I lobbied my employer for a considerable chunk of change; we immediately funneled every last cent directly to FIRST regional operations. Our human and material resources went mostly to “our” team, but even then we did our best to share what we had. Seems to me that if enough do likewise we can forego the summit.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

You seem to be describing BEST, where each team pays effectively nothing, perhaps a bit of money for travel costs, and the regional hubs take care of all the money issues. From what I understand, BEST is kind of like a minature FIRST competition, everything is on a smaller scale, and teams return controllers at the end of each season.

I've never done BEST, but I like the idea of FIRST better, provided teams have the money for it, only because with FIRST, you gain a better sense of how the world works, dealing with issues like fundraising, but you also can build much more complex robots, but once again, you need the money.

So, bottom line, as I said last night in this thread (look a few posts up), if you have the money, do FIRST, everyone will have a great time. If you don't have the money, do BEST, inspire some kids, change their lives, you may not have as much fun (or fustration), but you'll at least have made a difference.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Then again, you may have even more fun since you won't be worrying about fundraising and whether or not your team will lose sponsorship or if you'll be able to afford FIRST's latest price increase, etc. Or possibly just because BEST is also a challenging program. Don't knock it till you've tried it, and don't assume FIRST is necessarily better cause it's bigger, more expensive, and more complex. I'm quite certain you can have loads of fun in both BEST and FIRST simply because I know I have.

I'm sorry if that sounds rude or something, but I'm getting slightly annoyed at BEST being panned as FIRST's little brother, the horrible zone that FIRST teams are relegated to when they can't or won't pay to play in FIRST.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

My team is greatly hurt by the increase. After we finished our march comp. last year, we found we were low on funds and needed to cut some expenses, no were out an extra 1K which hurts us greatly, after we get the kit, we'll only have like 2K to do everything (I mean everything)

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

So go find more money. If 2k isn't enough to build a robot, raise more. Consider this raising the bar on the business side of the competition. Yes it takes more work to go and get another $1000, but it can be done.


Wetzel

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Consider for a moment that a team might already be working incredibly hard just to scrape together their current level of funding. Perhaps many teams, I'm not sure as there's disturbingly little in the way of statistics on FIRST teams. Yes, there are additional team grants. A total of 200 of them for teams in need. It is entirely possible that there are more teams in need of these grants than this. Just because your team has had to work fairly hard to raise enough money, don't assume that other teams aren't already working harder than that. And don't assume that rookie teams will be able to handle a 20% price increase for their very first year when they're still working on their basic organization and motivation already.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

This just in, as an email blast from FIRST. It definitely applies to this thread:

------------------------

Hello. This is an important announcement for all FIRST Robotics Competition teams. You may be the only person on your team to receive this message, so please be sure to share it with the rest of your team in a timely manner. If you think that other members of your team would also like to receive these announcements, please encourage them to sign up at http://listserv.leapit.com/cgi-bin/l...join=frcpublic.

If you would like to stop receiving these messages, please see the bottom of this message for instructions.
__________________________________________________ ____

Greetings Teams:

FIRST is pleased to announce that we will be awarding up to 200 "FIRST Team Assistance Grants" in the amount of $1,000 each to qualifying teams.

Please go to http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/grants.htm for full details including application deadline date and how to apply. Don't forget to check out all grant offerings currently available!!

Go Teams!

---------------

Andy B.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I say FIRST is more fun, mostly because from reading the BEST site, and trying to understand what it tries to achieve, FIRST has more in the way of electronics and controls, which is my area, what I consider fun. BEST seems, to me at least, to be about 3 or 4 years behind where FIRST is, control wise, but that's because they simply don't have the need for controls as advanced as we do. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, but that's the impression I got from reading BEST's own site.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I hate to burst your bubble, but FIRST isn't just about building the robot, that's what BEST is about. FIRST is about building a robot, yes, but also about everything required, including money and community support, to get that robot built. You can always find more money, sure, it's not the easiest thing in the world to do, but the money is there, you just have to work, perhaps harder than you've ever had to, but it's still there. Rake leaves, do a car wash, bake sales, car raffle, toy sale, krispee kreme sale, auctions, any number of fundraisers will do. Look on the forums, plenty of teams have said they can't find the money, yet they got new ideas for fundraisers, turned around, and made the money and competed. There's even a fundraising forum, a perfect place for any team to ask questions and get new ideas for fundraisers.

So, don't complain about the price increase, or your lack of money. Unless you've tried every fundraiser possible for your team to do, you've worked as hard as you do during build season to get the money, do not complain that your team has no money. FIRST isn't just six and a half weeks over the winter, it's a year long commitment, the question is are you willing to commit all the time to it, or do you just want to build a robot and take the rest of the year off?

Sorry if I sound harsh, I'm just tired of hearing teams complain that there's absolutely no money out there, because I can assure you, if you look hard enough, all the money you need is there, it's just waiting for you to find it.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I can assure you that money isn't out there for everyone. Thankfully, my team isn't one of the ones strapped for cash, but I can easily envision teams that will have more difficulty than you can imagine raising extra funds.

Off the top of my head, there's the teams in Mexico and South America that are dependent on some very very generous sponsors. These teams are basically doomed if their sponsors fold, aren't willing to contribute extra money, or are actually offended enough by a 20% increase in fees (without any input from them or forum for them) to withdraw funding.

There are also teams in rural america. Population and income is rather sparse there, and it isn't a terribly high profile place to donate money. I note that you're in Worcester, MA, so you might be unfamiliar with this fact. This is pretty much ditto for inner-city teams or other teams that reside in economically disadvantaged areas. If there's little enough money in an area, there isn't going to be much forthcoming for a FIRST team. I know it's a negative sort of statement for these forums, but there are communities in this country where people simply can't afford to give much if anything.

Also, kids have school. That tends to take up a large chunk of time. I know the build season already puts a heck of a strain on our students' time, and that's just 8 weeks or so. Full FIRST mode year round could quite possibly kill them.

EDIT: Also, BEST is rapidly moving up in the world of control systems. DSP based programmable controllers are being rolled out and should be standard in a year or two.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

wow with these FIRST grants hopefully some of the teams that are strapped can get a little bit of help to cover the extra $$

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I seriously would like to give major kudos to FIRST. They saw that teams were having a tough time coming up with the extra money, so now they've gone out of their way to try to ease the burden. You know, I love the fact that FIRST has always got your back. :D

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Many teams (like ourselves) are rural, middle america based, and there aren't a lot of corporate sponsors. Our team has won many awards based on our fundraising dynamics, but sometimes a small community can only handle so much. All the businesses in our small rural community get hit by several organizations on a daily basis.

We were actually asked to help write the fundraising guide on the FIRST website because we do so much of it. So fundraising is something that we are all to familiar, and experienced, with.

I still think that rather than looking at solutions to solve the cash flow problem, why don't we focus on the cause. It is very possible to solve the need for price increases at the root of the problems. I am no financial expert, but I am sure that there are numerous ways to prevent, or even decrease, the costs of entry fees.

Imagine the growth of FIRST if the initial Regional entry fee was $3000 or even $3500! It would be phenominal. Now I am speaking for middle america, regular to low income brackets. I like the earlier post about teams coming together to find sponsors to sponsor the regionals so that costs would be less for teams. Or even find sponsors that would fund half or all of the kits (if we even had kits) Just let teams use any motor of a specific type, and teams would be learning to be even more resourceful. Another aspect of being in middle america is having to travel a great distance just to attend a competition----most of our budget is travel (sound familiar?) it is 8 hours to St. Louis, 9 hours to Denver, and 9 hours to Houston. So we have to plan extra nights in hotel, extra gas, and charter buses because our school won't let us use personal vehicles. So if you live close to your regional, be thankful. It is a 4 day trek (or mecca?) to attend a regional---very costly.

Teams numbers are growing. I just think that change comes with growth. Flexibility is also a wonderful trait. But being a part of FIRST is a great experience, the other competitions are also very fulfilling, but if kids have their heart set on FIRST-----then funding shouldn't deny them. I think we all agree that we love doing FIRST and we get very excited just walking thru the pits to see all the ideas that materialized into functional machines.

There are so many creative and brilliant minds out there that build wonderful inventions and machines---surely we can be equally creative and open minded so that we don't deny students the opportunity to participate due to such high prices. Just think about how a student feels during build season and kickoff when their team couldn't pay the price to compete. FIRST is a great experience......every team that wants to participate should have that opportunity, regardless of financial resources.

Grants are great, but very difficult, especially among high competition. Good luck to all the needy teams, may you find some funding to get you there.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

There's also the areas, like Long Island, where I'm from. It's a mix of lower class to middle class, and we have something like 30 teams, but there's not nearly enough companies to sponser that many teams. Long Island is a small area, not quite as small as a city, but not big enough for every team to have their own corporate sponser. My old team got lucky, and our school helped out a lot (took care of most ground transportation, and if we asked nicely, usually covered the initial competition), but otherwise, we never had true corporate sponsors, that would give us all the money we needed. Instead, we had fundraisers, one year we did a car raffle and made $26,000, which was then split in half 50/50 style because we didn't make enough to buy a car and have any left over for ourselves. We did bakesales, car washes, and every other sort of fundraiser, and always managed to have enough for two or three competitions, IF the students paid the majority of their transportation and hotel costs, and I know I worked myself because my parents weren't going to pay all of the money for me to go to Atlanta.

Believe me, my old team has had to find money in all sorts of places, we've actually been in the red during build season before, and had to go run around and get money from whoever we could to repay our teacher, and it's always worked out. As I've said before, FIRST is more than just building a robot, it's running a business, and you have to be able to manage all aspects of it, from getting money to fabricating the robot.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I'll note, again, that Long Island is hardly rural. Brief research reveals that Nassau and Suffolk counties alone have a population of 2.7 million between them. That isn't counting Brooklyn and Queens. We'll assume 10 of your teams are in Suffolk, however. That's a population of 1.4 million in an area of 911 sq. mi. Given 10 teams, that's a base of 140,000 people per team in an area of 91 sq. mi.

Now, apologies to Tonya, but I'm using her as an example. Ponca City has a population of 26,000. Kay county has a population of 48,000 in 911 sq. mi. That is quite a bit of area to cover for a third the amount of people. Not to mention that I'm sure Suffolk county still attracts more corporations than Kay county.

As an aside, I note that it appears the median houshold income around Long Island is about twice that of Ponca City.

So, rural America faces very large hurdles to competing in the FIRST competition. If you had to do a build season in the red and do all this other stuff, I'm sure you can see that it has to be atleast 3 times as hard for Tonya's team.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Here is where the mainland teams don't get it....to fly from Hawaii to the nearest regional on the west coast cost almost $600 (when I find a bargain). That's an expense that is non-negotiable...we cannot take a bus, train, rental car if we don't like it. I was upset at our regional last year when a team from a few states over was touted as miracle participant because it had to raise $10,000 to get there. What, they couldn't find a bus?? That wouldn't even cover my airfare! Add in hotel, rental car, shipping (wow, FedEx won't even ship from my Island for free) my students would have to come up with almost $1400 per student to participate. With over half classified as living in poverty I can't ask them to pay much or I lose them or select the elite few who have money. We've been very fortunate the last few years because of major sponsors but even at that we were walking a fine line. After a major sponsor pulled last year after verbally committing to us we found ourselves, me, in debt for $4000. Looking at $6000 more by December just to enter was too big of a mountain. It just saddens me because we have a great system going..committed teachers, students willing to learn and work hard, great engineer and community support but we can't sustain the $20,000 per year costs so our students miss out. I won't say lose out because we are still doing other less expensive competitions but I wish our students could see the "superbowl" of engineering that FIRST is, I know I could turn more of them on to engineering and technology.
Oh well, as someone once told me..stop complaining..even if things look bleak and we never get to go back to FIRST, look where we live! Hawaii no ka oi.
Aloha,

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I think one of the main reasons the original seven(?) have survived so long is solid sponsorship.
What also helps is proximity to competiton. It is easiest to see an explosion of rookie teams where there are local regionals (such as Finger Lakes this year) because they don't have to play for traveling or lodging and such. Just the competition. Teams off the mainland are in dire straits and unless there is significant industry around or government support they really struggle to get by.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Two things to (hopefully) be of help.

1) FIRST announced grants today for $1000 to new or veteran teams. Your primary contact should have the details, but the basics are you have to apply for the grant, and you have to use it as part of your entry fee for 1 regional. You can only be going to one regional - and not the championships.
The focus seems to be on struggling teams and I think it is a great move by FIRST.

2) Everyone on Team 234 is expected to find a $250 sponsor. Some find more than one, some can't get any, but most are able. This does several things - it gets all students out talking about and promoting the program and explaining what it is, it introduces many new people to FIRST, it gets additional 'ownership' in the team because everyone has done something extra to help with funding, and, it helps finance the team. Sponsors get their names on our T-shirts or on plaques, depending on what we do each season. In the fall, everyone who supported us gets a wall certificate, team photo or something else as out Thank You to display. Four small sponsors like this covers the $1000 increase in the entry fee. It is also kinda cool to go into a local business and see a team picture on the wall !

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

During my time on team 45, 1998 -2002, every year we went to regionals for a small ($50-100/ regional, someone will correct me if I'm wrong) fee, and we paid half of our cost for nationals, normally about 300-400. All of this could be covered out of pocket or through many fundraising opportunities through out the year. Much of the rest of the cost was from our sponsor, which is Delphi, or additional fundraising done beyond our need.

So my question is how do other teams handle this cost?

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Then look to Grundy for inspiration. I don't know the entire story, there are others on here who know it much better then I, but they are your rural America. Grundy is in southwest Virginia, old coal mining county where the mines are closing and people leaving. Not a lot of money there, but Grundy pulls it off.

Another favorite FIRST memory of mine is from Nationals in 2000. One team had their sponsors listed on the back of their shirts. All of them, in about a 15 point font took up the entire vertical length of the shirt. Including Linda's Lingerie Shop (actual name forgotten, but something like that).

You may have to look in some unconventional places, but there is money to be found.


Wetzel

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Not for all of them...

Team 20 has been through quite a few sponsors.
In their case, the reason they survived is the INCREDIBLE dedication of one teacher, and a few community volunteer engineers.

If you're willing to work for something. You can do anything.


Kudos to Paul Kane.
13 years down, and still going strong.

John

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Your numbers are probably skewed. I really doubt that the population of Long Island is that evenly distrubuted. In fact it can't be. The majority of people probably reside closer to Nassau than Suffolk.
That mainly relates to the fact that everything in Long Island is twice as expensive as it is in Ponca City. It's proximity to the city makes it the prime place for every single bussiness to rip everyone off. Also the only major company (Lockhead Martin??) on Long Island is sponsoring all of the teams last I knew.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

the entrance fee isn't the problem for us.... microsoft have generously given us the entree fee for the last 3 years... however, the cost is going up every year. In 2 years we will probably not compete as each person will have to pay and extra £150 (~$270) for visa's . When your taking about 30 people with £150 each thats an extra £4500 pounds (which is more than the entry fee . . . . . (~$8,140)) so we will most likely not compete then (unless they host a regional here in europe / uk)

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I can see where that would be problem. What you could do is work to create enough teams in Hawaii that there is a base for a Hawaii regional. :> Then maybe convince some well funded teams to attend rather then going to Nationals or somewhere else that involves travel.

I for one would volunteer at that regional.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

My grandparents are looking to go back to Oahu for a reunion this fall and found $350 round trip tickets on Continental. From the east coast.

If you could cut airfare almost in half, would you bring some aloha way east? :)

(As an aside, the team from Mililani , where I happened to do some growing, traded me a pineapple for a some Krispy Kremes. That was the best ever.)

Wetzel

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Using the cheapest tickets i can find currently, its going ot cost us $325 each way (so thats $650 per student) (using cheapest flights, but excluding group discount)
using our estimate of £850 / person ,( thats $1,500 ) without the sponsorship. Currently we are looking at £350-400 ($630-725)a person if we raise the expected amount and take into account everything we can think of ... if only the airline would sponsor us . . .

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

You're correct, the population isn't that evenly distributed. Suffolk county is less densely populated than Nassau. It has 1.3 million people in just 287 sq. mi. So a team would only have to cover 28.7 sq. mi. instead of 90 something. Also, a $70K salary in Suffolk is about equivalent to a $40K salary in a Ponca City kinda of area. (Suffolk, NY --> Altus, OK via salary.com) So people in Suffolk are making about 33% more than those in Ponca City, relatively.

Also, I am well aware that FIRST has many success stories among rural and inner-city teams. An important point to remember if that we mostly hear just from the success stories. We hear from the Ponca City and Grundy teams that work their tails off each year to get enough funding to compete and succeed at it. We don't typically hear from teams that can't raise enough funds or the teams that aren't formed at all because there isn't $10K of funding in their area.

Finally, to those of you that have team members pay for travel expenses, fundraise, etc, if that's what it takes for your team to make it and your team is okay with that, then that's great. My team thinks that our purpose is to inspire the students and community to be interested in science and engineering. We don't think that sending students door to door to raise funding is a good way to do this, nor is it conducive to our students schoolwork. Our main sponsor is very interested in the welfare of our students, and would actually be upset if we had then doing major amounts of fundraising or if they had to pay their way to a competition. That's our philosophy, and that's where my arguments are coming from.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

This is getting REALLY ugly now guys, I think we might need Lavery to comment on this or some other FIRST official.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

And for the last time I'll say this: FIRST does stand for "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology." However, integral parts of science and technology are finding funding to pursue science and technology, that's part of the competition, part of preparing high school students for what the real world will be like. Rarely do you just get all the money and resources you need to accomplish a project. Due to this, my former team, rather unknowingly, began to work in fundraising as a major portion for thte club, and I know it's definitely given me, and many of the other students on the team, and much better view of how the world works.

Bottom line, if you're willing to rely on your one main sponsor, that's great, but what happens when they fold? What happens when that main sponsor is gone? Will your team still be around, because students have been going to every single business in town, asking for small donations? As Jeff said, there are some teams that get their money from every store in town, a little bit from each one, and have a sponsors list that can barely fit on the back of a shirt! If they can get the money they need by going, effectively, door to door, and then go and build a robot, I think the kids on that team are doing amazing, and sure, it's probably not conducive to their schoolwork, but it'll definitely help them gain a broader understanding of how the world works, and honestly, I find that a lot more important than knowing something like L'Hopitals Rule.

Discussion is good
 

I don't see it getting ugly. There is no name calling or flaming. There is two different viewpoints, and even understanding that they do it differently, "if that's what it takes for your team to make it and your team is okay with that, then that's great"


One is that FIRST students shouldn't have to spend a lot of time fundraising. They don't see going door-to-door to fundraise, or coming up with money from their own pocket is not a good way to get students and the community excited in science and technology and takes away from homework time.

Another is that FIRST is not just a robot building competition and that it is also a business competition to follow the 'real world'. Research\project funding can be hard to come by, and this is a taste of what is to come and preparation for it.


Wetzel

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

I think this is healthy discussion.

It is important for young people to discover cost of living per capita, and this discussion is making us think about all aspects. This discussion is also demonstrating that FIRST is about a lot more than just building a robot---team dynamics are complex and students must learn how to solve problems of all types.

Just remember that it isn't supposed to be personal attacks.....

My hopes (and purpose) of starting this discussion is that innovative solutions can be presented, and that various aspects of team finances can be learned.

In other words, walk a mile in another person's financial shoes. The main theme of these discussions is that many teams are not able to participate due to high costs. One of the main focal points of FIRST is to target minority groups---many minority groups are found in impoverished areas that can't afford these high entry fees.

FIRST is a great program that builds great kids! Keep up the healthy portions of solving problems, and we will all benefit!

80 days till kick off!

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Just like electricity, everyone involved with fundraising takes the path of least resistance. If a major sponsor is available who is willing to take care of the whole bill, that's what the fundraising team will do. If the fundraising team needs to go door-to-door collecting funds that's what they will do.

No one chooses the path that's most difficult. Often times it has to do with a poor economy in their area or a lack of major sponsors in their area.

It doesn't make a team better if they have just one sponsor or if they have 100 sponsors. However, you should commend a team who struggled to pay the bill with a list of sponsors one hundred long for showing their strength, perseverance and love for participating in the FIRST robotics program.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Tonya - I knew I shouldn't have shown you how to post on Delphi!

Anyway I agree - Foremost to me is for all to remember that FIRST is not really located in Manchester NH but with each student and mentor involved. It is only through us that it exists. Dean's vision of this taking place in every school in the nation simply cannot be met using the current system. FIRST is about changing the norm - well let's change the norm within FIRST. Why should we choose to exclude teams based on finances. We should be looking at ways to include every school in the nation. The cost structure as it is now will keep schools away.
I believe we need to
1. Do a better job of retaining teams. Successful teams will spur the growth - if we don't take care of what we have, it will be increasing hard to recruit new teams. Kevin - do you have this stat? BTW thanks for mentioning good ol PC right here in the heart of God's Country.
2. Can we deliver a similar product with less cost? Are there opportunities to actually lower the rates we charge teams. Think of some Innovative ways we may lower costs and maintain a quality product.
3. We need to focus more on teaching and mentoring vs. the money aspect of FIRST - I believe everyone should pay their way but it takes a full year to raise funds to travel. This leaves little time to actually fulfill our mission. I spent more time last year fund raising than mentoring - SAD- This year we made a decision we weren't going to do that. True, money is part of life and business but should not overshadow the opportunity to teach and learn. This aspect makes it hard to convince new sponsors why they should invest their money in this very expensive undertaking. They feel they can't get the bang for the buck they should. WE also lose about 5 to 10 new team members every year due to the time commitments that is required, I'd rather keep these kids if possible to lower costs.

Anyway love the thoughts and ideas posted here - good stimulating conversation is never a bad thing - it is only when ideas are not exchanged and discussed that people get their feelings hurt or feel left out.

In response to rural vs. metropolitan teams - in some ways we have it better than the larger cities. We receive tremendous support from our community. I hear sometimes the larger city teams have a more difficult time getting sponsors and donations or in-kind work. So yes I do feel blessed to be here in the heartland of America. But I do not enjoy the long drive to Houston (10 hours driving with a bunch of High school students listening to their music AAAAAAH!) but love the folks - for anyone who has never been to the Lone Star Regional it is a must attend - best atmosphere in FIRST.

Ken York
476
Tor Mentor :)

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Ken,

Great thoughts here. I especially love the attention to "taking care of what we have" as a priority. I've been beating that drum for awhile myself.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

As commanded, I return with some statistics. I only have team lists for 2002, 2003, and 2004, so that limits my data somewhat. and I was too lazy to get extended data on the '02 and '03 seasons.

Team retention:
'02-'03: 89.5% of teams returning
'03-'04: 89.0% of teams returning

2004 Misc stats:

238 teams attending 2 regionals
20 teams attending 3 regionals
1 team attending 4 regionals

23 rookie teams attending 2 regionals

292 teams attending the championships
24 rookies attending the championships
131 teams attending multiple regionals and the championships
9 rookies attending multiple regionals and the championships


Notes: The "team" counts above are including rookies. Also, the retention numbers are teams that retained their name from the previous year. Teams that changed numbers for whatever reason are not counted.

A mess of mostly useless stats there, since I was sorta asked. Analyze as you wish, but you can atleast throw your fee schedules at them and see what turns up.

Re: Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams
 

Thanks Kevin
I appreciate your taking the torch.
Pretty good retention overall.
Go Cardinals