Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Video..

And let's just make this a Y.M.T.C. scenario for laughs.

http://www.team237.com/videos/finals_nj.wmv
Warning - (19.8mb)


As you can see, the 375 robot hit the center goal as the announcer says 21 seconds remaining, and yet..
The blue light in their players station (far left blue side) is still activated in turn making it a team fault, and not making it a field error by any means.

This is why some people are very upset. So, try and be understanding and not just sweep this incident under the rug as a alliance of sore losers...

Thanks.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Well first, 237's hit on 103 should have gotten them disqualified because they clearly hit 103 *very* high...

And they may have ran into the center goal due to the loss of control. Through out the day, they did not have that type of driving (turning and almost flipping, running into goals, and if you look, its almost a coast into the center goal, not a drive) Just my observations from actually being at the regional as well as watching that video.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Do you recall what happened in the next match? 2 of our alliances teams were tipped as well.. Video coming soon. (cause I knew someone was gonna comment on that)

Explain the blue light not flashing then in their alliance station?

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

In reply to us not moving the last match. The release valve was left open and we were pretty much stuck in neutral. It sucks yes, nothing can change from it, and trust us, most of us on 303 feel terrible about it. All i can say is that, all who competed deserved to win, i give full congrats to the winning alliance.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Indeed everything stated above is true...375 hits the center goal and stops moving...yet their light remains lit.

From this it would be assumed that this was a team fault, unless they were disabled for some reason that was not legit. It is a tough call to make.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Ok guys, this has gone on far enough. The moderators, were kind enough to open the forum back up to allow Elgin to post his video in the hopes that this would straighten things out. Bun instead it has just lead to more sqwabbling. This isn't what FIRST is all about. Why is it that when a robot breaks down in competition the other allaince will take their time out to give the broken robot a chance to get back in the thick of things without a second thought? But here we are just going around in circles and pointing fingers.

Last year at Palmetto the winning allaince team 11, 122, and 281 were faced with this decision. A robot of the other allaince needed repair and they took their time out, when the time out expired the robot was still not working so the other allaince took their time out to help out the broken allaince. Then when there was confusion about robot placement 11,281, and 122 were faced with the choice of either going 2 on 1 with the legal robot or, in the spirit of FIRST allow the "illegal robot" to compete. What happened? IN THE SPIRIT OF FIRST that allaince let the "illegal robot" to compete, knowing full well that their decision could cost them the regional.

HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HAPPENED IN NJ? That allaince did what they did for the love of FIRST and they wanted to see the best match possible. If a robot said they were having communitcation errors, than that is FIRST's fault and they should be allowed to compete to the best of their abilities, the refs recognized this and made their call.

Let's let this be the end of this. Put this behind us and get on with our lives. No amount of finger pointing or name calling or any of that will reverse what has happened.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

That is one indicator that they were not disabled. However, those lights are new and malfunction frequently. At Pitt, the red ones just stopped working on Sat.

The best indicator that they could not have been disabled is the blue LEDs on their bot were still flashing. The LEDs go solid when the bot is disabled (just watch 237's solid red LEDs while they are loading). However, the pattern of flashing seemed to change, it is hard to tell b/c the camera moves (makes it hard to focus on it and it lowers the encoding quality). This might indicate a loss of signal. The operators should notice a flashing No Data/Radio LED on the OI if that happened. It is always good to train your operators on the control systems so they can tell the electrical team what happened.

So in summary, they were not disabled, but they might have lost signal.

Hope this clears things up and cools down the arguement.

EDIT: Sorry I was posting when the announcement ^^ came out

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

that is a good point never thought about the LED lights its hard to tell if the pattern changes, and i dont believe their was a problem with the lights at the operating station just the numbers when it came time for semi finals and finals kinda weird but we delt with that

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

We should really just stop arguing about how things went down. Bound Brook should know how thankful we are for all the help they've given us, especially last year when we got to use their practice field. The calls weren't ours to make, but the games were finished fairly, even though many robots, including our own, were tipped. That's just how the game goes.

I'm kind of worried that some are complaining that we didn't deserve to win, but my team mates put in so many hours building the robot every single night at our only mentor's house. We didn't have a single engineer and no real sponsorship. We raised all the money ourselves and the only help we got was from a student's father who took time off his construction business to encourage us.

After Trenton I was just so proud of all the teams, no matter if they came in last or anything, we all worked hard and everyone did fantastic. Anyone who attended Trenton, we can't wait to see you at Nationals if we can manage to raise the $5000 by then. We're running out of sources for sponsorship.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

we all can make remarks about bad reffing but in the end everyone got a fair share of both

however some of the finals were a little crazy
but i rather liked it that way

i mean sure we got hit really hard and it ended up making us unable to move our arm for the next 2 rounds
but that enabled us to experiment with the pushing capabilities of our robot

the refs did their best and everyone has a right to complain but that will do nothing to change what happened THEN

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Alright, as an old 237 member I do agree with what 237 claims. The alliance of 303, 56, and 237 are the winners of the New Jersey Regional of 2005. I have also seen the video which shows 237 clearly winning this competition. It seems the opposition had some mis fortune and I recommend looking into the FIRST Robotics Competition Manual for a ruling.

It is not fair to take away a win from those who deserve it. That call has nothing to do with gracious professionalism. That one small call cost 237, 56, and 303 a 1st place.

If 375, 1279, and 103 wants to be considered for gracious professionalism, they should give up the 1st place award and graciously take 2nd. My opinion!

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Unfortunately this is not their decision to make.

I'm rather disappointed myself at what happened during the competition. I certainly feel bad that it had to come down to this, and I feel bad for the teams that feel they were slighted because of bad calls. We know that these bad calls were made in abundance throughout the qualifying rounds, but to have it happen while everyone was watching in the finals really demonstrates why officials should be better trained before they are made in charge of such a task. I'm not saying that I don't value their work, I just think that some were ill-equipped for the jobs they were given.

What bothers me more, however, is that we're more concerned about winning the competition than we are about the FIRST experience as a whole. Sure, not having it happen to our team makes it a lot easier for me to say, but I know that our team was esctatic about the regional (minus the little outdoor excursion at the end) and all we walked away with was 25 bronze medals, a headful of ideas, and a renewed energy that will carry us to our next competition.

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't be bitter about the outcome -- what I AM saying is that, in my own opinion, you will need to look beyond this before it becomes too destructive for you to take back.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

That call has everything to do with gracious professionalism. In the second match which was redone, 1279 and 103 are on their back due to being flipped. 103 is hit high, as can be seen at 1:44, by 237 who drives over to it for that purpose. I'm sorry if I sound un GP, but how did our alliance not deserve the win? Two robots flipped and one disabled, and the match was supposedly clean? 103, 375, and ourselves worked very hard all season to get where we are, and then we go into a match where we're told we will lose, but don't, and now we're told we should lose anyway because what people expected and a call that's final and done with.

We have to stop arguing about what should have or will happen, and focus on something like the rest of the season. I know 56 is going to Philadelphia this weekend, so good luck to them and anyone else who is attending! I know they can do it.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

In my heart right now, are the true winners. Enough said. The answers lie with FIRST right now. 303, 56, and 237 are the champs! For words of wisdom, watch out for these guys in Atlanta.

Re: New Jersey Regional 2005
 

Ok, I really do not want to join in this fight, but I feel a responsibility now to throw in my two cents because this is starting to get out of hand.

One of the first things I learned when I joined robotics was that members of our team were to accept the outcomes of matches and the decisions of referees gracefully. It would not be acceptable for a team member to scream, blame, or otherwise hurt other people over a loss or a bad call. The aim of this expectation was not to tell people that it wasn't ok to be upset. Instead, this expectation was meant to prevent bad feelings from getting out of control and hurting people. With that said, I think that it is time for everyone to move on. Step back, take a deep breath, and remember that this is only a game. Do you want FIRSTers to be known as being no better than soccer moms screaming at the referees unnecessarily from the sidelines? Do we want to continue to be divided over "who should have won" and continue to hurt those who were involved?

We all experience big disappointments in life, and life is never totally fair. Same goes for what happens in FIRST. There is nothing we can do to change what happened, and I feel that pointing fingers and venting frustration is not helping ANYONE here. Sure it is ok to be upset after your team loses. Sure it is ok to be frustrated when a ref makes a mistake. But you know what...? It is NOT ok to post hurtful things in a public forum, where people from both sides - winning and losing - are able to read about what happened. It is extraordinarily upsetting, and it does nothing but fire up people's tempers. It does not help us to MOVE ON.

I don't want to pick on anyone in particular, but the post that I have quoted above really makes me feel upset. To tell teams that they are not "graciously professional" and that they should give up their win because of factors not even in their control is crossing the line for me. Again, I want to remind everyone that while it is disappointing, it is NOT OK to gripe over something as trivial as a regional win. Yes, you heard me - trivial. Step back for a moment, and think about what FIRST means to you. Is it really all about the "winning" and "losing"? If so, I think that you need to re-examine what the whole experience means to you. Because FIRST is not just a robotics competition, nor is it about "winning" and "losing"... the name of the organization speaks for itself. For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. Are we inspiring anyone here by saying hurtful things and arguing about something that we cannot change? No, we are discouraging. Are we spreading a good message about science and technology, or are we making people divide into factions... therefore retarding the promotion of science and technology to young people?

I apologize for this rant, but I felt that I needed to tell everyone to just CALM DOWN, take a deep breath, and move on. Reflect about the positive experiences that you have had this year, and focus on the good things that have happened. Think about your audience before you post. Put yourself in the shoes of the people involved. Whatever it takes for you to put this experience behind you - don't speak, write, or act in a way that will ruin the experience for other people, because FIRST is not about discouragement. Encourage and inspire, and you will be fulfilling the real intention of this competition.

I am done now,

-- Jaine

Oh, and if I were a mod, I think I would close this thread in a hurry, if things don't start to improve real fast.