Mill Suggestions?
 

We have $2500 dollars. We have:

1. Drill Press (circa '54)
2. Bandsaw (cuts lines about as straight and narrow as a profoundly parkinsonian rhesus monkey with an amphetamine habit and cataracts like jelly beans) (circa '54)
3. Tablesaw, (Takes 5 minutes to start up. If you give it a push. On warm days) (circa '54... 1854) ;)
4. Assorted hand tools

We'd like to buy a mill. Any Suggestions in our price range?

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

buy a healthy monkey and blow the rest on candy

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^lol^

We bought this one last year and we're very happy with it.

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How much did that cost swampdude? That looks sweet!

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I would suggest that you call around to any local machine shops and see if they have any old machines they're planning on getting rid of that they could give to you/sell to you for a discount.

You can find some pretty good prices on used mills, but ya gotta have someone that knows what to look for inspect them to see if they're any good.

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yeah if you look in the papers there might be listings of machinesfor sale. If you live in an area where there are machine shops odds are one is selling somthing.

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I'm pretty sure we paid what they're advertising on the page there. $2695 + $200 shipping. It took about 4 weeks for delivery. Assembled pretty easy, we needed an engine hoist to get it setup. Compared to the cheaper ones out there, this one seemed much more solid. We did have an electrical problem with the capacitors blowing on the motors. But I think that was our wiring deficiencies in the building not sending enough current for the starters to work properly. It's got some nice features and a lot of capability. We also bought a lot of little extras to go with it. But it comes with most of what you need. If you need extras go to enco instead.

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If you are looking at a mill/lathe/drill press combo... dont get a Smithy!

We have one in our PLTW class and the thing is really horrible. You turn the handle and get no movement but then it just jumps like .5". Maybe this is just ours, but i would never buy one after seeing the one in our class.

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Similar to the other one posted, late last year we bought a Smithy Granite 1324 and we are very happy with it so far. Its great for small to medium pieces, and Smithy is the top name in 3-in-1 machines.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

THATS THE ONE!!

It may be treating you well now.. but oh you just wait. In 2 years you wont even be able to cut a straight line.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

To optimize your effiecency for your dollars....buy a combo machine...


for about 500+ you can get a very decent mill/lathe/drill press combo ANYWHERE...however i would invest heavily in a digital readout for your mill and lathe operations...since these machines are not intended for heavy industry use, the handles and dials arent quite "perfect" so to make your machine the best it can be, i would seriously get a DRO...

a setup like that might run you about a grand... and use the other 1500 dollars for accessories; aka collets, endmills, center-drills, chucks, and other various gadgets.

one more resource you ought to find useful is Harbor Freight, they specialize in overstock machines. you can get a good drill press and band saw for about 200+ bucks.


good luck

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

Pssss.. You spelled Freight wrong.:) It's not the right site.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

I would be very hesitant to get a 3 in 1 combo machine. They seem to be nothing but trouble. It’s true that they take up less space than it would for all 3 separate machines, but they have some significant drawbacks. As soon as a team gets a mill their tolerances fall. It seems to me that teams who have to do everything with hand drills don’t care about anything much smaller than 0.01", but ever since GRT (192) got a mill we've always wanted to do stuff one step beyond what our machines could handle. So, it seems that mills are like everything else... Buy one slightly better than anything that you think you will ever need and you'll grow into it, and really be glad you spent the little extra bit of cash initially rather than having to buy a whole new machine later.... Also, be wary of what will fit in smaller machines...

Here are some mills that I would suggest.....
As was suggested before, get a phonebook and call all the local machine shops. It’s a lot easier to move one of these beasts across town than across the country...
Another place to look, believe it or not is eBay... Most mills on there are already equipped with dro and cutters/collets and some even have servo control. As someone said before, MAKE SURE TO GET IT INSPECTED BEFORE YOU FORK OVER $3,000

Alright, I’m done... (Finally, I know...)

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

The nice quality machine are Bridgeport, but they are large and costly. I'm not sure exactly what size machine you are looking for. I would stay away from a Mill/Drill or combo machine because most of them don't have a fine Z axis feed.

If you do decide to get a mill/drill, this one is super cheap http://www.homier.com/default.asp?dp...tail&sku=03989 You might also want to search that site for "mill" to see the other selections.

Harbor Freight does have some selections but EVERYTHING that company sells is notorious for being super-low quality, having lots of slop, and being prone to failure. Most people don't care though because it is ultra low price.

I have a Harbor Freight drill press and the chuck wobbles slightly and it doesn't open and close very easy anymore but it is a nice little drill press for $40.

You also might look at this site if you are interested in a small machine http://www.mini-lathe.com/Mini_mill/Main/mini-mill.htm

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This is one of those wonderful "how long do you have to listen to the answer"-type questions. To get a real, full answer, will take quite a while. But let's start in on the top-level items, and see how far we can get.

First off, look at your budget. One of the fundamental truths associated with buying any machine tool (mill, lathe, shaper, surface grinder, etc.) is that the associated tooling will cost as much - if not more - than the basic tool itself. So if your full budget is $2500, you need to be looking at mills that are in the $1000-1300 range. So right from the start, you can elminate anything like a brand new Bridgeport or large free-standing model. You are in the range of a benchtop mill/drill, or a benchtop mini-mill, or maybe a used floorstanding machine (if you are willing to put in the time to refurbish it properly).

Once you have the budget identified, look around and buy the largest capacity machine you can afford. If you think you only need a machine with a 8x24" table, but you can afford one with a 10x36" table, always pay the extra price and get the larger one. Fundamental truth number two is "the largest piece of material you have to machine will always be two inches larger than your machine can handle." A large machine can always work on small parts, but the inverse is not always true. Even if you can't think of anything on your robot that will need a big capacity machine, you never know what you will want to work on during the off-season or next year.

The next thing to think about is support and maintenance of the machine when you buy it. Is the manufacturer still in business and/or is there a distributor network for spare and replacement parts if you need any? Is the tooling interface a standard size, so tooling will be readily available and inexpensive? Will you have access to other people that have used this make/model machine that you can turn to if you need help? Time for fundamental truth number three: "when your made-in-the-USA machine tools breaks, the part needing replacement is the one piece that was manufactured by a defunct company formerly located in Eastern Slobovia in a factory that now produces shower curtain rings. Your custom-made replacement part will cost more than the original price of the whole machine tool." Having access to a bunch of other owners of the model XYZ mill will help you find sources for these replacement parts (one great resource is on-line user groups - check Yahoo.com for "model XYZ mill users" or whatever).

OK, so with all that said, here are three specific recommendations:

1. Consider the Rong-Fu model 31 mill/drill. It is right in the middle of the price range and capability space that you are looking for. I know of several teams that use this size machine with a lot of success. They use R-8 tooling, which is commonly available. There are several on-line groups (such as the Yahoo Mill-Drill group) that are very active and helpful. And, best yet, Enco has them on sale right now. If you can afford it, go ahead and bump up to the model 45 with a square column - adjustment of the head height is a breeze with this model.

Note: be sure and look for the Rong-Fu model, which is made in Taiwan. They are good quality machines, apparently made by a company that still gives a crap about quality and tolerances. Problem reports on them are infrequent. There are several makes of Chinese knock-off copies, most of which have real problems ranging from sand-filled castings to skewed table ways to horrible backlash problems on all axes. Avoid them like the plague.

2. Since you are in the area, get to a meeting of the Chesapeake Area Metalworking Society (CAMS). The CAMS members are active and retired machinists that enjoy metalworking as a hobby. They constantly debate topics like "what is the best mill for my budget?" and can provide a LOT of good information. There is also an active sub-group focused on CAM systems, and converting manual mills to CNC capability (for when you are ready to take that next step).

3. Depending on your schedule, there is an event in late spring you may want to consider. At the end of March, there is an annual surplus machine tool sale and auction held in Richmond VA. If you are interested in used machine tools, you can get some great prices here (as good as 10 cents on the dollar against original purchase price). The auction is typically supplied by machine shops that are upgrading or going out of business, and the inventory is always varied. If you go this route, just be sure that you have the ability to evaluate the tools for quality so you don't get taken and have access to someone skilled that can refurbish used machines.

I hope this helps. Let us know what you decide!

-dave

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

I looked in a catalog from Grizzly Industrial. They have every size and type of tool including the needed hardware. They have mill/Lathe combos that start at $795 and up to $2595(this one is 12"x39")

www.grizzly.com

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

I'd be careful with Grizzly... A lot of those tools are the "Chinese knock-off copies, most of which have real problems ranging from sand-filled castings to skewed table ways to horrible backlash problems on all axes. Avoid them like the plague." that Dave Lavery was talking about. On the other hand, their stuff is really cheap. I'd look around for people that actually own the tools and see what they think. And be prepared to return defective parts. When I bought a Horizontal Band saw from them the Hydraulic Feed was completely broken. They are really nice about this, and I got my replacement hydraulic cylinder in about 5 days, and I haven’t had a problem since.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

We got a Smithy Granite last year and it was a huge step up for us in terms of what we can now do (from hacksaws and hand drills). I agree completely with Dave that you must be prepared for the tooling costs. I think we've now spent more on tooling than on the original machine (4-Jaw Chuck, Rotary Table/Indexer, DRO, End mills, Collets, .....).

As far as Smithy quality - so far I've been impressed. The only trouble we've noticed is that the tolerances on the lathe are only +/- .002 on a good day and usually +/- .005 So much of it depends on how well you setup your pieces. We have had a retired machinist come in and show the students a lot of the basics.

Don't forget to reserve some $$ for quality measuring instruments and tools. Calipers, dial indicator, plunge indicator, Last Word, center/edge finder and their respective holders and bases.

Now I just need about two or three more, because during competition we have about 3-4 jobs lined up at any one time to get done on the mill. It's real easy to go over board with all this machining stuff, you keep saying things like "we'll just bore it open ourselves" and "we can make our own bearing pillow mounts". Remember this during the design process!

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I would also recommend looking around at local auctions. You can often find fairly decent machinery here and sometimes it will cost you less than buying a new cheap one. I bought a 10*36 Atlas lathe at an auction for 100 bucks. I also saw a fairly large South Bend lathe at the same auction that also went very cheap. I know you're looking for mills but the same thing applies. It is a game of chance, but if it is in good shape, it will work better and last longer than any of these new cheaper tools made today

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UPDATE: We bought the Rong Fu!. Came with a nice set of tooling, arrives in 8-10 days. Now we just need to learn how to use it...

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

Congratulations! I think you will like the machine. As with any mill, you will need a big slug of tooling to go along with it. Some where back in my files, I have a list of all the tooling elements that go with a Rong-Fu mill to provide a good basic capability. If I can find it, I will send it along. Also, there are a lot of people in the NoVa area that have these machines (Team 116 included), that can help you get up to speed with it. Set up is pretty straightforward. If yours ends up being anywhere near as ready-to-go as ours was, you will just need to uncrate it, clean off the cosmoline, lube it up, tram the head, tighten up all the fasteners, and you are ready to go.

Make sure that when you mount it, you put it on a very solid, stable base. One of the biggest enemies of this class of machine is vibration, which will be amplified if the machine is sitting on a wobbly folded metal stand. Also, the perfect mounting location will have a hole in it so you can access the Y-axis acme screw from underneath the machine. This will make it very easy to periodically lube the acme screw without having to tilt up the machine (you CAN do this, but it is a bit of a pain).

These machines are heavy, about 600 pounds. To move the mill around (like putting it on your base when you uncrate it), an engine hoist is the perfect solution. If you don't have one in your shop already, you can get them locally at rental shops in the area for about $30/day.

-dave

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

I have a Smithy 1220XL Ltd and I can vouch that the accuracy of the factory ACME screws was terrible on my machine. I did upgrade mine to CNC and it was plain unacceptable. Just over the summer I upgraded the X and Y to Ball Screws myself from stock that I bought from MCMaster at quite a deal. Used a dial indicator and the transformation is Night-N-Day as far as accuracy. I think the machine overall isn't bad, just the screws on it suck especially since the brass half nuts on mine wore out so fast from the milled slots to support the power crossfeed. I did lose the power crossfeed but with the Ball Screw setup but I can get that with the Y CNC motor if I really need it.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

HI, how is the rong-fu working out?
I have been setting up a jet drill/mill for use this year,
1) Installing a liner bearing on the head (so you can change hight without losing position,)
2) A "dro" on the spindle
3) reverse switch
4) chip shield with lights
5) collet rack

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

I just found this http://www.homier.com/default.asp?dp...tail&sku=03989 It is probably really junky and it has no z axis fine feed but at $199 it does seem to be a very good price.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

Well the mill we have is very nice its full cnc. I have a question if you cant run data from a comp. how can you cut round holes for bearings. Especially if you are using over 1" I believe we have 4 2" on our robot this year. But all in all digital cnc screen mpg all the goody's.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

See if you can find a "table top" bridgeport...our bridgeport floor models in our machine shop are very nice machines, with Digital Readouts for precision, and they are great to use as a drill press too.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

It all depends on what you want to do with it. If you are just going to knock out a few small pieces, and aren't really worried about precision or any workpieces larger than 2"x3"x6" then this might be OK. But if you are going to do anything involving multiple copies of the same part, quality finishes, tolerances closer than 15 mils, or ever working with plastics or other non-ferrous materials, then run away from this thing as fast as you can.

Here is a clue: if the vendor (Homier) doesn't even bother to proof-read their advertisements and make sure there are no spelling mistakes, just how much care do you think they put into their products?

For small round holes, multi-drill to 3-5 mils under size, then use a reamer. Do not just use a drill - a standard twist drill will give you a triangular hole (there is a good, concise discussion of this here). For larger holes, cut out the bulk of the material with a hole saw or mill, then finish with a boring head to get a hole that is truly round.

Machinists were making large round holes in workpieces for decades before anyone ever thought about how to control a cutting head with a computer. All you need is the right tooling, the right experience, and the right amount of patience. Machinists and toolmakers in the late 1800's were able to produce parts that were accurate to within a millionth of an inch when necessary, all by hand. Machinists - it is almost more accurate to call them artisans - could hand scrape a surface plate to a level of precision that would easily rival a Grade AA/Laboratory plate manufactured today. When computer control was added into the mix, it didn't really improve the precision or accuracy of the manufacturing process. The ability to produce a part to a certain tolerance was always there. But it did radically improve the speed of production for a given part (and particularly, multiples of parts).

As far as I know, Bridgeport never made a benchtop/table top milling machine. I believe that all of their models were floor-standing (this is certainly the case for all their Series-1 and J-head models). If you are talking about the mill/drill machines and smaller "laboratory mills" or "mini-mills" then you might want to check out the first part of this very thread, which already has a discussion on the topic.

-dave

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

If you plan to press fit a bunch of bearings of the same size (ie... 1/2" ID = 9/8" OD, or 3/8" ID = 7/8" OD) Like we tend to do each year, it might be worth it to invest in an undersized reamers (from here. Last year we used a boring head to get our bearing holes the right size and it worked pretty well. We had a retired machinist last year helping / teaching us how to do some of the milling. We now have a small benchtop CNC which is so much simpler to make small transmission plates with bearing holes and such. The FP gearbox shown in this thread, was designed on a Wed. night (gears/bearings ordered that night), wrote the g-code on Thursday (with some help from MasterCam), received our gears/bearings on Fri, and had it finished Friday Night. We could have probably made the gearbox on our Smithy Mill, but we're so inexperienced, we'd probably just make a mistake, expecially since you need two sides to line up pretty darn close. The CNC is nice because once you have it set and indexed, it'll cut it out almost perfectly. Unfortunately our benchtop can only cut 3.25" on its y-axis, but it proved useful and is good for students to learn about.

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This prolly wownt fit your budget but we use a Bridgeport with digital readouts. We didnt have to buy it cuz we have full access to Washtenaw Community College's machine lab (CNC's and all). I would agree that a digital readout is VERY nice.

Whats ur bandsaw like? We have one almost exactly like this one:http://www.usedmachinerysales.com/picture/2013.jpg

3 in ones are a pain. If you want a lathe, get a good one with the metal catch in the back for chips.

Re: Mill Suggestions?
 

Older Bridgeport you'll have to call them though.
I found this searching images on Google. Looks nice obviously used I will call looks like it may go cheap enough for you too buy its a Lil beat up. Hey you like Bridgeport? There you go. :)