Want your alliance to defend?
 

Are you planning to ask your alliances not to defend?

Considering the penalty risks inherent in defending. Combined with the thought of not knowing your alliances abilities. Are you thinking you can trust them as a standard strategy to go into opponent territory and not draw fouls? It seems very risky (as a routine plan) to want unknown alliances to play the other side of the field at risk of making contact with teams in the loading zone, or ramming high speed, or pushing high on another bot etc. Even with a great drive base and excellent control, I'm not so sure how easy it is to keep from drawing fouls.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Since every robot is different, kinda, every teams strengths and weaknesses will be different. That means that something like this would have to mostly be determined during scouting and the alliance drivers meeting before the match.
I think having a bot not do much defence is much safer though.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

If we get paired with teams who can't cap or can't cap well we'll most likely ask them to play defense at mid-court. If they can defend the cap well enough that leaves you with two rows to cap and makes it so the opposing team can get only 1 row.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Even given the risks of penalties I think that we will want 1 of the 3 robots on the far side of the field in most matches.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

With a six motor drive and two speeds we might end up being the defender of our alliance. It should be fun though because we play defense in an offensive way. :D

But as said earlier, it really depends on your partners. The alliance as a whole needs to take a few minutes and assess who is capable of what, and then decide on who is doing what.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

The problem though is that nearly everyones got these looooong arms. So when they go to get a tetra from even the autoloader they'll be sticking out up to 7' from the side of the field and be "recieving a tetra" sometimes it will be almost impossible not to hit them.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Our strategy really depends who we are with and against ifno one or only one team on the other alliance can stack then we wont be playing much defence however if we are the only team who can stack and are against strong teams that can also stack then defense will be key

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

222 plays offence. Our alliances will do as their bot suits it in accordance with the opposition, basically take it match by match. IMHO the ideal ratio on an alliance is 2 offensive and 1 defensive. I have heard 1:2... but this game is too offensive not to have have 2 robots scoring (if not three:) ). And remember guys, sometimes the best defence is a good offence. 1 cap adds three points... can add ten for your alliance... and can take ten from the opponent. A 23 point swing in my favor doesn't sound bad to me. ;) . Opposed to a three to twelve point cap block (depending on how many tetras a team is trying to cap) , in which case neither team scores.

This year is all strategy.. its ridiculous..and I LOVE IT!

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

I Agreed with the scouting-
Many of the strategies I been hearing amongst teams I’ve chatted with started to sound like a basketball game.
Stuff like:
One-on-one
Protecting and controlling the zone
Defending the goals
Goal tending
Blocking the shot (or cap)
Attacking their zone

I think the HARDEST task is having your Alliance to agree on a uniform strategy before the match. Some teams will dominate the game plan because they are more prepared, more capable, or just pushier.

I’ve suggested to my teams to double the scouts this year (4-5) and to hold a scouter/ strategy meeting immediately after the Thursday practice matches, analysis the data and create thee Playbook.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

I think that their are going to be a lot of accidents this year. What do you think the refs will call this year? Will it be like you start pushing someone and you will get a penalty or will it be like if you get really aggressive you will get a penalty? This year I am going to be very cautious when driving carefull not to cause damage or recieve it.


GO 1403!!!

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Careful. If you have been paying attention to the "load bearing surface" thread and others like it it seams that even the long arm bots may not be able to be sticking out as far as they would like. I think that at least some part of their drive base needs to be over the loading zone triangle.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

There are really a huge amount of factors, like drive train, arm ability, opponents, and much else that factor in, but we feel that offense is more effective if all robots have the capability. We might end up goal-tending and doing a bit of blocking during matches, but were gonna try to have our robot do as much capping as possible. Keep in mind, capping and stealing rows may turn out to be the best defense of them all.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

I would prefer our alliance lean toward offense since the game requires offense to win. I think our robot will be more defensive because our arm is not the best but it can "accidentally" hook onto oppose robots and tip them over. Hopefully our driver will do this but he is a better sport then me so he might not.

I would have also liked our robot to have an arm that would pull other robots over. I know that is not good sportsmanship, but if all the opposing robots are on their backs, how do they score?

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

I' d prefer our alliance does what they do best and most reliably. And that the drive teams talk to each other and THINK during the game.

Often the simplest answer is the best but you have to have the sense to see it.

WC

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

If you did that razor you would be the one not scoring.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Assume a meditative posture. Breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth. Open all your senses.

Ready?

Repeat after me:

This is not Battlebots. I will not attempt to destroy the works of others.
This is not Battlebots. I will not attempt to destroy the works of others.
This is not Battlebots. I will not attempt to destroy the works of others.

There. Don't you feel better?

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

gotta love our team name. ACCIdent. hopefully none of that stuff happens to us though. our robot is primarily defensive. its all about the strategy :)

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

It's easy to say that if your alliance partners are less able then you that you want them to defend.

But what if by defending they rack up 50 points in penalties, or the alliance gets disqualified?

Remember this year penalties are easier to get and are worth more points then in years past. Also, high speed ramming, which was a common maneuver in before is now a DQ.

Is it really worth it? That's what this thread is about.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

I would have to say yes to defense. It's my policy that a good defense can always triumph over a good offense (provided that the defense is legal and graciously professional, of course). Joe, you were probably there, so you know that defense was a huge factor on why we won in the finals at Chatsworth. In this game you can be defensive without necessarily contacting.

In short, if we do the picking, I will attempt to get our team to pick at least one robot that is renowned for its defense.

-Daniel

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Thanks Joe,

I'm starting to think I'm being too apprehensive about the penalty points. It seems like most folks aren't all that concerned. But 1 accidental penalty will loose you the match. I don't see why everyone isn't being more uptight about it. But you never know, we might find after this weekend is over that very few penalties were dished out. But from the scrimmage feedback we got, penalties were awry. So tip toeing around the field could potentially win it for you.

There will be (almost in every match) bots in the LZ's closest to the center and somewhat blocking the side crossings while "recieving tetras". They WILL get hit on accident. The last minute caps where we're scrambling to overcap and get a row will mean bots flying full speed to get there and another bot blocking thier path WILL get high speed rammed. It's going to happen over and over - and I see it as built into the game. I don't see a way around it. You're going to see somone capping and you're going to take a swipe at the tetra, and over they WILL go - it' gonna happen. When it does and you don't consider the penalty in your head - but at the end of the match you find out, you or your ally drew 1 or 2 and what you thought was a 45 point win for you turned out to be a 0 point negated score - will scare you, anger you and the next match you'll be sooooo careful and everyone will be frightened of the possibilities. This is all only IF first decides to stick to their guns and call them as they have outlined.
Call me over cautious but I don't see a way around it.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Id have to say that our team needs a defender bot. Most people who have seen 230 they know we can stack. We stacked 4 sets of 3 tetras (12 for the mathmatically challenged) within the time alotted. Unfortunately for us there are 3 opposing robots on the field as well. (duh) we try to get as much help as we can by asking one of our partners to cover us. Usually the opposing alliance sends one sometimes two robots to harass us so we can't score. (Great job in doing that 1071)

-Crash

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

The "best" strategy is one that takes into account your alliance's abilities and those of your opponents. If the other alliance has a really good stacking robot, the only way to win may be to keep them from stacking too much. And you have to be aware of what your robot can and can't do. If you are prone to tipping you have to play less aggressively.

In Pittsburgh, MOE (365) had a great stacking bot. Their drive train and driver were too good for them to get pushed around much, but it was possible with a good defensive robot to keep between them and the goals and keep them from scoring too much. The flip side here is that it took one robot doing nothing but defense to keep them from scoring too much. (They would still stack 3-4 tetras even in a bad match.)

There is a big risk of penalties, and it was not always obvious what would get a penalty and what wouldn't. But if the other team has better stackers than you do, defense may be necessary. More often than not, we saw at the regionals a 2 on offense - 1 on defense split. But sometimes that defense was protecting an alliance partner. If you have a fantastic stacker, it might pay off for two robots to concentrate on keeping that one robot safe. On the other hand if the other team isn't playing defense, there is no point in protecting an ally.

I guess the conclusion we came to is that there is no perfect strategy. You have to scout well before the match, plan with your partners ahead of time and coordinate during the match. More than most years, I think the role of the coach is key this year. You need to pay attention to who controls which goals and who has rows. It also helps to have a plan that keeps you from interfering with your teammates.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Winning alliances are generally built on three bots that can cap. You can win with two capping bots, but it is much, much harder, in part because everyone knows what your third bot is going to do before the match starts.
You also need to be able to defend well to win a regional. Therefore versatility is critical. Part of the reason the 1279 alliance took the Trenton regional was that their bots did both offense and defense well in the elimination rounds. They combined an offensive overall strategy with defensive tactics like pushing a bot away from a goal when the opportunity presented itself.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

My dream alliance, based on capability not teams, would be a solid stacker to handle the back/center row, a semi who could handle stacking but is not afraid to drop a tetra and block using their arm/manipulator , and a ground defense robot.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Pyroslev,

I usually don't get this opinionated, but I'm in a punchy mood; so here goes:

You're "dream alliance" would get smoked by three good stackers. At the Championship, there will be many alliances in the elimination rounds with three good/great stackers and I will say it right now: An alliance with three good stackers will win the Championship this year.

C'mon all you defender robots, try and stop a good stacker ... if you can't shut them down completely (I mean 0 points), then you have already failed. I'm not talking about qualifying rounds. Those matches entirely depend on the random mix, but elimination round alliances will need three good stackers to win the Championship.

-Paul

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

Paul,

I of all people would agree with you, because we were on a 3 capping alliance (that won UCF). But we did find that switching into defense mode about 30 seconds before the match was up became critical.
We had one match (during seeding) against 3 of the best cappers at UCF (pink, 1402 and heatwave). We were allied with 1694 a box bot with no arm (and 15" tall) and the other team was 1649, a great rookie capper. We won this match! 1694 played great defense and held down 312 and pink. While 1649 capped away in our backfield. We put up a few and switched to defense and pulled out a close win. This strategy is valid and can win against 3 great cappers.

After seeing this play out a few times, I don't think an all offensive team can beat an effective mixture.

Here's a video

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

At Sacramento, the two alliances that went to finals had three cappers apiece.
As for over the loading zone, READ the updates and find that if the robot is touching the triangle with something inside the starting area, the robot is in the zone. If not, they are out and just got penalized for it.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

That statement depends on the matchup. Our robot was built for offense and only offense. We also discovered at UTC we could steal tetra's off certain types of robots and successfully make a match 2 vs 2 for scoreing. Our team can defend almost anybody well, but some teams obviously aren't worth our time because we may not be as successful or we could out score easily on offense, thats a judgment call our drive team and alliance would make.

I think offense is going to be key, and our team is going to play more offense than defense, but if we get matched against certain types of robots or teams we could prevent more points than we could score in some cases, we will shock some people with how effective our arm is. Just takes a lot of common sense when your decideing what to do and what your alliances teams can do as well.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

It is not true that three offencive robots will necessarily be the ones to win, our robot can usually keep at least two of our opponent's from scoreing the entire match when we play defece, some times we can keep all three from scoreing more than three all togeather. And the penaties are not that big of a problem if your driver and stratagist know what they're doing. we played defence most of the time and never got a penaty for it.

Re: Want your alliance to defend?
 

If you cant build a robot to complete the task, dont create one to hurt someone else's :yikes: