Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Can anyone with a higher knowledge of the workings of the color-sensitive cameras enumerate upon the possible problems that may arise from confusion between the green panelings of the vision goals and green shirts worn by certain teams?

In short, is it plausible that robots might be distracted by certain shades of t-shirt green and be thrown off course?

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

What if you made your robot green to throw off other tracking bots? A little devious and non-GP, as I'll be the first to admit, but definitely a smart strategy...

Dave

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I like the way you think, Mr. Toast. I like the way you think.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Could be a problem if your partner also had a tracker.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

We're thinking the same thing over here...would flashing a green light or spray painting your robot green be legal? We still don't have manual access.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

There's an interesting thought.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

you do as Dave said .. communicate before the game and make sure you don't run into that problem ...

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Rule <R26> claims "No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system)."

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Or, use a switchable green light.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

yeah well think about it too if your goal is autonomously picking up that vision goal and your partners is too then you'll set there in a tug of war like on the animation... but you do have a valid point it could be a problem something we'll have to test I guess.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

In The robot

No mention of shirts though

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Thanks for the info on R26.

I'll post about team shirts.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Our school color is green, it's not intended to interfere with the sensors...

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Now how would the judges know if it was intentional? I happen to like the color gren very much and would love to have a green bot... :D

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

There is no rule against painting or anodizing your robot green (or any other color for that matter).

I haven't seen the sensors yet this year but I would hope they have the ability to adjust the sensitivity.

[EDIT] What I'm referring to per the rule is there's no rule against having a green bot to start with. You just can't change it's color from match to match.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Actually, as has been posted, there is.

Check out rule R26 in section 5.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Yeah, would have guessed that they have seen this comming.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Hey, Petey, it says your name in big letters above your posts.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Thank you, Roland. I am perfectly aware of that fact, naturally, but I appreciate your concern. :cool:

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

What about teams like MOE? They have always had Green robots and Green shirts, I doubt they would want to change that. The same goes for 233, are they not going to be allowed a pink robot this year?

Rule 26 says you aren't allowed to intefere INTENTIONALLY with the sensors, but that's just team spirit, not intentional distraction. In my book it doesn't seem fair to prevent these teams from their usual displays.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Yeah, but it seems even less fair to have a robot be unable to function due to an unrelated non-element of the game.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Well, then what is to stop my team from suddenly adopting this tradition?

If you paint your robot a color that you know will interfere with it, than isn't it intentional damage, since it is knowing damage?

I'd be surprised if FIRST doesn't explicate this.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

According to the rule, the way it is currently written, is that you can't keep changing it's color to give you an advantage, but it doesn't say you can't have a green robot that you built as a green robot during the six weeks.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Mmmm...chameleon robot.

I'm definitely asking FIRST this.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I will be VERY suprised if they didn't think of this.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I'm already VERY surprised they didn't use some other kinda sensor...like radio waves...or something

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I dont know the specs on the sensors, but I think MOE's green is light enough that it would know the difference between MOE green and vision-tetra green.
Eric

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

The cameras have a limeted field of view so it its unlikely that green shirts would distract them

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Keep in mind that this also applies for red, blue, and yellow robots, because the tetras themselves are red and blue and the loading docks are yellow.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

yeah i was thinking about this a lot-- for teams like swampthing and moe

but it does have to be directly in view-- hopefully it shouldn't mess things up that much

it seems like an interesting thing to do if you go against someone with that ability but as others stated it could hurt your partner

keep up the thinking ppl....:)

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Problem with that is you would have to have some sort of radio transmitter device on the Tetra (or some other such device to broadcast "I'm here!"). I know for a fact that the Tetras are going to see some heavy abuse; much more than the balls did last year. It probably wouldn't bode well for a transmitter to undergo a lot of shaking and movement. Likewise, it would be much more expensive.

Dave

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Wouldnt it be a good srategy to make your robot the color of the tetras so that all the other robots got messed up. if it really is that easy tyhen there can be some serious problems that result from that.

also i think the goal of the software is to focus on one thing and then follow that so maybe if you dont ask it to reaquire green or whatever in the middle of the run it would do just fine

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

We were discussing this earlier, and I would have thought the people at FIRST would have thought this through. It seemed that in the webcast, Dave Lavery's shirt had to be pretty close to the robot. This season should be pretty intersting.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I'm less worried about that than I am about my robot leaping bodily out of the ring and throttling me if it confused my blue shirt with a blue tetra.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I happen to know if a team in Vt that in fact has had a very nice looking Green robot. I'm sure this will be a question asked to First....it will be interesting to see what the answer is. (will teams be forced to give-up their identity color!)

-Quentin

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I am less concerned about a false trigger on the vision system from green anythings, (including humans) than I am about variations in lighting from venue to venue. When a material looks green to you it may not appear green to a camera depending on the color of the light. It may not even appear to a camera if the light is reflecting in the right way. I think that if you read the paper on visualization you might get a better handle on how this recognition works. I would think a robot would only get in trouble if it had a green stripe of approx the same height and width as the tetra and the same altitude and texture. What I am saying is test like crazy to be sure.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

the CMU cam can't hardware adjust it's sensitivity. Physically, the CMU cam is made of two pieces, the camera and the gpu. You can adjust the camera's focus; I'm not sure what the supplied gpu can do, hardware wise. I use the CMU cam (older one) on my own robots, it's fairly sensitive to color differences until it starts loosing focus.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Exactly--885 would lose quite a bit of their identity.

Here is the (two part) question that I posted in the forum:

Think about it--

If 811 built their normal red robot, and a team tried to sense the red tetras, the robot would be attracted to you, wouldn't it? Similarly, if a robot was built to sense the loading dock (yellow), and they went against Buzz, the Buzz robot could be mauled, couldn't it?

Interested to hear the answer. That's just one of the 7 or so questions I posted.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Excellent point.

It will be difficult to test like that when you're concerned about other robots, though.

Think about it--that robot followed Dave around, and it also followed the green tetra, if I'm not mistaken. Those were wildly different greens.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I do not believe they showed the robot following a green tetra. That was only in the CG-demo and the people-demo.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Well, certain members of our team, who will remain unnamed

*cough* me *cough*

have already begun a list of the top things the judges *DON'T* want to hear this year. The top of the list - "Well, it's your own fault for wearing that color. Don't blame us!"

We're just worried 'cause our shirts look like almost the same colors as the blue tetras. That might be a problem in practicing. I guess the same is true for green teams and red teams in practice matches. All I know is that I've already been instructed never to wear my tie-dye around the robot... it's already tried to get me enough times. :eek:

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Interesting then.

I just want to see the answer.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I notice a lot of people are posting about using the camera system to find "blue" and "red" and "yellow".

Really? My impression was you were just going to home into the green color that's only on the vision tetras. No need to look for other colors, the green is all you're interested in.

What was your thinking?

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

i really don't think that the colors will have that much of an effect, i have been thinking about this alot and i have also been looking up info on the sensors and a team should be able to set the sensors to only pick up the exact color and the sensor will mostly work in the area it is pointing in, remember in the kickoff the sensor was mounted high to follow Dave, since the tetras are kinda low to the ground there shouldn't be much of a problem. at least i hope not..

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

The loading stations have vision detectable red and blue on the floor by them; and the goals all have yellow HDPE triangles under them that can also be detected by the sensor.

-Daniel

Darn. There goes our strategy...
 

Now we (Team 365) need to change our strategy. We were going to build a tetrahedral-shaped robot named TETRA painted MOE green.

Back to the drawing board... :D

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

i think the best solution for this problem is simply gracious professionalism.

if the green teams (including mine) limit the use of green on their robot and wear a apron or something until autonomous is over i think we all can have fun without any unfair advantage.

I hadn't thought about this but i will bring it up during the next meeting and suggest getting something for the field crew. I think all green teams should do the same.

Simply GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM!!!

Re: Darn. There goes our strategy...
 

u weren't spoused to tell anyone great now we have to start all over again with a new name...

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I think that some teams will use it to home in on other colors. If you wanted your robot to go straight to the loading dock during autonomous mode so you could start picking up tetras ASAP, this would be the logical choice. And if there was another yellow robot, it could be devastating, no?

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Why do the red, blue, and yellow really matter?

I can understand the green, but not the red yellow, and blue

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

[Cheap 70s Batman Narrator voice] Could this be the end of the fearful MOE? Could this be the start of the demise of thunderchickens? Tune in next week to find out! [/Cheap 70s Batman Narrator voice]


Seriously though, the question I think a lot of people are asking about is the unintentional locking on to a green robot. I think the more valid concern is a devious team painting their robot green and playing "follow the leader" with the other robots.

Not that I don't think it would be hilarious to watch any green team get chased around a field by three opponents, it just wouldn't be in the (dare I say it) "Spirit of the rules".

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Red and blue are tetra colors.
Yellow is the color of the HDPE panels.

It's actually explicitly outlawed in Section 5.3, rule <R26>

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I think Kyle is right, it probably WONT be a problem. Either the lighting requirements will be very specific or the flashy colors won't be in the same location as the sensors. I don't know how many people are really going to bother with blue, red, and yellow, seeing as it's purpose is the same idea. Unless you want to like...have your robot go for an opposing color. Hrm...

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

They are also the color of the panels at the loading stations, if you were so inclined to go there.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I'll make sure to post FIRST's reply.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

If they make any new rules regarding shirts well then my sympothy goes out to you MOE

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

That actually sounds (to me) like a very good idea, it could most likely help with lighting differences encountered between practice competition.

But what sounds good in theory does not always work well in reality -_-; so we'll see

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I personally never thought of this.

I'm pretty sure they're not going to ban the use of all greens, reds, blues, and yellows.

But this does indeed pose a problem.

Question: I know the tetras are blue and red, but what would you need to seek them out for? Unless maybe from the automated loading dock (in autonomous mode)... but surely you wouldn't make them look for the blue/red on the vision tetras, because it'd be twice the work, right?

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

whoah whoah whoah, do we know what SHADE of green we'll be going for??? we didnt get a sample of green in OUR kit! (and it wasnt on the list either). :confused:
sooo will we just test w/ some sort of nylon green? what if its different?!!?! :ahh:

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

You might be able to put your robot into a tetra-seeking mode on the other side of the field.

Or, you might send it to find automated loading docks and load during autonomous.

Or, it might just latch on to another team's blue or red robot. Forget the tetras.

--Petey

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

From the brief look at the software (I didn't have a 12v battery charged so I couldn't test anything :-( ) I believe there is someway to create a dead zone that the camera will ignore. The camera can be connected to the computer and used w/ a java application so that colors can be adjusted and matching patterns can be tested. I'm not sure if the data is downloaded into the carmera or if the configuration must be included in the programming

David

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I noticed that there was a section on colors in the FIRST documents page, but the link was broken when I tried to retreive it.

I have to admit that as soon as I saw those green tetras, I could envision 5 bots converging on a certain team's robot and trying to pick it up. :-)
But I think that distractions on the field are simply something we're going to have to take into account and deal with.

Steve

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

You'd look for blue or red to find the panel on the ground in front of the loading stations, so you could go over there during autonomous, I presume.
There's documentation on FIRST's website that tells you how to make the appropriate colors. The link is down at the moment, but I think you may be able to get it in one of the other documents. Here's the link in case it comes back:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/200...int_Colors.PDF

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Wouldn't the opponents wearing green shirts be too far away? The bot in the demonstration didn't pick up the shirt till he was really near the bot. It might not have been on before, but do those things have long range?

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I don't think it will really be a problem in most cases:

Assume your robot is programmed to begin looking for green as soon as the match starts. To avoid robots running into one another, the bot looking for the tetra (decided upon by the alliance) would probably be in the "B" position (the one a little forward). It would somehow do a sweep of the field looking for green in a few quick seconds, and once it saw something green it would move towards it. For an ally to be the target, it would have to race out and get in the way of the green-sensing robot before it found either vision tetra. For an opponent to be the target, it would need to race across the field and be noticed by the robot before either tetra was seen, which would be pretty tough and clearly the only reason to do that would be interference, which the judges would notice and then penalize the team.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

The vision system has a few different modes. One mode (that most directly applies to the challenge) returns the location and bounding boxes of blobs of color. In the code, it most likely takes these bounding boxes, sorts them by the similarity to the target color, and plots a path depending on the blob's X position or something. It would not be difficult to A) decrease the range of colors or B) apply another level of filtering to determine the height of the blob off the playing field to filter out humans or robots (tall ones at least).

All I am waiting for is someone to pick up a serial CompactFlash interface that are always in Circuit Cellar, and write the frame captures and show a post-match movie :).

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Regarding using the camera to find the loading stations and/or goals:

You know exactly where these are. The camera would be less important in locating them then it would be the vision tetras. If this new scripting language works as well as it looks like it does, you can very easily dead reckon to exactly where you want to be, sans camera.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

This does seem like a large problem. Our Team 773 The Kingsville Kukes have always been green we use green to promote our local Green Houses. this is a large role in our funding. I don't see First telling us we cant use green on our robot. Also are they specifying a paint that the tetras will be done in. it would be a shame to program for weeks to a specific shade of blue and have it not work at competition.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

why don't you go work with the vision system some before you go needlessly arguing over green robots, green shirts, and other distractions. IF in the process of trying to make it work you find that it is easily thrown off, then come here to ask questions about how to correct this problem in detection.

Its something any of us interested in vision will half to test, but just ranting back and fourth about all the possibilities of false detection without ever trying the system is a huge waste of time.

Personally, my guess is the focal range of the camera won't be entirely too large, probably green robots on the other side of the field won't be a problem, and defenitely a crowd in the background won't matter, but i'm anxious to work with the vision system before i commit to saying this is the case.

But i urge you - go try something with it before you sit here on chiefdelphi and needlessly banter back and fourth over it, without experience with the device you have no way of knowing, but by working with it some you can learn an awful lot.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I Have done some experimentation with the CMU cam and this may very well be a problem with primitive code implementations such as the one provided by FIRST. In order to set the sensors to work reliably in a broad range of light conditions it is necessary to make the tracked color range somewhat large. I have seen some team T-Shirts that pretty closely match the vision tetra colors. The good news is that there are some simple (well relatively) techniques to prevent this by mounting/aiming the camera properly and having a good understanding of the camera's virtual window settings, noise filter settings and how to use them. I feel that FIRST has already babied everyone enough so i am not goign to hold your hand and write your code for you, but i will help with any questions.

To what rule are you refering to regarding you can start but cannot change to the green color?

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

rule R26 in section 5 page 11 it says " No devices are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the operation of the vision system
( i.e changing robot color to confuse opponent's vision system."

Re: Darn. There goes our strategy...
 

Now that'll be a sight to see.
Wait until your first regional and five other robots converge on MOE, hoist it up and cap a goal with you.:yikes:

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

As much as I understand your argument, I think it would just be safer to not use any green paint this year. I would hate to get to inspection and have them tell me that I can't put the 'bot on the field because it's green. Everyone will be trying to get their green 'bots through inspection saying that their team colors include green. It would be good to not be at the mercy of the judges.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I think Scott and a few others are on to something here. The sensor is a camera capable of color matching and shape matching. It is not just a color sensor. I think we are blowing this out of proportion. Thunder chickens, don't change your shirt color and other teams don't worry about your robot color and MCs don't go for black shirts until we get some real data about the software and the camera. There are some pretty cool and knowledgeable people at IFI and FIRST, don't you think they would have thought of the problems.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

A few items that you might want to consider before you go heading down too many blind alleys:

- There are three possible starting locations for your robot. Pick any of the three. You know what the field should look like from that vantage point.

- There are eight possible starting locations for the vision tetras. Those locations relative to the robot starting locations are known and fixed.

- The number of robot location/vision tetra position permutations is finite.

- The CMUcamII allows you to trim the field of view to a pre-defined area of the video frame, so extraneous items that are not of interest (ie. off-field items) can be ignored.

- For a given field of view, if two or more objects of the target color are in view and the CMUcamII is requested to locate the target, it will return the location (in X-Y coordinates within the frame) of the largest color blob of the desired color.

- For a set of given obejcts of the same size, closer objects will appear larger (duh!)

So you really have only one question to ask: can you use the camera to look from a given point toward another given point, and determine if the second point is occupied by a certain known object or not?

-dave

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Thanks, Dave. I'm fairly sure I understood some fraction of that.

I'm not sure if it completely solves the problem, but it provides some direction, at least. Although - For a given field of view, if two or more objects of the target color are in view and the CMUcamII is requested to locate the target, it will return the location (in X-Y coordinates within the frame) of the largest color blob of the desired color. scares me.

I'll forward this on over to the controls people.

I'm still waiting on the "official answer" from the FRC Q&A forum, for anyone who is breathlessly awaiting it.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

During our Kickoff meeting, we brought this up. The CMUcamI, which we used in a different competition last year to track a orange cone, could pick it up at around 30-45 feet depending on lighting, so, this being CMUcamII, it would imply that it might have a longer range. One solution to just finding the colors on the field would be to mount it low to the ground and to angle it forwards, to limit the distractions it can recieve from its sorroundings.

Edit: During the competition, one of the other robots did chase someone from the crowd who was wearing a brightly colored red shirt when it was going for a orange cone.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

hmmmm.... maybe they don't want it so easy.....
i'm sure you could program in SOFTWARE to ensure that it is a vision tetra...
i.e after recognizing the green color you measure the length of the green... like move the camera left and right and see how long it takes to "lose" the green ....
i'm sure you could also adjsut the camera to dif light settings based on the beginning of the match... maybe make your robot drive forward to a known positon of color and register that value to calibrate the camera... however if there is ALOT of variable settings like diamond plate reflecting more light near the starting point etc.. some difficulties may come up!

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Take a good look at the camera documentation. You will find several things that will help you out.

1) Each object is tracked by a bounding box. This is key. Remember it. Its important. Don't forget it! A bounding box is the smallest possible box that will enclose the color object. Consider the difference in view between a person in a shirt and a vision tetra. What can the bounding box tell you?

2) The field of view of the camera isn't as wide as you would think.

3) The percieved size of a distant object is related to the sine function. A good hint: Percieved Height is sort of = Height * (1 / radius). Draw a picture, think about what sine is, and see if you can figure that one out.

Kevin

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

i wonder how the sensor would work if a competition was held at chatsworth high school all the lights are ORANGE!!!! hahahahahahah :D

Re: Darn. There goes our strategy...
 

That would be something to see. But Id be a little scared when i saw a robot picking up another 120 lb robot without breaking.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Guys,
Dave has spoken, read and believe, then get to work.
RoboticsDude, we've done that, many times. No damage, dents build character.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Teams Like Us Moe And Element All Have Bright Lime Green robots. im shure if you want your robots sensors to work you should probaly take some time to discriminate dark green from lime green

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Update from the FIRST Q&A. Please take note that these aren't official until they are addressed in an official manual update (as Q&A's are occasionally contridicted or flip flopped).

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Which mode do you think the cam was in when they had the demo during the kickoff? I saw it followed the guy's green shirt, but his shirt's color is different from vision tetra green. If they had it calibrated for tetra green and it followed his shirt, can it really discriminate between his shirt and the tetra? I still have yet to even power up the cam, but that should happen today.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Just a thought here. Yes it is LEGAL to have your robot any color that you may want. But, and this is absolutely not an "Official FIRST Position" or anything, just an independent thought (I am allowed to have one per week... :) ), you have to ask yourself if it is SMART to have your robot certain colors. If you pick a color for your robot that you know is very close to the color of certain objects that will be sought by the vision system, what will be the result?

You know that the vision systems of the robots on the field will be calibrated to look for green. If your robot is a similar hue, then you know there is a significant probability that it will be detected by the vision system of the other robots - INCLUDING YOUR ALLIANCE PARTNERS. After about the second time that an alliance partner robot is prevented from grabbing the vision tetra and scoring bonus points because your robot was a confusing color and distracted their vision system, your team is likely to become a pariah. If I were an alliance captain picking teams for the elimination rounds, I don't care how freaking good your robot may be, I would never ever pick you as a partner if I saw you repeatedly screw up the autonomous period performance of your own alliance. The risk to the alliance would just be too great. There are lots of other implications as well, but I think you get the point.

So, once again, it comes down to a simple question: coloring your robot green (or even yellow, the color of the targets in the goals) may be legal, but is it smart?

For the kickoff demo, the camera was calibrated for the color of my shirt. It was able to properly discriminate between the shirt and the green vision tetras.

-dave

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Once everyone is able to use the sensors and see how well they are able to detect different shades or a color is when we will all know if it is truly smart to have a green robot and what shade if green at all. Thank you Dave for clearing up most of this mess about the sensors and how smart it is to use green or yellow color bots. If MOE green does have a negative effect with the sensors then MOE can be mostly black with green on it but we most likely will always keep MOE green on our shirts, robots and everything else that we can get our hands on. Teams that also use green as there color should be able to use another color that is identified with their team. ex. MOE is green and BLACK so using black is still ok because it is still one of our colors. Another question about the sensors, Last year our robot had "kilts" that were colored black and green plad pattern would that also draw the sensors to us or would the non flat color keep us safe?


Lets wait a week or so and play with the sensors and see what we learn then the question will be answered.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I think what Dave is saying is that if you decide to use green on your robot you are playing with fire. Honestly, most people know MOE's traditional team colors but nobody is going to care and will become irate with you if you mess up their autonomous mode. Quite frankly, if you keep a green color on your robot knowing it might jeopardize someone's autonomous mode you are being completely selfish.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

Dave makes a very good point here - One that I didn't think of. Being bright green may be cool, but it could be a turnoff if you have an alliance going for the Vision Tetras. Also, Dave gets a bonus Krispie Kreme for making me break out my dictionary to look up "pariah." ;)

Bad news Kyle: It looks as if the paint being used is nearly identical to MOE Green and ThunderChicken Green. :mad:

P.S. - pa·ri·ah ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-r)
n.

1. A social outcast: “Shortly Tom came upon the juvenile pariah of the village, Huckleberry Finn, son of the town drunkard” (Mark Twain).
2. An Untouchable.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I am not saying it like that, What i meant is we are going to be testing the sensors to see what the color differences it can pick up, IF our green dose have an effect or even if a large majority of people on these forums say that green has an effect we will gladly not have a green robot in the spirit of GP. I was trying to say that we will find a way to have green somewhere in places that will not effect other teams sensors. I am sorry if I sounded like we were going to use green no matter what that was not what i intended to say, what i was trying to say is that since we have no all tried everything with the new sensors there is still a possibility that green wont have an effect, most likely it will though, and if it does, we as a team will take the appropriate actions when we decorate our robot so not to have a negative effect on any other team.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

It is illegal to have anything that can distract another robot.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I don't see any problems with Green Robot / T-Shirts guys. :rolleyes:

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

hey what if you made a robot to throw out like a green flag into the field
ha think about that but don't steal it.....

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

well then you would be intentionally removing a part of your robot and that is illeagal in accordance of G24

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

A new thought. what if you slapped a panel on your robot that was mostly the same size and shape as the panel on a vision tetra? Then write some fast dead reckoning routines and see if you can occupy the possible position of an opponent's vision tetra in time to distract and confuse their vision system. If you can do this along with other useful things, it makes you a prime partner for a team that is already really good with the vision tetra.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

The only thing I could see maybe throwing that off is that there are so many dirrent spots the vision tetras could be in. It would seem you would almost have to program a Dead reckoning program for each position which are randomly selected.

I'd also be worried about if that would be concerned a knowledgeable effort to mess with the opposing robots autonomous mode.

But if this was legal all round I could see where this could be useful.

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

R26 forbidds any additional parts that are intendet to interfer with any of the sensors or the vision system ...

Re: Concerns regarding the green paneling/green shirts
 

I just hope that in practice the robots dont start attacking fans. I think FIRST is plotting against moe just like when they said no more sticks and load objects.