Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I agree that this is not very graciously professional at all, but don't forget that the rules state that you must be in the loading zone with the intent to receive a tetra to be eligible for the 30 point penalty.

<G15> A ROBOT may not interfere with an opposing ROBOT while any part of the opposing ROBOT is
touching its LOADING ZONE and the ROBOT is in the process of retrieving/receiving a TETRA.

I didn't see it myself but from what you described, just backing into the zone may not be enough, especially if you guys were holding a tetra while trying to score on a goal. It all depends on the opinion of the ref, which incidentally, you have to respect either way. I do see how this could be argued either way, but it's sort of done now.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

We understand that the refs are volunteers, but one of the refs at VCU did not even know about the 10 second rule. After our match with 1545 (read my post above) they were required to count with their hands above their heads.

In the match with 539, we were obviously in, whether they pushed us in or whether I back in should not be in question, as we were were in the safety of the loading zone either way. After 539 tipped us and they were able to untangle theirselves from us and drive away - we were still in the loading zone.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

We know its done now - but we still know that we are right. The way our lift is deisgned, we could have actually picked up another tetra. From this picture already on Sparky's website you can see that we have 3 forks and I also explained to Lisa that we could pick up another tetra if we needed to. http://www.sparky384.com/media/galle...SCF0017?full=1

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Wow John ... how can you even mention "Gracious Professionalism" in a post like that??

For all of you whining about gracious professionalism during a match - when you are in a match you are competing to win within the rules of the game. Rules which are interpreted and enforced by HUMAN, VOLUNTEER, referees ... WHOSE DECISIONS ARE FINAL. Gracious professionalism is NOT about what happens during a match, but about all of the stuff that happens when you are not competing in a match. To come on here and whine about bad/missed calls, rough play, and boycotting another team is EXTREMELY UN-"GP", ESPECIALLY when you are mis-quoting (or ad-libbing) the rules.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

OK, I object. Strongly, loudly, forcefully, and completely. This post, and the behaviors and responses promoted by this post, are totally irresponsible and unacceptable. You are completely out of line with these comments.

I don't know why you are participating in the FIRST program, or what you perceive you are getting out of it. I am not going to tell you what you should or should not believe about the goals of FIRST, how it should impact your life. I am not going to play "values police" and tell you that all your views are wrong because they are not consistent with the stated values of FIRST, or how those values should be reflected in the implementation and play of the game. You are going to have to figure out those things for yourself.

But while you are doing that you need to think about the example that you, as a teacher, are setting for the students on your team. Are spite, villification, revenge, and retribution really the traits you want to display to your team? Are these the characteristics by which you want your entire team to be known to the FIRST community?

Please remember what was said at the close of the VCU regional. Sometimes things go the way you want, but other times they may not. What happens during the build season and at the competition may seem important at that moment. However, what is much, much more important is what you do with that experience after the competition is over. You can take the experience and use it as a point from which to grow and improve yourself and your team. Or you can become petulant and sulky, fill your future with thoughts of revenge and blow any thoughts of inspiration and leadership right out the window.

As you are thinking this through, I hope you will recognize just how unacceptable your comments are. And at every upcoming competition event that you attend, I hope you will go out of your way to find every volunteer referee, judge, field attendant, score keeper, and stage hand, and apologize.

-dave lavery

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Whoa. It seems to me as if there's alot of flaming on referees, volunteers, and individual teams going on here (and in other threads as well). I'm not in a position to preach or anything, as I'm barely old enough to be a mentor myself, but I have a hard time believing that calls/descisions were made with malicious intent (Do you really think they said "Lets make call Y just so we can see person Z fly into a fit of rage?"). People make mistakes. The drivers, the coaches, the referees. They're all human. What's done is done. My team has been on (what I perceived anyway) as the raw end of the deal, so I know it's no fun, but maybe we can leave team numbers out of the rants. Or just not rant so much at all.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Good response Dave. I totally agree.
There were many points in the competition where teams actions were interpreted as non-GP. What matters is what you do about it. Dragging it out doesn't solve the problem any more. Instead, re-asses your current condition, and make the best of it you can!
Sparky (384) did a great job of discovering our 1 little hidden weakness that we hoped no-one would catch:
http://www.raptar.net/img_8109.jpg
This basically put us in the same position as if we'd been tipped. We couldn't use our arm. But was this non-GP? No. They simply discovered an aspect of our design that allowed them to legally disable our subsystem. What did we do about it? We didn't even stop to growl about it, we made the best we could and continued playing, now playing Defense with Sparky (hope we didn't do any damage, I know we walked away with one of our wheel treads lopped off and our camera servo in pieces. Tis' OK though, gave us something to do for the next match!) and continued play.
Congrats 384 for your keen observation. I commemorate your ability to identify this aspect of our design, and give us a new challenge.
Thank you.
GP is also not something that resides only within the playing field. I know before one of our matches, I overheard a mentor of one of the opposing alliances was having trouble finding bungees to give to the students in the queuing line to strap onto the bot for the next match. I gave them all our bungees that we had used to hold our robot down in our crate, just so they could compete, even against us. We ended up tieing our bot down with tie wraps in our crate because of this :) They slammed us quite a bit that match, but you know what? I was glad that we were able to be slammed because we had helped them get what they needed to run. Bring on the Damage, If thats what it means!
I also will say, that I have been concerned about several teams/mentors etc. I saw quite a few mentors who were getting quite hot-headed over the competition. I also saw some mentors treating students very negatively. Is this how you would treat this student if they were your own child?
I know that tension can get high in the heat of competition, and the mentors really do care about there team, but to be blunt, this competition is not for you, its for the students. Most mentors are already engineers. The purpose of FIRST is to inspire todays youth in engineering, to build a greater future for the world of engineering.
I am not saying mentors are not important.
Mentors are there to support, and assist. Not to play the role of a student (There's a reason driving coaches cannot touch the controls. They are there to coach.)
I also think that mentors need to keep a closer watch on their hands, and where they are. They shouldn't be on the robot, unless heavy lifting / general help is being executed. They shouldn't be on the computer, both pre-regional and at the events, whether its programming, or (especially) designing.
While there was much at VCU that seemed negative, I have to say that for every negative person/thing, I saw another 100+ positive persons/things. Many mentors are doing a wonderful job with their teams. This really cannot be done without their support.
Overall, keep in mind that its not about who wins, its about the experience that you gained through the FIRST experience. It will change your life if you let it, and I guarantee you, it's for the better. ;)

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Dave, I agree with the sentiment, but I can't bring myself to feel it with the same forcefulness; this individual, pyroslev, is no teacher, but a student with a bit of a maturity deficit. I make this accusation on the basis of the notation in his profile that reads "Birthday: May 2, 1987", and on the low overall quality of the reasoning exhibited in that post. His assertion that the referees were lacking in "professional quality" because a student could determine the position of the robot is demonstrative of a lack of understanding of the actual rules and customs of FIRST, and of a sense of righteous indignation fuelled by his misconceptions.

Pyroslev, I can recall a couple of occasions where I've questioned the efficacy of the referees--never so discourteously, but I've occasionally wondered what possesses them to make such bad calls, at some crucial moments. Of course, having refereed various things myself, I've seen sufficient empirical evidence in my own mistakes to verify that the position of a referee is a difficult one, and that perfection is unrealizable. As competitors, we all learn this sooner or later, and plan for it--I reiterate, we are wrong to expect perfection, and we are ineffective competitors if we let our perceptions of success and failure ride upon this expectation.

Meanwhile, I acknowledge that you are right to point out the errors that you perceive, and do whatever you can to see them remedied--but for now, an education in gracious professionalism is the order of the day for you, if you truly wish to get anything out of participation in FIRST.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

A similar loading zone situation occurred at Sacramento. Team 610 had backed into a loading zone during a pushing contest with another team. I was the referee in front of said loading zone, and it was obvious to me that they did not enter the zone with the intent of getting a tetra. The robot was sitting there, the HP had not left the mat, AND they had not once loaded a tetra onto their bot all weekend.

One ref believed it to be a violation of the rules, but it was fairly clear that 610 had never intended to load a tetra and was using it as a safe zone, or to draw penalties. Now I know it wasn't as clearcut that your team wasn't loading, but you even said you were just sitting there, which means the other team did not violate the rules.

I'm not even going to go into where you question the integrity of the referees and the teams you specifically mentioned, because I could be writing all night. I hope you understand how completely wrong you are.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

but then again if this is the worst thing that has happened to you or your team this year- you should consider yourselve fortunate

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I agree, after working 6 weeks on the hardest thing in your life so far, and then getting to compete in a good environment where gracious professionalism is around, that's a blessing.

The team in question did do us over a few times, we know that. But I'm not complaining not because we won awards, but because in the greater scheme of things, a team that ticks us off doesn't matter. We helped and had fun with so many teams, with so many people, that we don't want to spend the time or energy ruining the experience. The team in question will learn and will burn down in it's current form, only to rise from the ashes a better team. We have numerous times, I think they will too.

Congrats to 401, 122, and 435 on their win, and 388 on winning the Engineering Inspiration award.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

A little off topic but...
For those of you who know Dee T., Senior Mentor from VA and all-around-go-to-person for the VCU regional, (she is going to kill me ;) ) had a crate dropped on her foot on Sat.
Get well messages can be sent to her big toe at dtomczak@usfirst.org.
And a thanks and even a mention of one thing done right can go a long way to making someone feel better.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Wow, she did? Ouch. Email is going out now...

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Man, I never thought I would see this kind of stuff on a FIRST discussion board. Boycotting other teams? The un-named people aforementioned should be ashamed of themselves for flaming a tenacious team like 539.

I'll tell you a little bit about this team...

When they came down to get their award, there was only 5 people.

To fix their broken robot in the finals, they cut a chunk out of their supplies tote because they didn't have any raw supplies.

They are a private school team, going to one regional, and have no corporate sponsorship.

When this team was given their chance in the finals, picked 2nd round by alliance 8, their captain came up with a smile on his face like he'd been given a million dollars.

Even when their RC went bad, their head electrician (a student) replaced it in one set of quarter final matches, refusing to be replaced by a back up team.

When this team's arm broke they didn't say "man that other team should be boycotted, they play to rough" no, they came back, we switched our strategy and we played our way to the finals.

FIRST is about working with what'cha got, adapting to the game, constantly changing your strategy.

You guys should copy a page out of Lavery's book.


GREAT JOB 339 and 539!! You were the greatest alliance a FIRST 8th seed spot has ever been blessed with!! :D

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

That was well said, Rufus.

Just so you know, all of us watching the webcast over here in West Lafayette were rooting for you guys. Your first round upset was amazing and your bot was terrific to watch. You guys almost won it all and that is an extraordinary accomplishment. I'm sure you will be making another serious run at Boilermaker. Can't wait to see you guys there! Go 447!

--Carl