Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

This is an offical game clue for the 2005 season from a FIRST e-mail blast on December 30, 2004. It is documented in this thread. It has been brought into the Rumor Mill for discussion to keep the E-Mail Blast Archive in a more pure state...Any ideas?

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

It looks like both players accomplished their tripple plays against Cleveland.

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So something with three's and what is Cleveland famous for?

They have the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, maybe there are lyrics that match this.

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Was this in a FIRST email?! If so, w00t!

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March 14 is National PI day.... March = 3

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okay, follow me here.

The IR Beacon is in the middle of the field, you cant see it, thats why you need to "Look closly", and, maybe, there are 3 teams going at it at once...?

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My mother thinks it has to do with the scoring and 3 ways and i agree.

It looks like that 3 is the lucky number this year. about time 3 is the lucky number.

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Red+Blue = purple

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I think its pretty clear from the shape of amethyst gems and from the triple-play clue that we are going back to the hexagon fields with 3 teams. Now for the "Pi, you, and me" part...

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Could it be something with pyramids?

The Rock and Roll hall of fame is a pyramid shape if i can remember correctly and as previously posted the amethyst has a pyramid on it too. So maybe something in the middle of the field is a pyramid?

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Well it has to be something invisible, cause it says "If you look closely", thats y i assumed that it was the beacon or something.

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Yes I agree. Looking into FIRST History , the astute reader will note that FIRST expects feilds to last for 5 years. The number 5 is also visible in John Neun's user image. This year would be the current feild's sixth if we were to keep it.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Leonardo Da Vinci wrote that amethyst was able to dissipate evil thoughts and quicken the intelligence.

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George H. Burns -- Sept. 14, 1923
Boston first baseman George Burns turned his in the second inning against Cleveland. Burns caught Frank Brower's line drive, tagged Walt Lutzke off first base and ran to second and slid into the bag before Riggs Stephenson could return from third base.

is there another george burns? other then baseball?

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Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

WHOOO HOO!!! Let the games begin!!

I spy with my little eye.. a bunch of numbers

Amethyst = 6th anniversary stone
John Neun -(V = 5)?
George Burns (Actor)= 100 years old when he died
Pi = ~3


Something between 3, 100, and 65?
Weird...

And Mike.. uh.. yeah. George Burns, Actor..

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"I think its pretty clear from the shape of amethyst gems and from the triple-play clue that we are going back to the hexagon fields with 3 teams. Now for the "Pi, you, and me" part..."

Yes, lets go here. Another definition of Pi

What is pi? It is equal to C/d, or C/2r, where C is the circumference of any circle, and d is its diameter, and r is its radius.
http://www.jimloy.com/geometry/pi.htm

How could circumference fit in?

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

My dad took a look at the hint and came up with Amethyst colored glasses = rose colored glasses. And its Montgomery Burns on the simpsons. George Burns is an actor.

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Yes, he was a vaudeville actor. See wikipedia entry

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Aaaaah! George Burns was in a Soylent Green Promotional Film! Our robots will be fueled by people ;)

He was also in a the Beatles film "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band." We'll be seeing lyrics soon!

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thinking about last year's clue and dealt with a rule of the game so could there be something matched with the clue to a rule, you can make up. but another one of my guesses is it has to do with a rule of some thing. but the rule deals with the field and what you can do.

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6 sided field, 95 points max??, and maybe he has an actual pie in his shirt???
I dunno, i might be totally off

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Perhaps a six sided field with a hole in the center of size Pi * (you) and (me). Whatever you and me are in that equation I don't know.

hmm... a nut shaped field.

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This is going to drive everyone completely crazy for the next 8 days. i don't think i will get much sleep. So many possibilities so many different meanings and soo many different opinions. LOL but i guess this is what FIRST is all about.

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Corey you might be on to something with the pyramids i don't know how you got on it but here is something to back you up http://www.jimloy.com/pseudo/pyramid.htm this goes with Corey theory.

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Maybe theres a pyramid in the center and thats where the robots start off at? I dont know ahhh:ahh:

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Great, thanks Dave, puttin' down Cleveland. Ya know we've done nothing bad, I mean, we even have NASA Glenn up there! ;)

3 is the magic number kidos, could we have a triangle field this year?

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I've got it! John Neun, George Burns, who was in a Beatles film. John and George, get it!

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~leis/albu...les/pepper.jpg

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rose colored glasses:
So we are looking at the world in a happy way.

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PI is the 16 th letter of the Greek Alphabet. The following is from a math site:

pi PI (PIE) The lower-case Pi is universally used to represent that number which is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. The upper-case Pi is used as the “product” symbol.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

And maybe, going back to some old posts, They did not put the V in there again, as a split hint(using the baseball player and JVN) and that the missing v, when flipped upside down is a pyramid type shape.

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"Something between Pi, You and Me" means something Pi, George Burns, and John Neun have in common. This is the number three.

So, in my opinion, this clue tells us two things and only two things: hexagon and the number three.

Three probably refers to the number of teams per alliance since I can't see them abandoning alliances. Also, most regionals are bigger this year. Regionals can be bigger because six teams will play in each match instead of four. So there can be more teams and still give everyone the matches they need.

I think the hexagon could either refer to the field's or the scoring object's shape. I'm undecided here.

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AND John Lennon had rose colored specs!!!

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Neun and Burns both made UNASSISTED triple plays. Purple is the combination of Red and Blue. Maybe there are no longer alliances and you get extra points for doing something during autonomous.

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While I also can't imagine FIRST abandoning alliances altogether, it may be worth noting that John Neun and George Burns are notable in baseball for having performed unassisted triple plays.

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free for all type of game?

but with three teams

or another way is 3 teams working together?

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But seriously a sports reference from FIRST/Dean who, in a speech, said parts of sports are bad?

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Good find M.

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God I hope not, that last time they had all teams working together wasn't much fun.

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Look at this bloody album cover people! John Lennon (Neun), known for his rosy specs, and George Harrison (Burns) have a drum between them. A circle! Pi! Muhahahaha! George Burns was in the movie the beatles made about this album. This makes perfect sense. Everything is coming together.

Pi - The Drum
You - George
Me - John

Forms a triangle!!!!
In the center of which is something they are holding!

What are they holding?!

UPDATE: They're all musical instruments. What does that mean? The trumpet seems closest to the center. Trumpets are used to wake people up. Maybe waking up is leaving auto mode. Whatever the case, I'm positive Lavery was indicating this album cover. It's just so like him. First Led Zep, now the Fab Four. And hey, he mentioned the fab four in another clue! Let me find it.

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But if purple is the combination of Red and Blue, it could mean that FIRST is back to one pair/triplet of teams working together. And if its between Neun and Burns, would mean is not-unassisted, which would further support that teams work together as one.

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First of all, I disagree completely with this thread being in the Rumor Mill.

Second, I completely agree with the unassisted triple play idea.

Third, the roots of the word Amethyst are in the Greek amethustos meaning "not drunk" (look it up) so I think we will be following a line again.

Why is Amethyst capitalized? I wonder...

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I remembered hearing a thread a bit back about a kid hearing Dave Lavery saying something he saw at the Science Museum of Virginia reminded him of somethign from next years game and so I searched their website and during march of 2004 which is when they had the VCU regional there was an exhibit on CRYSTALS! specifically noting HEXAGON shaped... I wasnt there and cant find anything on the site but I would assume they also had sample on display, maybe they had some AMETHYST on show? Hexagon shaped something sounds logical....

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I am going with what Max said, 3 Vs. 3 and a hexagonal field. ::pulls hair out::

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Because a Captial A looks like a Pyramid shape lol. I'm not gonna drop the pyramid idea yet. :D

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Wow... I am having so many thoughts running through my head right now... but here is my first thought.

Red and Blue combined is the color purple. Is FIRST telling us that this year the line between blue and red alliances will be blurred somehow?

For example... will teams be rotated between alliances in the middle of the match? Will robots A,B, and C start out as an alliance against robots D,E, and F... and then at a certain point in the match, teams A and D switch alliances?

I could certainly see FIRST making a game like this, because it doesn't get rid of alliances and it still requires cooperation.

This is only one idea out of many, so I'm sure I will be posting more....
This is fun!

--Jaine

EDIT: Why is "You, Me, and Pi" capitalized?

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i am with you about the music and the game it is just who is the artist that is the big clue.

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Muwhahahahaha! Did someone say Drum again? :ahh:

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What? Did someone mention a drum before? Explain this comment!

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Why is Pi capitalized?

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Proper Nouns are capitalized :D

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Remember the Patent application on the game this year.... Alliances will still be in.

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Here is a great refrence to all the people who appear on that album cover. George Burns isn't on it, and neither is John Neun :-)

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I agree with the hexagonal field idea. I think that the Pi references the center of the field being a round hole. As a driver, I think that'd be a great idea. It was very difficult to see around last year's montrous center setup.

Perhaps "between Pi, You and Me" means that the hole in the center is between the two alliance members (You and Me). Thus, alliances will still exist, but they will have to play on opposite ends of the field. I can't imagine not having some type of alliance system in FIRST.

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So much rampant speculation... I'll go along with the purple = red+blue thing, and the not-quite unassisted thing. My hunches are currently that it's some sort of non-alliance game, but you can also cooperate with another team in some fashion to get extra points for both teams.

Edit: Just remembered. Pi radians = 180 deg. a straight line. something's in the middle of the field on a straight line between the two teams?

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Quote:

PI is the 16 th letter of the Greek Alphabet. The following is from a math site: pi PI (PIE) The lower-case Pi is universally used to represent that number which is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. The upper-case Pi is used as the “product” symbol.

…so uppercase Pi is used as the “product” symbol eh?

Does this mean that there will be a multiplier in this game? Like the 2x ball from last year and the stacks from 2003?

-- Jaine

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

I personally like the idea of the alliances switching in the middle of the match. It definetly seems like something FIRST would do. 3 on 3...and after a minute or such, all the lights change RANDOMLY, and the lights on the robots change to show who is on which alliance...So you cant just setup where u want to be when u change. Thats just what I'm thinking, I <3 this chaos.

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Very, Very, Possible

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Actually, I meant 3 teams total. As I said in some other rumor thread, 6 teams per match is unlikely because of the increased logistics headache of moving that many teams on and off the field.

I definitley think there is something to this working together thing with the blue and red blurred thing, and I am not to happy about it. I know they want to deal with the battle bots issue, but I can't imagine how they can remove the head-to-head competition and keep it fun.

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I'll put my money on a field design where you must have the other team help you get scoring objects across a chasm. Hence the 'middle is out' comment, and the purple (red + blue, guess nobody has mentioned redvsblue.com yet) clue.

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Wouldn't FIRST still want some interactive space between the two alliance members? Maybe the purple (red+blue) signifies this area/hole between the two starting positions that is what allows both to score/cooperate.

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Well, last year, between one regional and the championships, our team had two partners not show up.

I mean, the whole team thing can certainly backfire...

But I wonder how strategy could work with switching alliances? That seems to be a central part of the game...

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

I am reminded of the "4 is not enough, and the center is out" clue, even tho it was a fake, look at it. 4 is not enough, 4 corners are not enough, and the center is out could in my eyes be 2 things....One the center is inside out meaning its on the outside and the outside is in (aka driver stations?) and it could also be the "amethyst" scoring area....

I am also sticking to the switching of alliances in the middle of the match as part of the whole "amethyst" scheme..

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

well... I think it is still head to head... if only 1 team is switching out at a time, then you still have to work hard together with your slighty-different-alliance to defeat the other.

Also, the alliance switching may not occur during the match itself... perhaps the alliances change between rounds. so, during round 1 its would be ABC vs. DEF, the second round would be DBC vs. AEF ... etc.

Get rid of the unwarranted assumptions about the alliance switching idea... there could be an infinite amount of meanings for it. It could be an alliance configuration we have never even dreamt of yet. ;)

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Just for you phrontist LINK

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if this is the scenario...

"during round 1 its would be ABC vs. DEF, the second round would be DBC vs. AEF"

How would they decide whose the winner (regionals, national) and whose the finalist?

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i think we are missing something very obvious....if both of the people are baseball players.....maybe baseballs are the scoring objects this year.

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Hey, don't forget the drivers could be in the center.

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Reprhrasing the clue:

"Wearing purple (and/or six sided prism glasses) look closely between Pi (circle 3.14), and two tripple play makers.

Sorry, don't expect to see a radical change in the number of teams competing. There are still four channels on the radios, so I don't think six at a time is possible, and three at a time is not efficient. I also don't see a major redesign in the field of play. It is darn expensive to throw out what you have already.

Scoring a tripple play or having do arrange something in a way that three out of four things are in a circle is perhaps a possibility. Another gruesome though - perhaps a version of the "Towers of Hanoi" puzzle where alliances have to arrange blue and red (makes purple = amythest) circles on three of four (triple play) sticks.

Other inferences - this is obvoiusly a clue from a baseball trivia crazy fan. As such if this person also designed the game, we can bet the statistics and math will proably play a big part in figuring out the score.

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That'd be sick!

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Could also be bases. They are both known for triple plays. Perhaps there are 3 bases.

Pi you and me I think suggests a cirular something inbetween the bases.

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That'd be pretty hard to see. Especially with more bots on the field.

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alright, i can agree with this. so not 3 vs. 3 (because of the channels). So is it more than 4 human players?
:ahh:

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I don't think there will be more bots. Thats a stupid change to make. It shall be four.

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Rumor has it that they have been making changes on the radios this year.

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Source?

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Given the fact that the Israeli regional capped at 12 teams this year, and 12 is the number that would lead to a succesful ladder of a 3 alliance game, this is what I believe will happen.

Alliances will be 3 large, and thus have a good ladder for a 12 team regional.

Of course.. a 2 team alliance would work too.. but meh.. :p

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Pi is a number between George and John. Well, I have no clue, but here are their stats:

George Burns
John Neun

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I really dont see this happening, unless all the robots on the field work together, because it ruins some of the strategy and team work that has to go on. Also, the driver will have a much harder time looking at all parts of the field. It would also ruin communication building because the teams would not be able to talk to each other as much before/duing the match.

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Well, this is likely a shot in the dark due to some of the past posts (ie 4 channel radios and such), but we are all just guessing :)

So I went with the 3 theme, and I liked the red+blue=purple, and that it is a baseball hint.... so here goes:

There are 3 alliances on the field. (between pi, you & me = 3, triple plays = 3) etc.

The field is 6 sided (amythst 6 sided crystals)

The scoring objects are baseballs (John & George)

The center is a pyramid (cleveland rock & roll hall of fame, amythst, etc)

The alliance partners are broken up and CANNOT work together other than to score/defend (unassisted!)

And the pyramid is made of plexiglass (amythst glasses) with the top center of it out (I know that goes back to the old rumor, but there has to be somewhere to score!)

Check out the drawing I made :)

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This is weird and probably an unrelated coincidence, but George Burns has a rose named after him, and Royal Amythyst is also the name of a rose.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Very good question.

Maybe, matches will start out with ABC vs. DEF, switch it to something else for the second match/part of a round, and then have it go back to the original configuration.

But the blurring of blue vs. red could mean other things too besides alliance switching. Maybe this means that in order to score points a certain way, the two alliances will have to work together somehow.

And back to deciding who wins with alliance switching...

Maybe alliances would somehow be determined autonomously at the beginning or end of the match.

...or...

Maybe all 6 robots would be working alone to score points during the first half of the match... say with 6 different goals... and then during the second half, alliances would be revealed and you would have to scramble to get the goals with the most points.


...or...

Maybe the winners would be determined in a completely atypical way from what we are used to. During a round, teams will be advanced/ eliminated based on how many points they have earned total in all their matches... so basically the top three(or however many) scorers would advance to the next elimination round. This won't eliminate alliances however, because alliances will still exist, but they will be 'shared' so to speak and switched around...

...or...

Maybe there will be some red robots/goals, and some blue robots/goals... and then a wildcard 'purple' robot/goal ... which could go to either red or blue alliance. How it would be given to an alliance has many different possibilities. Maybe, if it were an object or a goal, it would be something that robots would have to fight over to get in a scoring zone perhaps. If its a robot, then maybe you dont know what alliance it will be on until the beginning of the round.

I know alot of these ideas are completely crazy... but like I said... get rid of the unwarranted assumption! There could be MANY ways in which this could work!

-- Jaine

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

*strokes chin* <vincent price>Innnnnteresting</vincent price>

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Actually, IFI can define new channels for the robots to drive on, thus allowing four fields at a time at the Championship (and a fifth, if you count the NASA field in the pit--but I don't know how the reception works)

However, you do have a point in that controlling six robots means some fields would have to go in Atlanta. And that means more teams per division...and that means fewer matches per team...

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Intriguing.. I wonder if " between Pi, you and me" has to do with how the IR affects the primary objective of the game. Perhaps 3 comes into play there also.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Rememeber, during last year's Kickoff, when they were talking about the IR beacon's, Dave mentioned that they were stationary, however that had no bearing on THIS year's game.

He implied that there would be moving IR beacons this year.

And they really, really like the autonomous mode stuff. And last year people began to build their strategies around NOT knocking off the ball in autonomous mode. Half the teams I saw didn't do ANYTHING during autonomous mode.

So I bet they're going to make autonomous mode more important this year, somehow. And that involves IR Beacons that are moving.

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Googling Amythyst and George Burns does bring this Rose link as the most prevalent (but that's just searching the internet).

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I think that since the number 3 keeps coming up, it refers to a third completely different field. Has anyone thought about the possibility of a baseball field shape? ... Could be a possibility :rolleyes: .

Anyway, I think that this years game definitely has a different field not a revival of an old one. If they were going to rotate fields every 5 years, rotating 2 different fields doesn't seem worth it ... :yikes: but that's just me.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Hmmm... what about the Compass rose? Doesn't that have 4(or 8) points to it?
(I realize that this is a bit obscure lol)

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Aren't the lenses of the Banner sensors sort of a rose color?

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Im thinking when they made this hint, they expected people to take the part about Amethyst at face value, and jump to the conclusion there is a 6 sided field. I am also thinking that there is a much deeper meaning to that.

I like phontrists' train of thought with the whole Beatles thing. I'll keep thinking about this clue and post what I think when I am almost sure.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

All i can say is... WHAT????lol im so confused...im waiting patiently for kickoff to come to find out wht the game it lol my brain is hurting lol :ahh:
-Court-

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Are you serious that you can wait PATIENTLY and not go crazy to know the game till the 8th?


anyways back to the thread... since "3" is coming back up. is it 3 major scoring objects? like 180 pounds mobile goals from back in 2002? or something similar to that?

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Maybe 3v3 with a rectangular field (made wider to accomodate the third alliance station and alternate for queuing, and possibly 6' longer to accomodate the added width), and a round scoring goal made out of steel/aluminum/pvc (the Pi -> pie) in the middle of the field between the two alliances (you and me)?

There has to be something more, though... either more goals or a ramp, teeter-totter, steps, maybe even additional but less important goals, etc.

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A compass rose can have 4, 8, or 16 points in it......

The compass rose aids in a person using a map to find direction... Maybe something with the IR sensors.... idk random thought

Edit: My post in the other thread http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...06&postcount=4

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

There was a book titled Life of Pi. Pi was the nickname of a 16 year old Indian boy named after a swimming pool who dabbles in three different religions (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism), and is trapped on a life boat with a tiger, orangutan, and zebra (it ends up being just him and the tiger) in the middle of the Pacific Ocean for close to a year.

So... 3 very different animals, 3 religions, and 16 years.

This generally supports the 3 teams theory(or alliances of 3).

But I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

I think IR is back to spite me, time to start thinking about it again.

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i have a feeling that the field with be the same as it was last year just to save some money. but what is inside the the field will be diferent.

Re: Official 2005 Clue Thread
 

Here's another rendition of the Red + Blue = Purple idea...

Alliances stay the same throughout the match (I personally think it would be hard to change partners during the actual match, especially with strategy, but who knows). However, if lets say there are 2 scoring "zones" for you to place whatever objects give you points, and mid-way through the match, the zones "swap". So, whatever objects you put in yours, you have to pull out and put in the other zone and the opposite alliance vice versa. Thus, forcing both teams to be defensive, offensive, and fast... plus very much alliance cooperation to accomplish the task. So, no scoring zone truly belongs to any alliance. Heck, maybe they don't even tell you which scoring zone is yours till the match is going. Just an interesting twist I figured I'd throw in.