Universal goal location designations
 

It seems to me that in order for team coaches to communicate with their drivers, and their two alliance coaches, there should be a consistant terminology for identifying goal positions. We discussed it and would suggest the following:

Left 3 . . . . . Center 3 . . . . . Right 3

Left 2 . . . . . Center 2 . . . . . Right 2

Left 1 . . . . . Center 1 . . . . . Right 1

Where one is the closest to the driver, and three is the farthest.

As long as people know their right from their left (with which I'll admit I still have some difficulty) this would make it easy to instruct a driver or suggest to an alliance member to go after a specific goal.

Whatever the terminology is it should be agreed on between teams prior to a match, but I think it would really make it easy if we have something universal that all teams already know.

What do you think out there, and how do we spread the word? :cool:

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Well, how about one is closest to the crowd, and three is closest to the screen? This would be helpful for team-to-team interaction, seeing as they have different driving stations.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I like the idea of always going from left to right since that is more natural. This way, it doesn't matter what side you're on. Same idea goes for the row further from you being 3.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Row one would be the row closest to all the driver stations
Row three the farthest

The opposing alliance would be referring to your row one as row three, but that wouldn't matter

The crowd and screen locations won't necessarily be consistent between venues

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Why don't you make them more obvious? how about this...

Left Back... Center Back... Right Back
Left Mid... Center Mid... Right Mid
Left Front... Center Front... Right Front

Then people don't have to memorize numbers to correspond to goals. Its simple, you can't mistake Back with Front.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

You could also see them as columns and call out near middle or far, 1,2, and three.

Far 1..........Far 2..............Far 3

Middle 1........Middle 2........Middle 3

Near 1..........Near 2..........Near 3

What do you think is Simpler to remember?

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Center Middle is a lot of sylables
It would be nice if they were all 2 sylable designations.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

How about just like this...

Opposing alliance

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

Your Alliance

Easiest way to remember this is to think of it like the number pad on your keyboard, but I guess you could also flip it and think of it like a phone keypad. The point is, you can use this if you don't want to think "left center right" or "close middle far".


I think this numbering system is also used to express directional motions in some fighting games.

2 3 6 + P, anybody?

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Mostly one syllable which is nice, but I'm concerned about the memorization.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Yeah, I know what you mean, but that's what you used, so I figured I'd keep it. And I didn't think Mid Mid would be so great.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Maybe:

Far 1..........Far 2..............Far 3

Mid 1........Mid 2........Mid 3

Near 1..........Near 2..........Near 3


Got to go out now, but I'll check back late tonight

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I think that the easiest way would be best :D
I' m prob just gonna be like
their left...their center....their right
center left...center center...center right
Our left...our center...our right
BUT
it will probably end up being me screaming :ahh: that one their while pointing to one

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

While you may think this can be civil now, on the field I think it will go a little something like this..

"WHAT ARE YOU DOING??!! CAP THAT ONE!!! *points*...NO!!! NOT THAT ONE!!! THAT ONE!!!"

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I know it's going to be crazy with 6 bots on the field but I do think it will help if people are speaking the same language.

Are there any experienced drivers out there that have a suggestion. You're the ones getting screamed at. What do you want to hear? :cool:

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

My suggestion (from opponents’ side toward you)


Each address is unique, and obvious. Opting to call opponents side ‘Far’ instead of 'opponent' or something… just because they start their doesn’t mean they will control those towers =D

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

OK, here's the shortest, and seems to be easy to remember:

Far Left........Far Mid........Far Right

Mid Left........CENTER........Mid Right

Near Left......Near Mid.......Near Right

Everything's two sylables :D:D:D:D:D

Hope you like it, i think its what i'll use

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

i like.

FL, FC, FR
CL, CC, CR
HL, HC, HR

I would say either this one (in the above quote) or the number-pad one:

opponent
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
your alliance


since our minds tend to think right to left, top to bottom, this should be pretty easy to remember

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Another idea is to refer to the blue and red ends of the field


Of course you would have to remember which end of the field you are on.

If you eliminate left and right (ie. blue auto, blue center, blue human or blue back, blue center, blue front) this would also work for the announcer calling the match.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Our team wanted to standardize on the number pad format, but after seeing this thread, I think the above format is better in a pressure situation (which I don't think will be unusual in this year's game).

I would like to suggest a slight change to the above, namely saying the row before the column. That seems a little easier for me to spit out for some reason. So it would be "Row 1 left" and which would be abbreviated as follows:


3 left . . . . . 3 center . . . . . 3 right

2 left . . . . . 2 center . . . . . 2 right

1 left . . . . . 1 center . . . . . 1 right

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

i think it is a great idea Mr. A did you tell our engineers about this yet?

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I believe that there are a total of 23 "known" positions on the field for each alliance's robot. Count out loud if you want:
nine (9) goals
four (4) visual tetras to go after
two (2) auto-load stations
two (2) manual-load stations
three (3) starting locations (OK, pretty much a "known")
three (3) finishing stations

Therefore, I suggest that everyone memorize the military radio alphabet. Calls on the filed might go something like this:
"Team ALPHA, drive your robot to location ZULU"
"Team BRAVO, drive your robot to loader at location "TANGO"

You get the picture......
Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Dog, Echo, Foxtrot.........
Over and out for now

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I polled our coaches, drivers, button pushers, and human players as well as the mentors, teachers, and a few parents. The number pad idea was the winner with above 90%. Perhaps a poll is called for? We are in favor of a universal code...we would like to keep it simple.

Ken

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

The number pad has one distinct advantage over the other designations. A coach can communicate which goal to go to by simply showing his fingers. This is real handy when you are surrounded by screaming throngs on Einstien and can't hear each other anyway. Not that I know the above from personal experience, but I've heard that it can be hard to talk down there. In such noisy situations non-verbal signals are really helpful. Or do you think the guys on carriers wave those sticks around for the fun of it?

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I like Pakrat's suggestion
Far Left........Far Mid........Far Right

Mid Left........CENTER........Mid Right

Near Left......Near Mid.......Near Right

It's probably what I'll be using. Any driver can understand it, even if it's their first time looking at the field. If you tell a new driver to cap goal 8, they'll probably have no idea what your taking about. But if you say cap the Far Mid goal, they'll know which one.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

It seems to me that the number pad concept has the highest chance of causing confusion… however it is the fastest. Saying “five” vs “Center Center”
Although it may be harder for someone who hasn’t heard of the key pad naming scheme. Where as Center Center is obvious. In all things there are trade offs…

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I would hope that each team has their own way of communicating goals between themselves atleast... My driver better know what goal 8 is when i start screamin at him.. I would hope that there is better ties between the coaches and the drivers that they would not know what terminology the coach is using.. a universal would be great.. especially between alliance members.. the numbers seem to be the easiest, but i would drop #6 and put CENTER in there... that is a no-brainer to anyone, without thinkin.
j

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I think right now I like Doug Hogg's suggestion best.
Using numbered rows allows you to use hand signals (one, two, or three fingers) for the number of the row, and point your thumb left, up, or right for position.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Or one other thought that's easy with hand signals:

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

The Gila Monsters plan on making laminated index cards of whichever universal form is finally decided upon by the CD community. We will give the cards to all the coaches of all the teams at the Arizona, Colorado, and Las Vegas Regionals.

Ken

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I like that but i am thinking maybe a poll should be run and the winner come ship time should be used universally as by then people may have been able to practise and stuff and know which they prefer

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I'm for this one:

Far Left........Far Mid........Far Right

Mid Left........CENTER........Mid Right

Near Left......Near Mid.......Near Right


Additionally, if we come to a consensus, 1257 will print cards for the NYC and Annapolis regional. (Good idea, Ken)

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

If it helps, HERE is a link to a 11'x17" graphic of the playing field that you can use as a roadmap for the drivers and strategy team. You can write alternative roadmap paths on these sheets and label each goal withthe numbering/naming scheme you've recommended here.

By the way, don't forget that you should also have identifying names/numberf for the four loading stations, so that the drivers can hear verbal commands.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

How about auto 1, auto 2 human 1 and human 2 where the ones are the closer.

The input on this thread has been great.
Printed cards are a great idea.
Over the weekend I will summarize and set it up for a vote.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I would have to say that the CENTER based system is best. The system is very general and simple, and uses really basic instinctive visual descriptions/interpretations. It will definitely depend on one's use of descriptive language though.

The problem with the number system is the preparation of the mind. People will have to begin memorizing the numbers each goal is represented by. When someone is going to refer to the far right goal, they'll have to recall the number that represents it, which may take a while longer for some people. On the other hand, over time and practise, the referencing will become easier from experience, but not everyone can do it.

Flash cards, as nice as they sound, are too much to handle, literally. Having a ton of flash cards in your hand, selecting the right one, and showing both teams of your alliance the card where they have to take their eyes off the field will end up having them all fall on the floor.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I hate to say this, but...

No matter what, if any, agreed standard there is on Chiefdelphi.com most likely will not be used by the entire community. There are more teams that don't read the message boards than teams that do.

There are also many teams that go with a certain terminology and stay with it, no matter what. If a team has used it all along, its what they all understand and what they'll use.
I have already started using Mid left, near left, center, etc. and have been getting other members on the team to use it as well.


As for the auto loading zones and HP loading zones, I don't think that it's going to matter much.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Now that we have all shipped our 'bots, how about we bring this subject back to the fore front. I like this version:

Perhaps I would make one change. How about we call the CENTER goal MIDDLE instead. It already says left, middle and right for the far and near row. Thoughts???

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

I have to agree here. I think of the number system as something the driveteam will have to "translate" in their brain before actually taking action. The coach will have to make sure they're calling out the right one they intend, and the driveteam will need to make sure they're translating the same thing. Think of it like a foreign language (unless you're totally fluent)... To speak it, you sometimes translate in your head prior to speaking it. I have a feeling that under the pressure, and heat of the moment, people will find the number system difficult to react on and confusion will erupt.

Even if it's more than a couple syllables, if it's easier for the brain to translate, it might end up being quicker. So.. far left, far center, middle left, middle right, near left, near right.. you instinctively know what that means w/o thinking about it.

Also - what's the likelihood of people spending much time on the far end of the field? We'll find out, but right now assuming a relatively small amount of time that you spend over there, the extra syllable might not be a big concern...

For the home row right in front of you, you can just make that "left, middle, right"... and for the other two rows add words like "far", "middle".. Center goal can be "center".

Personally, I think that calling the rows "1-2-3" with 3 being farthest, and then using "left, center, right" with it, that's good. Otherwise, using "near, middle, far" for the rows would be easiest for the brain to translate. Everyone will figure it out when they get on the field and try different commands. It needs to be short commands, but instinctive to translate.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

See the other thread, i've set up a poll so we can decide between the entire populous.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=35314

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Stephen,

Thank you for all your hard work.

Ken

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

These systems would only work completely for the drivers, but I feel that a system must be in place that can be used anywhere on the field, from the drivers to the audience.

Because each alliance has it's own designated side, and I am under the assumption that the colored lights will be back, I would propose calling the "rows" blue, red and center. And because the views of left, right, far and home all require the audience to be sitting on the side, they should not be used because my "home left" is "far right" to the person on the other side. I would strongly suggest a universal naming system that anyone can recognize, regardless of their position in the fieldhouse, such as:

Red HP ......... Center HP ........ Blue HP
Red Middle .... The Center ...... Blue Middle
Red Auto ...... Center Auto ..... Blue Auto

The Center can have many names that could easily be recognized, such as "the tall goal," "7-footer(only if the audience knows this...)," etc.

I also strongly discourage the use of a numbering system unless there are numbers printed on the field. I believe the system must be universal and simple, something that requires minimal work to understand. Numbers are confusing unless you have an origin, which must be determined depending on where you are on the field. In short, I believe none of the current options are practical or universal for use this year with the drivers and the audience.

_Alex

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

For communicating with your drive team and other drive teams/coaches during a match I think

Opposing Alliance Station
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
You Alliance Station

would be the easiest because it requires little thinking. I think just about everybody uses a telephone fairly often, making that number sequence more natural. Plus it's quick and easy to say. I think left/right, far/close/middle could get a little confusing in the heat of competition.

For talking about matches afterwords in the pit and such, I think a system using the red/blue sides, and the human player/autoloader sides would be easiest because those won't change based on orientation.

~Allison K

PS - If we could decide on one universal designation, This could be an interesting test of the reach/influence of chiefdelphi.

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

But also , i use my computer keypad a lot, and i think a lot of others here would as well...(I actually have to use it at work for selling timber in sizes, and to log in )

Re: Universal goal location designations
 

Center is distinct. You can call to cap the middle column or protect the center line and everyone knows what you mean. The word "near" is easier heard over the background noise than "home".