Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

Based on this rule, is it legal to push a robot out of a manual loading zone while the human player is approaching, thus making the handoff illegal? (I can't find anything that would make such a maneuver illegal at an automatic loading zone.)

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

No,you cannot, based on rule G15, no interfering... it's stated in a few other threads here too.
Once a robot is in the loading zone, you cannot touch or interfere with a robot retrieving a tetra.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

This rule is especially relevant while in human loading zones. Safety is paramount in everything FIRST does. Imagine how dangerous it would be if a robot could shove your robot, as your human player is reaching onto the field right in front of it.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

I wonder if FIRST would go as far as to disable the attacking robot.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

Both rules <SO5> and rule <G15> clearly state against this. Wouldn't the human player walking over be part of the process of receiving a tetra?

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

It shouldn't be a surprise. FIRST has always been very vigilant when safety is breached.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

yes, <S05> states that not only will you be disabled, you will be DQed.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

*sigh* Completely missed G15. Yeah, that's pretty clear. I can understand the safety issue in the manual loading stations (hence why I wondered), but I would think that being able to push robots at the automatic loading stations, where there is not much of a safety issue, would be a good defensive strategy. I guess not.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

Yeah, it seems like you get DQ - 30pts if you interfere in the HP load side, but if you interfere on the auto load side, it's just a 30pt deduction.

I wonder how they will judge that, since it states a DQ for impeding the "trade-off between HP and robot"... so does that mean you might only get 30pt deduction if the HP didn't get there yet (not yet handing off tetra), or a DQ-30 no matter what, if you interfere at any time on the HP side?

I'd almost rather see the same penalty for both sides, for interference any time in load zone, being DQ - 30pts.... just for consistency sake. But at least it seems like the number and variance of penalties has been reduced this year.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

There is a safety issue on the auto side because there are field attendants over there. If you want to block a robot, block them before they get to, or touch the loading zone.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

In many a situation, 30pts isnt much better than a DQ anyway....
but still, i wouldnt run the risk anyway, even if your up by more than 30 and they might steal a row and somehow come out with a win or something, to risky.
Also, if it hits, or comes dangerously close to hitting, the field attendant, DQ as well, as they might not be completly out of the area by the time the robot goes for the next tetra.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

Do you know if the 30 pts penalty is an alliance or team penalty? If its an alliance penalty, I suppose the partners won't be all that happy with the team that reduced the alliance score and also shot their chances of getting the bonus for having all 3 teams back home (I am assuming the bad robot will be turned off immediately and not have time to drive too far) That should eliminate alot of interaction around that area of the field. I will also assume that the penalty will still apply even after the human player gets back on the pressure pad - this could be a good place to stay until the coast is clear!

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

I don't know how they would apply a 30pt penalty to just one team, since the score is an alliance score. So the 30pts would come off that alliance's score. If someone gets a DQ, I believe it's a DQ for the alliance.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

If in having a pushing match or playing defense, one or both of the robots happen to cross over or accidentally touch the loading zones, but there is obviously no intent to use the loading zone, is it still considered illegal?

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

You are allowed to stop them from getting into the loading zone in the first place though! :yikes:

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

That would be a good question for Q/A. I think the whole "intent to use the loading zone" would be a big debate. But I agree in that if you are in a pushing situation, and you push them into the loading zone, they could claim that they were trying to get a tetra and that it should be a penalty.
I don't know how they will enforce, interpret, or play out this rule. I think it will be difficult since the rule allows you to be touching any part of the zone to be considered inside it. The rule states that that zone is not intended as a "safe" zone for teams to squat in during the match, but as a safety issues so that tetras can be loaded without injury. In a pushing match scenario, I think it would be difficult for the opponent to see across the field and know if his prey is touching that zone or not. I don't know. This one will be an interesting rule.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

I'm not yet clear on exactly how these penalties will be imposed, but it is possible to penalize a single team. While each team in an alliance gets the same score, any individual team's score could be reduced by the penalty amount. We are supposed to be working WITH our alliance partners, but we cannot control their actions. And it would be unfortunate for the entire alliance to be penalized for the ungracious actions of a single team.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

Hmm... You know... when I read G06, about a HP leaving the HP pad too soon, the "team" will get a 10pt penalty. Then if it's serious, that "team" may be disabled and DQ'd.

In S05 rule, a robot may not impede the hand-offs of tetras, or the auto loading by field attendant, or the robot will be disabled, and DQ of the "alliance".

But.. in reading G15 with the no interfere rule, it does say that if a violation occurs, a 30pt penalty assessed to the "alliance"... they throw 3 separate flags (10pt ea).

There are some unclear penalty pt assessments in G13, G17, and G21. Just says a 10pt penalty will be thrown (for the respective violation), but doesn't say to team or alliance.

G22 says is the coach touches the controls, the robot will be disabled and "team" DQ'd.

There may need to be some clarification from FIRST on some of these and how they will deduct points and assess penalties in all cases.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

is anyone as worried as i am about just accidentally running into a loading robot? seems quite dangerous considering the consequences...

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

THat is a serious punishment, yes, but I can understand why it's there. Having the human players in close contact with the robots like that could result in some very severe injuries happening, especially during autonomous mode.

Come to think of it, that seems like it would be the only real issue here. Accidentally running into a robot during driver control shouldn't happen often, but it could definitely occur in autonomous.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

I am curious how they will ultimately define loading zone. Does your robot need to touch the colored triangle? If my robot has a four foot arm, it could pick from the station without entering that area. Can the robot be pushed while it's am picking up the tetra even if the frame is outside the loading zone?

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

Can somebody submit this query to the Q&A if it isn't there already?

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

I think the zone is including the space above the triangle on the floor, so if youre bots 4 foot arm crossed that space while getting a tetra then anyone hitting you would get all the same penalties as if the whole bot where in the zone. You cannot use this to stay safe the intire game with a movable second arm because of some rule or other saying that you can't stay in the loading zones. :yikes:

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

I do think that the G15 interference rule should be better defined, due to all the questions... but...

It says you can't touch a robot that is touching it's loading zone (the triangle) and retrieving a tetra.
So it implies that if any robot is touching it's loading zone, it can be retrieving a tetra, and since you have to be "in" your loading zone to retrieve a tetra, touching the zone is then considered "in" the loading zone...
This implies you physically have to be touching the triangle on the ground.. and not have an arm suspended in the air above it.

There is the concern from earlier in a pushing match, if the two bots accidentally, or unknowingly, touch or get into one of their loading zones, then how do they determine if the "intention" was for the bot to pick up a tetra? If I'm pushing someone near their zone, they may decide "ok, I'm near, I'll just go into my loading zone and get a tetra instead of fighting with this guy".... so where do you draw the line of intentional interference, vs "happening" to be in contact with the other bot before and then as he enters his loading zone.. or even pushing him there yourself...

The auto side, I don't know how they can judge intent. On the HP side, maybe they can judge intent on if the HP leaves his pad to go supply a tetra. If it were just a pushing match, and two bots roll over the load zone, the HP doesn't have to leave the pad if they weren't planning to load at that time. Then as soon as the HP leaves his pad, that signified a robot is gonna load, so the pusher better back off. That would be hard for the pushing driver to really see, but maybe if you're anywhere close to the opponents load zone, you play "safe" defense on them to avoid penalties.. i.e. if you see them touching the zone, back off immediately.

I dunno, maybe it won't be so bad, but there could be some instances of confusion or unawareness, and possibly debate.

Re: Pushing robots out of loading zone
 

I think you have to intend to get a tetra for it to be considered a "safe zone." However, how will referees be able to judge intent?