RE:Removing Tetras
 

I don't have access to the manual until later, but I was wondering if anyone has read anything about removing tetras plaved on the large pryamids? Is it legal?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

I would assume so. I could remove the big balls from last year....

Dave

Re: Removing Tetras
 

I haven't found it in scoring yet, but probably NOT. More than likely there will be NO descoring just like last year. It's not gracious, and besides, you don't need their tetras to score YOUR points.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

<G18> ROBOTS can remove or displace TETRAS CONTAINED in a goal, but cannot remove TETRAS
STACKED on a goal. If an alliance ROBOT removes any STACKED TETRA of the opposing alliance, the
TETRA will be SCORED (3 points) and the opposing alliance automatically OWNS the GOAL for the
remainder of the match regardless of what color TETRAS are on the goal. There is no penalty for removing a
TETRA that is precariously positioned on a GOAL or TETRA, but not fully STACKED.

it woulda been more fun and competition if u were able to remove those stacked tetras, oh well. less worries.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Can you put your team's tetras on the other team's goals? I would think so but you never know :confused:

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Yes, you can do that. I'm not sure of the rule, but in the animation and the simulation they showed tetras being stacked.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

there arent specific goals this year. whichever alliance's tetra is stacked at the top of any of the 9 goals is considered their goal. you can then create rows (8 possible) each row is worth 10 pts.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

There aren't any "Red" or "Blue" goals this year. The locations would make you assume so, but in fact every goal is up for grabs. If you COULDNT place your tetras on the other alliances' goals, then you could never get a ROW.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

You've gotta read the game rules!

You can stack your tetras on the other teams tetras. Whoever has their color on top of the stack "owns" that goal, at least until the other team puts a tetra on top of it. You could have 3 tetras on top of a goal (worth 9 points), but if the other team has one on top of all of yours (worth 3 points), the goal will count toward their "3 goals in a line" for the 10 point bonus.

If there are no tetras on top of a goal, goal ownership is determined by the tetras inside the goal.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Yes. You own a goal when your color tetra is on top of the goal. You are expected to steal an opponent goal.


Wetzel

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Correct. Ownership is determined while the game is in play, and can change througout the game. If, however, a tetra is descored from the cap the opposing alliance maintains ownership of that goal the rest of the match.

In otherwords, if blue descores a red tetra, RED owns it the rest of the game.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

hmm what if there are only 2 tetras contained inside a goal, both are the same height, and each belongs to the two seperate teams? who has ownership?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

I would guess both teams, but if you cannot find this in the manual why not go post over at the Q&A page on the FIRST site.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

well it says that the tetras cannot be removed when its in the goal. Im confused about which goal that a tetras can be placed in? Im guessing all of them right?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

You can place the tetras in any of the 9 goals. You can place the tetras either on top of the goal (stack) or u can put them inside the goal.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Tetras can be removed from being contained in the goal (the bottom), but can not be removed from the top. You can place tetras on or in any of the goals.


Wetzel

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Tetras can be removed when they're in the goal, just not when they're on the goal...or so one of the people I've been bugging told me

Re: Removing Tetras
 

<G18> ROBOTS can remove or displace TETRAS CONTAINED in a goal, but cannot remove TETRAS STACKED on a goal. If an alliance ROBOT removes any STACKED TETRA of the opposing alliance, the TETRA will be SCORED (3 points) and the opposing alliance automatically OWNS the GOAL for the remainder of the match regardless of what color TETRAS are on the goal. There is no penalty for removing a TETRA that is precariously positioned on a GOAL or TETRA, but not fully STACKED.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

can one alliance team give another alliance team a tetra? and or take a tetra from their other alliance teams? for example, in my alliance, one of the teams gets disabled, can i go over to them and take the tetra they are holding onto?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

another thing, can one team go over to the opposing team and take their tetra preventing them from getting points?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

You could probably take a tetra away from another robot or block another robot from obtaining the tetra. That, in my book, is just defense.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

but what about the other case - taking a tetra from a fellow alliance member? that's not defense, just strategy.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

I would say being able to obtain tetras from your teammates is important. If for any reason a teammate's arm is disabled, and a tetra is smply left hanging, you would have to be able to get it off. Also, valuable time can be saved if one robot "fetches" tetras while another robot takes and hangs them. For example, if a small robot has speed but no arm but the larger has a great arm mechanism and is slow, it is a good way to save some time by perhaps using the "box on wheels" as the runner.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

oh well... but there are still 6 weeks for rules to change and designs to be made

Re: Removing Tetras
 

What about removing your own tetras? Is that legal?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

From rule S08 - HPs may only pass tetras to their team's robot when the robot is in the loading zone and disabled. HPs are not allowed to pass tetras to or interact with, robots of another team, even if on same alliance. Violations will result in disabling of HP's robot, and receiving team's robot...

So only my HP can pass a tetra to my robot. So there will be major coordination among HPs and robots, realizing who is where.

However, to really answer the question, if you're asking if your robot can take a tetra from another robot on the field, I would say yes. It's like picking it off the floor, or stealing it from an opponent.

I don't think I've seen a rule against it - if it's on the floor, or in their robot grip. But you cannot unstack it from the top. You can manipulate any scoring tetra you want.

Depends on the definition of blocking. From rule G15 -
You CANNOT block a robot from receiving a tetra if that robot is inside the loading zone already. You cannot put an arm, or anything to prevent that robot from getting it.
But I would imagine you could block the robot BEFORE it gets into the load zone. But if any part of their robot is inside that loading zone, you cannot block them. 30pt penalty for that.
I think it will be tough to see across the field to see if an opponent has any part of him inside their load zone, but if you bump them or something *accidentally*, it probably wouldn't be bad. It's the intentional blocking (which you'd think would look obvious) them from recieving a tetra or trying to pull them out of their load zone that would be bad.

No, as the rule stated earlier, you cannot remove a tetra from the top of a goal. You can move whatever you want around that's inside (under) the goal.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

I think you can hinder a robot from getting to a tetra or moving out of the loading zone

Re: Removing Tetras
 

You can only hinder him from getting a tetra if he is not touching any of his loading zone. One he touches his loading zone, you cannot interfere with his retrieval of a tetra.

I would imagine you could block him from leaving the loading zone though, but I would think you can't go inside his loading zone to pin him against a wall for 9sec.

Though - if he's already received his tetra, I don't know for sure if you can touch or enter his loading zone while he's still in it. Technically you wouldn't be "interefering with a robot retrieving a tetra". There's a rule that states "a robot can only occupy one loading zone at a time", but I don't see a rule that states "only one robot can occupy a loading zone at a time". (there's not that much room the zone, but that kind of statement would then mean two robots, regardless of alliance, could not touch a loading zone at same time).

Re: Removing Tetras
 

what if a -red- robot goes and sits in the blue loading zone, over both pads, to prevent blue robots from being manually loaded? ;D

i'm thinking it would be a good defense, but the red robot would not be provided the loading zone immunity. do you think they'd have to move?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

If the robot was over both pads then <G16> would apply:
A robot may occupy only one loading zone at a time. A violation will result in a 10-point penalty.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Could you take tetras from the opposing team's automatic loading zone and just keep placing them outside the field, preventing them from getting any tetras at their auto loading zone?

Re: Removing Tetras
 

If your arm goes out of bounds with the Tetra touching the ground but not the arm, I'm going to assume that the Tetra becomes an extension of the robot and thus you are disabled. Since you cannot use the Tetras as projectiles, and may only drop them on top of goals, I'm going to assume that you cannot.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Why would you want to do that? Those tetras that you put outside the field would come back into play eventually. And they have a second auto load zone they could use.

I haven't seen anything preventing you from taking tetras from their auto load zone, but any tetras outside will come back in.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

That is incorrect. You are not disabled if you touch outside the field, you are disabled if the referees determine that it is unsafe for any reason, or if you apply force to an out-of-bounds surface to get back.

Wetzel

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Yeah, I know.. it was just a question :) I was just wondering if that would be legal... it doesn't stop them from getting tetras, but it limits them to at most 3 loading stations.

This year's game sure is going to be interesting, though

Re: Removing Tetras
 

u cant remove tetras on right but if there not properly fitted on u can take it off

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Here is an interesting scenerio. You place a tetra of your color on a goal, but keep your robot in contact with that tetra. The other alliance stacks their tetras on top of yours, and you lift up your tetra and dump theirs off. Is this descoring?

Well, according to the definition of STACKED, "A TETRA is not considered STACKED if it is touching a ROBOT of the same alliance." Therefore, your tetra isn't stacked. However, the definition also says "A TETRA is STACKED when it is placed on top of a GOAL or on top of another STACKED TETRA." Therefore, because your tetra isn't stacked, your opponant's tetras were never stacked, and therefore removing them is not descoring.

Likewise, if your teams tetra is below an opponant's tetra and your robot brushes past your tetra, you are making your tetra not stacked, which makes your opponant's tetra not stacked, which means you are descoring. Therefore, touching your tetra under an opponants tetra is descoring even if neither tetra ever moves.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Good questions for Q/A.
I don't think they would allow that first part, because if I wanted to negate all the opponents points, or an ownage of a goal, I'd just have to go touch one of my tetras anywhere in that stack. Seems like a couple of these rules really circle around each other and end up not making sense when you really read into them.

I think that part about a tetra not being considered "stacked" if you're touching it, is in regard to getting the points at end of match for it. So just don't be touching any of your tetras at the end of the match.

Even though it's a rule, I don't like how you can't be touching your own tetra to get points if it's at the bottom of the stack. You're obviously not supporting it, and it will not fall off the goal if you were not touching it. But I guess it's just the rule... similar to last year with the 2x - you couldn't be touching it to consider it capped... but that was more understandable since the 2x balls were able to fall off easily... so if you were touching it in any way, that could be helping it to stay on the goal... Here my tetra may be under 8 other tetras, but it's not going anywhere! Oh well.
I'm sure we'll get clarification from FIRST.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

Not quite. At least according to how I read the rules, if you touched one of your tetras, it would only make the tetras above yours not scoring. Plus, if you touched the tetra, that would be descoring, and your opponant would get ownership of the goal. However, if you never broke contact, it isn't descoring, and, as far as I can tell, a legal way to prevent your opponant from scoring any points on that goal.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

I think we need a ruling from the rules committee if it is legal to remove opponents tetras from the FOP. IF uou could use your arm to lift a tetra that was on the field or in a goal, and then drop it (not throw) outside the field. I gues it wolud be perfectly legal to remove a tetra from a gola and place it so it was difficult for your opponent to put it back into play.

Re: Removing Tetras
 

ID979...
Regarding the definition of "stacked": If a tetra, which is not at the top of a stack, is being touched (not supported) by an alliance robot, are all higher tetras (not touching the robot) from that same alliance discounted as well?

A: They would not count.

Definitely do not want to touch any of your tetras on the stack! I guess if you touch a tetra of yours on the top, the below ones would count, but if you're touching the very bottom one, you've just negated all your points above it.

But yeah, I don't know if they would just consider YOURS not counted, or if they would include the opponents. That would seem awfully unfair to your opponent... Hope we find out for sure... the Q/A question above specifically states for one alliance... not including opponents tetras...ID1098 in Q/A has asked this....

Further..
ID: 966 Section: 4.3.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/11/2005
Q: Rule G18 precludes robots from removing tetras from a goal. What happens if the tetra removed is a tetra owned by the same alliance that the robot which removed the tetra was on?

A: This is okay as long as you do not violate any other rule.

I am sorta surprised at this. The manual says clearly that you cannot remove a tetra that is stacked on top of the goal. So I'm not sure why it's ok for me to go remove tetras from a goal, even if they're my own... Hmm..