cap high or fast
 

would you rather be able to cap high or fast. And please do not put down you do both unless you have video to prove it.

Re: cap high or fast
 

if i had t o chose one, i would say fast. You can also use your arm to stick them under the goals if you need to and if there are 8 goals (say you cant make the center but can get one or two on the others ) then there is still plenty of oppurtunity for getting points. I hope ours can do both but we havn't had a center goal or more than 3 tetras to test it out on...

Re: cap high or fast
 

Looking at the past games:

2003: much alike this year's game, except with stacking tetras.. many teams designed to be able to stack high, but in the end you rarely saw any teams stack at all. The game turned in a pushfest and who could control the bridge.

2004: Hanging/Capping: more teams turn to hanging than capping

2005: A fast, strong robot can almost always prevent a robot from picking up a tetra and capping it- or can it? I don't think there will be the need to stack high, stack fast, definitely, but not stack high.


so I'd take being able to stack fast.

Re: cap high or fast
 

ya, i agree fast is better than high. the quicker you can put up one is better since you can hopefully get it up before someone pushes you to stop you. there are so many goals so you can always stack more.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Fast for me. :)

Re: cap high or fast
 

Fast is defenitly the priority. If you're fast and can cap all the shorter goals with a reasonable number of tetras you'll be able to get 3 pointers for every tetra stacked and still be able to complete half of the rows available. If one robot on your team can outstack the others in terms of height, leave it to stack the center goal at the end the match to deal with the other 4 rows.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I'm going to sort of go out on a limb... and say that the winners are going to be who have the best tetra capping per second speed, assuming that they can't be pushed easily.

I don't see this becoming a game that's revolving much around that center goal either. Robots that get 5 or 6 tetras each round will be great to go, wherever they are.

:: Throws Out Some Bait ::
Scoring fast is the most important key to this game.
:: / Throws Out Some Bait ::

Matt

Re: cap high or fast
 

We can do both, but if I had to choose I would say fast. Because I have a feeling it will be difficult to cap a goal if someone else is messing around with you. So the quicker the better

Re: cap high or fast
 

fast for the regionals ~ high for the championship~
capping the last can be as much as a 43 point swing

Re: cap high or fast
 

Yeah I'm thinking a bot scoring 5-6 average per match is going well into the finals. I think the final matches will consist of a bot on each team scoring in the range of 8 per match. I already started a poll based on this yesterday
It's looking like folks think 2-6 will be the average, I think that's a little high. I'm guessing more in the range of 2-3 per team per match "average". But speed is definitely the key.

Edit: I also think no 1 team will score more than 14 in a match. I also think the best teams will max out at 10 per match. And your highest alliance score will be around 24.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Ignoring the fact that it is only necessary to stack high if you can stack fast, I would say fast.

Two years in FIRST have proven to me that success can always be found in a high-volume, high speed robot, whereas a bot that goes for broke once in a while goes broke more often than not. That is why I am worried for this year--it is much more difficult to do a "high volume" robot this year, and we're really facing a new paradigm as a team.

Our bot, Taurus, is quite different from our successful ball gatherer from last year, Scorpius. Hopefully, it will still be successful.

--Petey

Re: cap high or fast
 

I think scoring fast will be the best bet, but I also think you should have a plan as to what spots you want to put the tetras on. So think swiftly and wisely!!!

Re: cap high or fast
 

Define "high".

Re: cap high or fast
 

im not sure what our robot can do but i would like it to cap fast. i know that our robot can store tetras on the back of it so it would be nice to quickly stack them and then collect more. It would be nice to stack high so we can get more tetras on the goals but there is only 2 minutes in the game so i would prefer stacking quickly.

Re: cap high or fast
 

"Fast is GOOD!!! :D :D :D " so i say fast

Re: cap high or fast
 

I have to say fast is alot better, although we are still without testing in our arm to reach the center goal, we played ruckus and only managed to stack 4 tets, but in that respect we also focused more on making rows and blocking other points. We did well in that respect and I think that capping fast in alot better than capping high. My concern is accuracy, I say the more accurate of the two is the preferred choice. If you can accurately and quickly cap the center, sure go for it, and likewise for the smaller goals. Personally I think it will be an even proportion of robots on the center and smaller goals. It will definately be interesting to see who goes fast or high and if they use human player or auto loaders. Lol, fun times and can't wait to see what is going to happen!

Re: cap high or fast
 

If no one can cap fast than why is there a need to cap high?

Capping faster is better in the beginning of the match, but if you need to own the goal at the end of the match then you need to cap high

Faster is better all around.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Based upon watching our Pre-Ship Scrimmage, I would say that being able to cap fast is more useful then having to cap higher. There will be of coarse when there will be an enormous stack but that will be pretty rare. But you never know.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I think fast.

Also tetra SUPPLYwill be an issue. If you can quickly load the field with tetras for your team that will be very helpful to your partners.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I'm going to go against the grain and say that high will be more important. When you look at the elimination matches, particularly the finals, you'll probably see teams that can all stack and can stack well. If a single tetra can swing 2 or 3 tic-tac-toes (imagine the diagonals "X" or the vertical and horizontal "+"), there will be a battle for the center goal, and everything will hinge on who can score highest.

I think fast will get you to the eliminations, but high will carry you to victory. Keeping in mind that more teams will make the eliminations now, fast is probably not quite as important.

Re: cap high or fast
 

High is good so is fast. In my eye ually those who stack high are not very fast for stability reasons. And those who decide to stack fast usually have fast - very fast drive trains. These can easily disrupt any robot attempting to stack high.

To take score into consideration you have to have both sides of the field in order to get the diagonals and centers. For this to be true the goals need to have the same color ownership. To me the robots that can take care of this are the fast ones. I mean you can battle for the center goal all day long but as long as the sides are conflicting colors, your not getting those rows.

What it really comes down to is are your teams mixed well. Two speedy robots and one high stacker is, to me, the optimum configuration in a match. Two caping goals like mad and the one caping center for the tactical advantage.

Over all fast robots are the way to go. These little guys are the ones getting your rows and desrupting your opponnents.

Eh... I don't have cents to give... How bout some copper powder?

Re: cap high or fast
 

Speed trumps height. That being said, I think many teams have done everything to eke out extra speed, including using very simple grabbers, like tennis balls and hooks. This will be their undoing: A fiendishly rapid armeture is all for naught if it takes you several second to actually cap because the tetra is swinging wildly. I noticed this a lot watching scrimmage webcasts.

Re: cap high or fast
 

If i had to say I would say fast. But more important than fast is reliable. If you can stack 10 tetra's in two minutes good for you. But if one of the bulldog robots comes over and starts knocking you around and your dropping tetras and cant manuever it doesnt matter how fast you can stack. This is an offensive thread(like comp. offense not bad offensive) but defense and stability will be vital to survival. Now, to go with the other side of it if you as a fast capper get interupted and the other team ends up stack high on the center goal and you need one row to win i would hate to be the guy left with "oh well it just wont go that high." high is good fast is better but reliable is best.
P.S. I think keeping tetras stable in the air will be vital to any teams success

Re: cap high or fast
 

Im starting to sound like a broken record....


If there are 2 close goals, one with 4 tetras on it, and another with 2 [assuming you "own" both goals], which one would you go for?

Obviously, id go stack on the lower stack to save time and stretching....the higher you go the longer it takes, the more likely you are to fall over or be assisted in falling over.


There is no reason to stack "high"


Stack quickly, spread the wealth, get a row or two and you should be in pretty good shape all year.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Fast and high are good. but Power will always win out. and a robot that does not break.

There will be a lot of robots on their backs. to answer the question med speed cap high and plow over anybody in your way. If you can cap while pushing others out of your way you will do fine.

I think high is anywhere between 12' - 16'

just think if you have three robots putting on tetras you will be stacking high pretty quick.

The fastest way I think will be off the auto loader. the human will only slow you down. the last few seconds will make or break a match.

Score as fast as you can the first minute then play a smart game the last minute.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I would say fast, considering there is a time limit (obviously), so there may not even be a chance to cap high. Also, if you aren't fast, with three other opposing robots, one of the "fast" ones, are bound to use some defense moves and prevent you from capping high.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I agree with the prevalent theme. Fast = better.
I am just confused as to why you (nuggetsyl) think that it is so unbelievable that a team cannot be able to cap high and fast...to the point that you need video proof to validate. I don't understand. My team can cap fast, we can also cap high. We don't use the entire extension of our arm at all times for lower caps but we can almost just as easily cap high as we we cap low, The only time difference is the time it takes to raise and lower our arm... which can almost be accomplished on the drive over to the goal. Judging by the pics of your bot... I am sure that Corey and Bharat can do the same. Why do you think that these two attributes are on such opposites ends of the game playing spectrum?

Re: cap high or fast
 

Chances of high stacks...

Hypothetical super match:
6 bots capping 6 each. Averages around 4 per goal (9 goals). Lets say each bot puts 1 on the center. Last guy stacks 6 high. Thats not very high (depending on your arm/lift). Our bot has no extension features and can cap that. Also to see a match where all 6 bots can cap 6 ea is going to very very rare. Then not to mention the fact that teams trying to cap the center goal are likely to get the most resistance since it's in the middle of the field and everyones buzzing around. 6 high on the center goal will happen but not often. The other goals wouldn't make sense to have more than 4-6 each max if teams were thinking of rows.

I think it's more likely that you will see more like 2 per goal and possibly up to 4 on the center. And that's in a good match.

Just my opinion

Re: cap high or fast
 

Hey guys, i think that it's better to cap high cause you can get more points :cool:

Re: cap high or fast
 

High is very nice to have. We had the highest arm at Sacramento, and it did come in handy. One time, we literally waited above someone to stack on the high goal.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Its really tough to say.

They kind of need each other. If you can go high, thats good but it means nothing if you cant get the volume of tetras needed to even have to go high. If you're fast, thats good but if you can't get high enough, you have to stop after only a few tetras.

If I could only choose one, fast seems better to me. At least once you hit max height you can defend or something.

Both would be the real way to go. I dont have video to back it up, but I do have the classic pic of us and 229 stacking. Both of us are fast and high cappers (utilizing the same shuttle and fourbar), as this goal was stacked by 229 and 217 back and fourth

Re: cap high or fast
 

I said this before I went to the BAE Systems regional. After seeing that event and competing in that event I saw robots that could cap high and other robots that could cap fast and a few that could do both. I found that my team can cap either fast or high but not both in one match, for the most part we capped the back row in less than 45 secs each match, but were able to put a 5th tetra on the center goal. It isn't that important to be able to do both just do one well and your robot can be successful.

Re: cap high or fast
 

From what I saw at BAE being able to cap quickly and reliably on many goals was much more important than taking the last 30 sec. of a match trying to put the 6th tetra on the center goal.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I would second this observation. At the Sacramento Regional passive end effectors(tetra grabbers) won out over grippers or powered grabbers. Time to locate top of tetra, pick up and maneuver to goal highly favored aim and drive systems vs. locate, grasp and then capping systems. Team 692 had a nice pneumatic gripper but getting it located in three dimensions across the field was too much time. The team ended up not using the arm and mostly defending in the semi's. Next year.....

Re: cap high or fast
 

i think it is not only important to stack fast, but also consistently each match. strategy is also important, so no matter what the strategy is, doing your job during each match should be first on the list. personally, i think stacking fast is better because more goals can be covered. but the high goal can also be the difference between winning and losing because the center goal can be used to connect a lot of rows.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I'd rather cap fast. You might need to get a tetra down fast to win the match late and high stacks can fall off the goal.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I'm gonna have to go with fast. if you can cap high, but its slow, its going to matter because another robot is just going to come and push you out of the way. Also, I dont have a video, but check out the pic of 217 and 229 at FLR and you can decide for yourself if they we capping high and fast.

Re: cap high or fast
 

After watching the matches unfold at FLR, and watching the finals from VCU i would say that capping fast or capping high have nothing to do with it. yes it is good to be able to go high, and yes it is good to be able to do it fast, but the most important thing is accuracy. if you can cap really fast, but they aren't all stacked right, then you don't get the points. i think the average amount of tetra's on a goal at FLR was aout 5 or 6, that was in a good match, normally it was only 2 or 3. SO as long as you can cap, as far as i've seen, your going to do a decent job.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Going along with what Tim Delles said, I also think its important to have an arm that doesnt require insane amounts of precision to pick up and cap a tetra. Many arms Ive seen require a lot of circumstances to be optimal, and require too much precision to even get the tetra. Our arm (along with 229s) is just a 1" wide stick, which is incredibly easy to put into the opening of a tetra. This makes us both fast accurate cappers.

Re: cap high or fast
 

The faster you stack, the higher you must go.....so of course you would want to stack fast FIRST, but stacking high would help you SECOND

Re: cap high or fast
 

I am going with FAST capping. The more you can get out and stack for a chance at tic-tac-toe the better th e scores will be. Also a low end gear to be able to push around other robots. Or hold your own if you get pushed.

We stack pretty fast:
Video Here 1501-capping

Re: cap high or fast
 

chako brings up a good point... since its obviously more points to play tic-tac-toe than to just stack on the same goals over and over, then capping fast is easily more important, until the center goal gets like 4 tetra's on it and you need to put one over it.

Re: cap high or fast
 

What was the highest stack you have seen on the middle goal during competition?

Re: cap high or fast
 

six or so. Im sure there has been higher.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Just an observation - capping smart beats both fast and high

Re: cap high or fast
 

I completely agree capping strategically can not only nullify the fast capping of your opponents( A Row is 10 points 3 tetras is only 9) but give better position for getting back to the end zone.

Which brings me to my next point, it seems that 10 point bonus is a lot more than people realize and will often decide the match.

Re: cap high or fast
 

Man the great people from that Chief Delphi team. Go 47 lol! Capping smarter is better then fast and high. That is so true it is why I think 233 and 179 won UCF. Great use of there allience capping abilities I mean they used swampthing speed to cap the goals that the needed to make the rows not so another robot couldn't cap above there tetra. ;) Great observation and totally tru statement though.

Re: cap high or fast
 

The highest I've seen came in practice on Thursday at Detriot.

47 (blue) capped the center, the we (red) capped back, then 47 capped back again, then 469 (blue) added another three, after which, we tossed one more on to be the 7th and winning tetra, also winning us two rows. Now I know it was just practice, but I think it makes a pretty good point...

Pat

Re: cap high or fast
 

Definitely fast. At the Pittsburg regional we had an opposing robot cap our home goal and get back to their side of the field right at the end of the match, steeling our row and I think the win. :ahh: (But I can't remember the exact outcome of that match.) However, MOEbius has some speed issues but we were number 1 seed, so while speed is good, it’s not everything. :cool:

Re: cap high or fast
 

I think in order to win you need to have both on an alliance, wether it's the same team that caps high and fast or one team to cap fast the other high.

I can only go off what the scores were at UTC it seemed like most good teams capped 4-6 tetra's per match, I'm sure their are teams that can cap more out there, but MAX was capping 4-5 tetra's a match and could go 9 high on the center goal. We could lift a tetra from the ground to 14ft in 3 seconds.

It all depends on how your alliance plays the game, if you have fast robots that cap 2 tetra's at a time and you dominate the small goals on your side and maybe one of the center goal fast is good. If the other alliance decides to play defense it seemed in UTC those smaller robots that have a flipping arm or placed 4-5 tetras on their robot could get tetra's blocked or stolen away easily.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I say both, and if you want a video to prove it they're up on our site, but all i really have to tell you it that we won 10 out of 11 games, including one against 3 capping robots, and we we're the only capping robot on our side. And not to mention we won the whole kit and kaboodle (i think thats how you spell it) :D

Re: cap high or fast
 

Don't forget that 1 cap can be a LOT more than 10 points!

I definately agree with you for the qualifying rounds but it seems that play level steps up in the Elims to the point where they are more efficient uses of the last 10 seconds of the game.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I'd say both, I know that I don't have any videos to prove it, but I do have two big blue banners that say 2005 Regional Winners. Our alliance structure has been the same for both victories so far:

Sacramento:

Us: Both
766: Both
1072: Fast

Detriot:

Us: Both
217: Both
301: Fast

Re: cap high or fast
 

To go along with what pat said. fast is good and high is good too....301 one of our alliance partners capped 5-6 tetras ina match. this was only on one goal the back corner by the human load station. wehen u look att this it doesnt seem smart but look at the score thats anywhere from 15-18 points a match. while the other two robots (245,217) made the rows to win the matches.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I would prefer a fast cap. Fast is better, but only if you time it right with how the rest of the field is setup.

Re: cap high or fast
 

I think that the ability to cap is very important and that a fast robot is useful for blocking and defending but the bottom line is that capping puts points on the board, just blocking does not. :)

Re: cap high or fast
 

Stacking fast is what's going to win the qualification matches. However, in the elimination matches with 6 fast stacking robots, pretty soon there aren't going to be many goals worth capping with a low number of tetras on them. Speed is the key, but as the matche progresses having the ability to stack high will become just as important. Placing that last tetra on top of that huge goal, causig that 23pt swing, is what is going to win matches in the finals at atlanta.

Re: cap high or fast
 

i would say u need both, but mainly to win most of ur matches ur gonna wanna cap fast and strategically, most of the robots that have won have been able to cap fast and have had good strategies have done very good, now when u get to eliminations where everybody can cap fast ur gonna wanna be able to go high too, because in most of the eliminations where almost all of the robots are very efficient stackers the goals are going to fill up quickly so u are going to want to be able to get some height