Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

So is there a reason behind the banning of political material from signatures? Personally, I think our signatures should be held to the same account as our posts: fine as long as its not personally attacking someone. Banning signatures because they are of a political nature does not seem fair. Why isn't this ban extended to religious or ideological signatures also? Drawing the line on the topic of discussion, instead of the type of argument seems dangerous.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=30697

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

Well, I think I mis-spoke on the comment in regards to representing a group. To a certain extent, people will associate a comment from somebody with a particular organization they may be a part of. We're not supposed to do that, but we're humans, and thats what humans do.


In regards to this 'mod' who posted and closed this thread, I will defend my position. I may be a moderator but I also have the right to comment on a subject or post just like everybody else. If I was going around and editing posts or deleting posts/ threads for something that I don't agree with, that would be a problem. I was asked by many people to close the thread via AIM and there were several people reported the post via the forums. With being the only moderator that was online at the time, as most are out of town on vacation or Christmas break, I felt it would be best to just close it then. There would be no since to continue to leave it open when the community is asking to close it. This is not the first time I have been accused of closing a thread that I participated in, and I doubt it will be the last. It may not seem like I'm being transparent to some of you folks, but I am being fair. If you don't like the way I do something, oh well. I'm not perfect.

I stand by my actions, and if you don't like it, oh well.

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

I guess the main reason is because of the fact that this website has a corporate affliation along with its name. If this were a standalone website with its own private funding and host with a reasonably benevolent ;) leadership it would likely invite a heightened (though not necessairly more civilized) level of discussion leading to more conflict. Thats one thing I acutally liked about chiefdelph in particular. Well I may feel stymied 5 minutes after an engaging thread is closed, I often come back a day or two later glad to see that it was nipped in the bud while it was in its relative infancy, but only when it was beginning to degenerate into something unrelated to the original topic or obviously below any sort of civilized discussion.

Ultimately its up to whoever pays the bills, although it may not seem fair, it is their own right to dictate their policies.

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

I don't think that's completely correct; let's say that Lockheed-Martin was the prime sponsor of the United Way. In the absence of an agreement detailling the specific rights of each organization, if Lockheed didn't like some United Way policy, they could withdraw funding, but they wouldn't be in a position to change that policy themselves. Similarly, depending on the nature of the sponsorship agreement between Delphi and team 47, I surmise that funding and other support, but not editorial control could be in jeopardy if objectionable material were to present itself on the forums. (Of course, the easiest way to prolong support is to avoid offending the benefactor...which may have the same effect as granting them the right to make editorial decisions.)

Now, as for political advertisments, I can't say that I like them--the Bush/Kerry/etc. graphics here and in other forums were just as tasteless as election signs littering the cityscape. On the other hand, a thread devoted to the discussion of politics is perfectly acceptable; I'd say that by posting the thread with a link to the ACLU, Leon invited comment on the ACLU itself, even though his intention seemed to be the promotion of a particular petition. That's fair game in the Chit-Chat forum (and nowhere else, I might add).

I don't think that closing the thread in question was necessary, largely because I feel that the pressure to avoid the potential for offence is too strong on this forum. Far too often, we, as a community are ignorant of the (not-quite-clear-cut) distinction between a personal attack and a disputation of fact. A vigourous rebuttal of unsubstantiated, inconsistent contentions might seem harsh, but (at least in my case), I endeavour to argue the merits of the issue, rather than attack the person. For example, while I often insist that someone is grossly wrong, I rarely accuse them of being an imbecile.

Also, as it relates to that particular case, it might have been preferable for David to refer the thread to another moderator for closure, as it does create the unfortunate question of whether he was using moderator functions for personal advantage (namely to avoid the argument). I'll admit that this was my first thought when I saw that the thread had been locked (as I was making an edit to clarify my post there) "because nothing good is going to come out from either side". Since he offers a reasonable explanation of his actions above, I disclaim any accusation and merely leave this as a point for moderators to consider in the future.

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

All Microsoft bashing must stop immediately :ahh:

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

I'm ambivalent about whether political discussions/political advertisement should continue on chiefdelphi. However, there is another issue that occurred it that thread that I think should be addressed.

I don't think that a moderator should moderate a thread in which he/she participates. The outside observer is left with the question as to whether the thread was locked because it became a flame war or whether it was locked because people disagreed with the moderator who posted in the thread. This sense of impropriety shouldn't exist in a serious discussion forum.

I propose that moderators should deliberately abstain from posting their opinion in potentially divisive threads. A divisive thread isn't just one about politics or religion but often occur in rules discussions and accusations against other teams. The disadvantage that this suggestion holds is that the moderators are often some of the most respected posters on chiefdelphi, and we would lose their insight in some of the most important threads.

An alternate suggestion is to not have a moderator perform any moderator functions in a thread in which they share their opinion. Rather then David closing the thread, I think it would have been more appropriate for someone else to have decided that it needed to be closed. I think that for this to work, the number of moderators on chiefdelphi would need to be increased by a minimum of several people.

Just to clarify, I don't think that any impropriety occurred in the thread, but rather that there was the possible appearance of impropriety that should be avoided.

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

I am one of those who voted for no political advertisement threads.

ChiefDelphi is a very valuable and important resource and gathering place for tons of FIRST participants from practically every team. Nobody should have to risk their privileges of participating because of a heated political debate.

Many times people at my school have argued endlessly about elections and political parties, and the only results are hurt feelings and added frustration. Although our moderators are very good and I do not find that political debates get out of control when a close eye is kept on them, if one erupted when no moderator was there to stop it somebody could lose their CD account (or all credibility on the site) due to rash behavior on a topic for which these forums were not fully intended.

There are plenty of places to discuss politics, such as in chatrooms or other forums, however ChiefDelphi is just too terrific and precious a place for people to lose. If we could all be gracious and professional all the time, we could have these threads. Unfortunately that is not the case and it would be a shame if anybody was unable to be a part of this community just because of a different political belief that they failed to express in an acceptable way.

It was mentioned earlier that political discussion and attacks are hard to distinguish from one another sometimes, and to avoid attacks I believe it is necessary that political stances not be taken on a robotics-based site. We all are entitled to our opinions, I am just afraid that they will breed anger or cause the loss of use of these forums to even a single person.

-Steve Howland

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

I have not seen a single signature on this site with a caption similar to "My religion is better than yours because...". You make a good point that it needs to apply, but I think this is a reasonable ban. While I had no problem with political banners, a few users did, and it was getting to the point that people were arguing over their signatures. I think if there was a problem with religiousness in the signatures, it would be brought to light and fixed. The question is, what do you define is a problem?

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

I'm a little torn on this issue, as I personally choose to abstain from nearly all political and religious debates, as I dont think I have ever seen one change someone's mind, or make someone feel better. Those just seem to be two topics that people take personally, and get very stubborn about (myself included). At the same time I agree with freedom to discuss, and I guess I would say such threads should be carefully watched, but could remain on CD. If it were my forum, I think I would disallow them, but I guess since CD is such a huge community, well, its a touchy subject, and get involved if you wish. As for advertising a business, go right ahead, but there will always be someone who disagrees with the advertisement... but at least we know its out there.

That said, I did have one comment on:
On my team we ran into such a situation. Harris decided they wanted us to do one thing, while the team was already doing it a different way. It was made clear to us that Harris had the final say, and this happens in the real world. If LM were the ONLY sponsor of the UW, and their only way of obtaining money for that year, I highly doubt that UW would not change their policy towards LM's rule. Unfortunately, having the cash in cases like these, means having the power. Luckily Delphi seems to allow these forums to take on their own issues, and the moderators deal with them well, and seemingly to Delphi's code of conduct.

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

Not only that, some banners were jumbo sized, most of the time larger than any posts they ever made on CD. No offence meant to them, but it got annoying, and did not create an friendly-family type of environment. I like debates and stuff, but not to the point people go bluntly and attack each other. Some of the banners clearly had inappropriate content. In all seriousness, all it takes is common sense, think before you post.

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

For the record, I was one of the people that requested that the political banners AND size of banners be addressed. I am Canadian and really don't care who you vote for or support. I do care that I come to CD for robotics. I really got tired of seeing half page political banners every post or two while I was trying to read a thread. I guess you should ask the question "Why are you here?" If for politics, I ask why CD. There are plenty of places that you would be welcome to debate politics.

To support David Kelly, I would have closed the thread if he hadn't. As moderators it is impossible to get to all of the threads just as they are starting up. As it is I spend 2 - 4 hours a day on CD and the amount of posts at times makes it tough to keep up.

The only way that I would agree to see political discussions on CD would be under a Politics thread. I could then disable it from appearing on my portal. I wouldn't ask to be a moderator so to me it would be as if it didn't exist.

When I was growing up (no comments) my mom gave me some good advice. "Don't talk about religion and politics." To have a one on one discussion with a person I know is even tough. People tend to be as passionate about politics as they are about FIRST maybe even more so. What do you think would happen if people started talking the opposite side of FIRST on these threads?

Let's stick to FIRST and robotics, that's why I am here and that's what I believe that CD is about.

Re: Poll: Role of Political Advertisement on ChiefDelphi
 

Note: I'm using myself as an example in this post

Looking at this thread, I noticed it had not input from anyone with a rep less than 4, so I figured I would try to represent that group. It seems to me that the majority of people on chiefdelphi are here as spectators, occasionally dropping a post here and there.

Something such as political discussion often just seems like clutter. Most of the time you aren't going to change anyone's opinion. It usually takes a vocal encounter to do that in my experience.

The reason? Chiefdelphi is on the Internet. It is hard to trust anything on the internet, as your English teachers no doubt will tell you when you are doing a research paper. Though it has a decent reputation, it is made up of people, and people are fallible, and will let their ideal end (changing the opinion of the reader) justify their means.

As such, many people avoid such threads, having informed themselves of issues via more reliable sources than an unrestricted membership forum. Most of them already have an opinion based on the information they have gathered, and reading what others say on that topic probably won't have any effect beyond wasting their time. To these people, the thread in question is just a link taking up space, bumping the one they were interested in down one notch.

To sum that up, to the casual surfer, the political threads are a small annoyance. That annoyance is outweighed by the benefits of good healthy debate experienced by the people who choose to participate in it.

Stop. Reread. Think before you post.
 

Argument - A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood.

The discourse would be much better if people wrote on it as if it were a formal paper. Rather than just 'Lavery is an idiot', support it! 'Lavery is an idiot because he let us know where he lives.'

Also, looking at the list of people who don't post in those threads speaks volumes about what they don't say.

Wetzel

Re: Stop. Reread. Think before you post.
 

They casual poster may not be posting here but they are reading it and making thier own decisions. Just not here.

Re: Stop. Reread. Think before you post.
 

I was trying to say something along the lines of - look at those with high rep and see who doesn't post in the political and other polarized chit-chat threads. It is a fairly big list.


Wetzel