Capping a Team Legal?
 

I searched around and didn't find this on a thread this year, so I am bringing this question to the 2005 game. Most people saw the instance where a team capped another last year with the big Yellow ball when the other team had alot of purple balls in their ball catching mechanism. I was wondering if it was legal to cap another team. Say a team had multiple tetras and was going towards a goal, and instead of waiting for them to put the many tetras on the goal, you just put your color on top of them. This may be a good strategy because it would put your tetra on top, some teams have a max they can carry or cap and putting an extra one on top may go over this limit. I don't know if its worth it all the time, but it might be a worthwhile strategy. If anyone has an answer that would be great. Thanks
Nate

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Is it legal? Yes. Is Graciously Professional? No. Is it smart? Yes

That is kinda one of dlavery's quotes, i tweeked it a bit though.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

I think there was an instance where either we or Rolling Thunder attempted to cap East but I don't think it was sucessful.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

If your robot is good enough to cap a moving robot, would it not be that much better at capping a goal that is obviously stationary. How often would a robot be sitting still while you are capping a tetra in their possession? Probably only when in the loading zone - and we already know you will get a 30 point penalty for touching them while loading.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

What I am talking about is if you were capping a team that usually waits until the end to put the tetras on ( leaving not enough time to cap the goal they just capped?, so wouldn't it be smart to cap them?... Teams that I have seen with over 3 tetras have been considerably slow with that many tetras, slow enough to cap them.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

what about capping a robot's arm at a joint, and keeping them from moving their arm??

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

I would not say that capping a team per se is graciously unprofessional; its just another example of a really unique (whether or not it proves to be usable) strategy. The same could be said if someone spent the whole match locking you in one corner.

I wasn't sure if thats what was meant, but hey, just to throw it out there.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

That would be very unGP. It might seem smart but think about it, that might cause damage to their robot; the robot they built for the past 6 weeks. Capping a robot is fine and will be a crowd pleaser, but intentionally capping an arm joint, or jamming a tetra into a robot will be very very wrong. :)

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

From this thread:
There's a video around here somewhere of team 93 getting their giant ball dump capped. It wasn't illegal, and I didn't hear anybody say it wasn't graciously professional. Defense is part of the game.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Thanks for telling the Team Number I was lost trying to remember that #. I don't think there is a rule this year about it either, if there is one please refer me to it.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

I think it would be a great move in the right conditions. However, be cautious - bouncy yellow balls are much less damaging than pointy, 8.5lb tetras. If something on the receiving robot breaks, both teams will pay the price in some way.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

AFAIK, there is no rule against it.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

I think capping a stack of tetras would be not fall under unGP unless you did knowing that it would break their lifter. If you have a reasonable expectation that doing this will break them, then it's very unGP. I would be surprised if this strategy happened very often though.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Legal yes and what does GP have to do with it? This is a competition and there is no rule against it so it is legal. Therefore it has nothing to do with GP. I would also have to question whether capping a team while in the loading zone is or is not legal. If you drop a tetra and are not touching the tetra or other robot then you have also not broken any rules. The rule states that if you are touching a tetra and it comes in contact then it is a penalty as the tetra is an extension of your robot.

I could be wrong and if so please post the correct ruling.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

We were capped last year and as a driver/competitor I was mad, but I did not think that it was ungracious of them. I had realized that it was just a good strategy and I just dealt with it. This year if that happens, which i am sure it will, and it causes damage that would probably just be considered normal game play. If someone uses their arm to block someone from placing tetras would that be considered normal game play or would this be ruff housing and would then be penalized?(that is a question from me, gimme some opinions or something that i missed.)


GO 1403!!!

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

I've got another question. If team A caps team B's robot, can team B's human player remove the tetra if the robot went to the human loading zone?

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

I would have to say no, I don't think Humans can decap other team alliance tetras from their robot. And it would take alot of time.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

No, as long as you don't entangle with the robot, or decap the tetra

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Just be prepared to face not only the teams wraith but also the reprecussions from the refs if you damage said robot

personaly i think i driver/coach should be able to pecieve all the possible results for their actions and IMO these are just a few of the results that could come of this strategy a) imoblizing the robots arm for the remainder of the match b) the "capped robot" could destroy the tetra and then the capping team could be slaped with a penalty for intentional damaging the field c) the capped robot's arm is destroyed and guess what you have 3 matches partnered with this robot comming up (not completly impossible) d)capped robots arm is damaged and you get slapped with a penalty for intentionally damaging an opposing alliances robot


just a few things to think about, i am not saying the strategy is an illeagal one just that the bad outwiegh the good

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

The bad points of this strategy don't exactly outweigh the good points, as long as you were careful about how you went about it. Maybe this year, you might pay attention to how many tetras a robot could hold.

Say a robot stacked multiple tetras at once. If each time they stacked three tetras before placing them, then why not when they have two, put one of yours on top of their stack. This way you know you won't hurt their robot, but you still get your desired outcome. Now this doesn't mean that they can't stack a fourth and don't because they are prepared for just such an event.

Overall it is a completely viable tactic which doesn't really seem ungracious.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

If I may, the above might not necessarily be true as well. In Pittsburgh 2004, I witnessed first hand the kind of damage, but the kind of spirit that a FIRST competition can provide. Delphi Elite (48) was battling Simbotics (1114) for the top portion underneath the bar, and through it all, 48 somehow managed to drive on top of 1114 and completely bend their telescoping arm. They had to carry Simon off the field with his arm extended. I remember thinking, wow, if I was 1114, I'd be incredibly upset right now, and complain about 48's tactics. Yet I remember it clearly, walking towards my pits after a match, seeing a throng of simbot AND delphi elite personnel in the simbotics pit working feverishly on their robot.

While you may hear the occasional grumble immediately after a match about defensive strategies, given time, and the right mix of FIRST principles, the results usually turn out spectacularly. (48, 1114 and 1006 were finalists at their next event, the Super Canadian Regional)

GP is important, but it shouldn't necessarily stand in the way of pushing your robot to the limit, and trying the hardest you can to win a match.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Someone pulled a tetra off of us just as we were about to cap.

I see no real problem with this, nor do I consider it in violation of "gracious professionalism". It's a design flaw in East's robot. Nothing was damaged. It was funny! I am all in favor of team's finding creative ways of playing the game- it's what keeps FIRST interesting.

Greg

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Jeff is correct. The incident he describes really describes gracious professionalism in a nutshell. 48 battled us tooth and nail in that match. Yes, they did a lot of damage to our arm, in fact our arm was never the same again. Was I upset at them? Not in the slightest. They played aggressively on the field, they played to win. I'm never going to fault a team for that. They chose the best strategy to stop us. I applaud them for that. But off the field, the competition ended, and the co-operation began. They came over to us, and graciously helped us fix all the damage.

That's what gracious professionalism is all about. Compete as hard as you can on the field, co-operate as hard as you can off the field.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Yeah those design flaws kill you in the end.
You especially hate finding out about them in competition.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

update 4 - cannot use field objects to hinder an opponent in a load zone (ie push a tetra that is on the floor into them) i think this would apply. And if this happens, I hope i'm not there when it does. JUST PLAY THE GAME PEOPLE THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYED (insert napolean dynamite JEEZ noise here)

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Remember that one of the points of first is to get us to "think outside the box," as cliche as that sounds. We're supposed to look at the game, and think "What are all the ridiculous, crazy, weird ways we can get an advantage in this competition," and then do them. trying to figure out all the ways we can use field objects legally in play is definately a legitimate discussion.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

What defines "THE WAY THE GAME WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYED"?

I'd say the RULES do. The opinions of FIRST or the game designers or anyone else mean NOTHING until those opinions have been incorporated into the official rules of the game. If they feel so strongly about a certain strategy's impact on the game, they can amend the rules to address it. Until then, let's not quash the creativity of teams seeking to find unique ways to play the game WITHIN THE RULES. By all means, please use these forums to educate people about obviously illegal strategies and also the risks involved with employing unique but legal strategies. But please don't use them to try and influence team's to play the game the way YOU THINK it should be played. There will be offense. There will be defense. Teams should be free to do whatever they feel gives them the best shot at success, and as long as they are operating within the rules and the boundaries of their conscience, that's fine.

If anything "bad" or "unusual" ever happens because a team chooses to employ a strategy that's legal according to the written word of the game, or a team does cross the line, that's what we have refs for - to make non-biased judgement calls in unique situations where their expertise is needed. Otherwise, let the teams play.

Instead of slapping a blanket statement of prohibition on each and every "non-standard" way of doing things, at least in the eyes of the status quo, let's react fairly and calmly each time a unique situation comes up during a match. That way, we may be more entertained and impressed by the truly one of a kind strategies our teams come up with. And let's also trust that if a team's legal strategy unintentionally causes damage to another or upsets another team, that the referees and the parties involved will employ GP to the fullest extent in trying to remedy the situation, as we've seen demonstrated so many times in the past.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Did anyone think to ask in the Q&A? :confused:

I don't see why it wouldn't be illegal (unless they are in a loading zone). Unless the refs say that you're "pushing up high", but besides that I don't think there are any rules that could even apply at all.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Capping on a stationary goal is hard enough, and I'm sorry if I made a comotion. I think the that planning a match for the sole purpose of disabling or taking advantage of a teams stacking ability will lead to trouble. Arms get high in the air, pushing happens, and all of a sudden you've got one or two robots on thier sides which could result in DQ's. In a finals match I think it would be worth the risk, but not during a qualifying round. Ranking points matter and it's not about shutting out your oppenent. I know that this strategy was not aimed at qualifying or finals but I am just commenting on the strategy. By all means, I can't take away the power of these forums, or the power for alliances to use risky strategies.

I think that avoiding this strategy would be a good deterent for any arguments after qualifying matches. If seen them happen and it's no fun. Thats what I meant by my previous "Play the game" comment. It all depends on your partners and your oponents.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

...I'm going to have to agree with Raul on this one... If you are good enough to cap a moving robot with a tetra...then wow. I think that it would be a good strategy but not a practical strategy, I highly doubt it would be possible from a drivers stand point.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Tetras already on your robot are considered part of your robot, therefore a human player cannot touch the tetras with his hands because a human player cannot touch the robot... BUT a human player can use the tetra he left his station with to manipulate his robot and tetras that may be on the robot, so a skilled human player may be able to get the other teams tetra off by using the tetra he's holding, if he knows what he is doing.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

GP is extremely simple in regards to the actual game: Don't intentionally damage another robot. Hindering another robots function is fine, unless there is a chance that it will cause damage, where damage is defined as anything that would require repair post-match to restore functionality. If some team has a pole-like lift mechanism that I know won't retract fully if a tetra slides down it, I would have no issue capping them to prevent them from grabbing tetras off the ground. Would it be worth the trouble? Probably not.

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

Has any team thought of a way to remove the tetra off your robot in case it does get capped(other than the skilled human player)? Some kind of mechanism near the most vulnerable spot to pull/push the tetra off your robot?

Re: Capping a Team Legal?
 

No one can cap our tetras if they are on the arm(yay for claws). If they cap them on our tetra holder we can just grab the tetra and fling it off. :D

Is capping other robots arms legal?
 

If a enimy robot has a arm with an actuating joint and i put a tatra on it so it can no longer function, assuming it does not break, is that legal?

Re: Is capping other robots arms legal?
 

Re: Is capping other robots arms legal?
 

I saw that and that is why i am asking. The question was not answered.


*Edit* - I have merged the threads as they are the same topic.
Steve W