VCU NASA Regional
 

Match 1 0-0
Match 2 8-0 539 alliance won
Match 3 I dunno-- some alliance was disqualified bc mentor touched controls
Match 4 7-5 No penalties Red alliance won

Match 6 6-4 red alliance win
Match 7 0-12 blue alliance 30 points of penalty
Match 8 26-3 no penalties
Match 9 54-0 10 point penalty on blue.. but they had 0 anyway * look out for those red teams in match 9*
ok I'm off to class if anyone wants to continue this

* note * if you are at VCU tell your team to just get behind the line and win =)
* the feed is 3 minutes behind *
* If you don't know FIRST, I don't know how you can be enjoying yourself in the stand right now - the play is awful -- penalties + many robots running intereference on robots that havbe unreliable capping mechanisms -- and absolutly no auto (although in the first match some team started to pick the tetra up but only had 2 seconds left)
** feed is synched now**

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

The most recent match on the webcast won 54-0

That match was pretty entertaining!

-SlimBoJones...

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Correction, 64-0.

Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

There was an amazing match on the webcast..

Near the end of a match, one team was pushed into the player station and flipped over. Both of their alliaces got back into the end zone, and the flipped team used their powerful arm to push themselves up enough so that they were in the end zone. They didnt get back upright, but ended the match resting on the side of the chassis and the arm, in a sort of triangular form. Im not sure who the team was, but if you do please post it. Amazing Job..

And oh yes this game is proving to be more exciting than I thought it could ever be.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

64-0? Not many ranking points :(

Is it just me or is the field announcer harassing the teams? He seems to be in a big rush. While I understand the need to keep things on time, that's not the field announcer's job; it's the pit announcers'. Are a lot of field announcers like this year's @ VCU?

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

match 18 22 to 16 10pt penalty on red. red wins
match 19 45 to 4 10 point penalty on blue, red wins
match 20 4 to 9 20 point penalty on red, blue wins

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I've noticed this too and I don't care for it. It's very repetitive and annoying for the audience to hear him constantly nagging people about it. If he wants to harass the teams each and every match to speed things up he could at least turn off the mike and spare the rest of us...

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

hey I like that guy~ he means well =) he's the best announcer

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

is anynody else kind of disappointed with the game?

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

match 18 22 to 16 10pt penalty on red. red wins
match 19 45 to 4 10 point penalty on blue, red wins
match 20 4 to 9 20 point penalty on red, blue wins
Match 21 ~ Red 23 Blue 9 no penalties
Match 22 ~ Red 12 Blue 7 no penalties
Match 23 ~ Red 63 Blue 14 no penalties
Match 24 ~ Red 21 Blue 45 no penalties
Match 25 ~ Red Blue something

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

^ You're cracked if you think he is the best announcer. He is talking more like a stage manager than an announcer. Visit Great Lakes if you want to hear the best MC and Announcer.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

i am a little but some are good matches

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

We are running an hour behind, and losing 1.5-2 minutes a match. We are trying to shave time anywhere we can.

Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I'll back up Wetzel on this one. You generally don't lose time on matches cause teams aren't queued up. You lose time because teams are taking too long getting on and off the field and because of field reset. If they're losing time from teams taking too long on the field, the options are to go 1-2 hours over time, cut out the team introductions, or remind teams to get on and off the field as quickly as they can manage.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Yes, I understand cycle time is always important at these competitions. But from a spectator standpoint (both in the stands, and watching over the webcast), it is irritating. Remember, FIRST strives to make these events spectator-friendly and professional in appearance. The constant complaining that the teams aren't moving fast enough is neither of those, hence my suggestion to do it with the microphone switched off. Bugging the teams to hurry up is fine, it keeps things moving. It's just that subjecting the audience to it doesn't help anything.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I've been watching off and on all morning (PST). So far, defensive strategies aren't working. It's hard to tell from the webcast, of course, but the most aggressive whackers don't seem to be doing well.

Any thoughts from someone who's had a better look (my Webcast keeps flipping between 150Kbps and 20Kbps... and I have to get some work done, too :]).

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

#43: Red 2 - Blue 20
#44: Red 9 - Blue 0 (was 14, 30 penalty points)
#45: Red 21 - Blue 21
#46: Red 18 - Blue 50
#47: Red 10 - Blue 0 (was 9, 10 penalty points)
#48: Red 19 - Blue 10
#49: Red 7 - Blue 22
#50: Red 27 - Blue 0 (was 30, 40 penalty points)
#51: Red 28 - Blue 15
#52: Red 20 - Blue 46
#53: Red 30 - Blue 12
#54: Red 0 (was 9, 10 penalty points) - Blue 21
#55: Red 1 (was 11, 10 penalty points) - Blue 11
#56: Red 0 (was 2, 10 penalty points) - Blue 4
#57: Red 23 - Blue 35

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I've got the entire match results in excel. I'll post them at the end of the day.


Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Just to let you know we viewers are running about 50 seconds behind on the video of the webcast. Can someone restart it?

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

We=audio? Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean...

Wetezl

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I disagree...

"Shibang" has been very effective at stopping other teams from capping.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Awards for Friday:
(Sorry if I massacred some names, and the text in parentheses is the song they played during the awards.. If someone wants to update them, go right ahead)

VCU Awards 2005

Friday 3/04/2005

Imagery Award: Team 510 - Hawaii 510 - IFX & HSTC (?)
Radio Shack Leadership in Controls: Team 1541 - Midlothian HS (I've Got The Power)
Xerox Creativity Award: Team 447 - MadCo Partnership (?)
Delphi Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award: Team 384 - Sparky - Inf/SBCF/? (Start The Commotion)
Kleiner Perkins Kaufield Byers Eunterpeneurialship Award: Team 623 - Raytheon/PEC/LHMC/OHS (I don't want to work, I just want to bang on the drums all day)
Judges Award: Innovation in Tactical Approach: 1033 The Cadets - DuPo/Dibert/Delta/BHS (?)
Website Design Award: Team 623 - Raytheon/PEC/OHS ~ http://ohsrobotics.org/index.html ~ (Flash Site) - (Wang Chung - Wang Chung)
Autodesk Visualization Award: Team 435 - Robodogs - CISCO/NCSU/SE Raleigh (REM - Shiny Happy People)
Woodie Flowers Award: Charles Harris - Team 623 (?)

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I agree... I saw them running in a match. They would give 25 a run for their money.

/off defensive topic
I saw a robot rump like 4 tetras under a goal at once. I am not sawing it was a lot of points, it just looked really cool :p . I also saw Sparky pwning in a match. Good job to the 384 guys. I only was able to see a couple matches from the webcast...otherwise I would say more.

-Henry

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

The announcer has to do what he can to try and help move things along when they are behind. I've even seen refs encourage teams to move quicker to get on and off the field in past years. Who is the announcer at VCU this year anyway?

Usually the first weekend is the time that problems are identified and that makes the following weeks flow easier. Did they plan any additional time between matches to get on and off the field? With two additional teams per match, they should have increased the time by about 50% as well.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I find your comment about an arm very un-gracious professional. Some teams don't have a lot of money, or maybe they do not have a lot of engineering support, or anything to work with... by you saying that they must not be talented enough is very rude in my opinion. FIRST warned that there would be common impact, so if a team was not built for it, that was their decision, and if they didn't have the money, there was the kit base, which is very strong.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Sorry, I guess i worded that a little strongly. I think that they are now enforcing penalties against repeated rammings. I guess it is a working strategy, although you had to be there and be getting rammed to know that it is quite annoying.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

In the matches I saw, the teams that dedicated one 'bot just for defense lost more than they won. I also saw defensive robots that did not push other 'bots, but ran into them at speed. I don't know if they were penalized for this, but they should have been.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

hmm....oddly enough I believe we finished early today at Peachtree....

check the game rules because what this person described above is illegal....whacking another robot with an arm how he described is illegal, and not covered by their "common impact" statement.....

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

They were not whacking another robot with their arm, just getting in the way, pushing teams away from goals, etc.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

ah ok....Stephen P described it differently....that is just part of the game and is completely legal.....quite frankly I have seen for some teams it be very effective....you are right that they did tell people to build their robots strong because there would be a lot of contact....

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

What I was mad about was a couple robots I saw that were just ramming other bots really hard and repeatedly while they were trying to stack. One or two times the rammer bots even succeeded in either shutting off the victim robot, or ramming it into a corner and making it get caught in a goal. It is one thing to get in the way and push, but another to ram with malicious intent. I wasnt talking about whacking with arms, which would be more likely to hurt the arm than the other bot anyway.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I think the line truly rests at GP. For example, yesterday (at the practice matches) our arm wouldn't run the first match (someone *Accidentally pulled the data cable for our pump :( ) so we immediately went into defense mode. There was *a* team that we blocked somewhat roughly from capping the canter goal, and one or twice the side goals. Some other members from our team heard some comments from the other alliance that we weren't playing with GP in mind. I disagree, it was there design that allowed the tetra to fall off instead of hang on, not an un-GP play. FIRST even stated in the manual to expect lots of low-impacts throughout the game.
However later in the competition (I wont say which day) we were in a match where an opposing robot immediately came for us and forced us into the goal, thus eliminating us from the whole match. Now, I can understand bumping us to thwart our capping efforts, but they continued to force us in after we obviously weren't capping. I felt that it was a little non-GP, because it *seemed* like they were trying to intentionally remove us from play.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

i am. i havent been able to watch any matches but just by how ive heard the rules and how the feild is set up i think i like last years game better.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I disagree. Rough defense during competition is allowed and expected, teams should prepare for it in both their robot design and strategy. But you're talking about the team's first practice match at their first regional. Give them a break and let them work out any bugs in their robot. Give them a chance to practice capping a goal before you slam into them. Unless you agreed otherwise with your opponent before the practice match, save the defense for the real matches when the points actually matter.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I think, defense is not unGP. Defense is just the opposite of offence; if we were not allowed to defend, in a way we are being told to play the game a certain way, with a certain strategy which in myopinion is not the goal. Low-impact push and shoves are part of the game, they provide the challenge that makes these matches much more interesting. If there should be no contact between opposing robot than there is no point of going head to head against other teams. However, ramming into teams at full speed or trying to wedge a team to make them topple intentionally will be something that i dont expect from a FIRST team. :cool:

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

If you havn't seen any matches, then on what are you basing your opinion?

Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

well last year there was alot more things happening with the small balls, the 2x large balls, hanging... there was just som many things happening were this year you look at all the robots and many look the same. like were as last year there were so many different deigns because of the many different ways to score.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

By the rankings on the webcast, it seems as if the #1 seed got 9 matches while the rest of the teams got 8 matches. I was expecting at least one or two more matches overall, but it is a big regional.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

The top of the seedings at VCU:

1 - 1279
2 - 1095
3 - 401
4 - 435
5 - 165
6 - 1610
7 - 1541
8 - 345
9 - 616
10 - 540

Time for alliance selections....

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I think there's a bit of a problem with the alliance selection process at VCU: the announcer just stated that a top-8 team must accept an invitiaton, or withdraw. This is not supported by the rules, unless a Q&A response changed this since Revison A was posted.

Each of the Alliance Leads will designate a student to be the Alliance Captain. Each remaining team will choose a student to act as Team Representative. Each Alliance Captain and Team Representative will proceed to the Playing Field at the designated time to represent her or his team. In descending order, each Alliance Captain will invite to join them, a team ranked below them in the standings, which has not already accepted or declined an invitation, to join an Alliance. The invited Team Representative will step forward and either accept or decline the invitation. If the team accepts, it is moved into that Alliance. If the team declines, it is not eligible to be picked again and the Alliance Captain extends another invitation to a different team. If an invitation from a top eight alliance team to another top eight alliance team is accepted, the team currently ranked ninth will move up to become the number eight alliance. The process continues until Alliance Eight makes a successful invitation. The same method is used for each Alliance Captain’s second choice. This process will lead to eight alliances of three teams.

The relevant point: "it is not eligible to be picked again", with nothing about that team itself picking. Also, note the sentence that follows above--that would be redundant if the declining top-8 team had to withdraw. This may turn out badly, because of the apparent misunderstanding.

Of course, we won't actually see the results of this, because a team in this position will probably just accept, rather than face (incorrect) withdrawal.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

<off topic>
Why is alliance selections always a problem?? Grr.. I think while striving to make the game viewer friendly as a spectator, FIRST should strive to make the Alliance selection process as easy to understand as possible too.
</off topic>

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Alliances

Seed...Captain...First Round...Second Round
#1......1279......384.............1545
#2......1095......1541............975
#3......401........435.............122
#4......165........345.............422
#5......1610.......616............510
#6......540........388.............619
#7......837........1086...........1093
#8......339........447.............539

Standby Teams
1469, 1172, 1137, 1623, 587, 1054, 1598, 1417

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Quater Final Matches:
QF1-1 Red 49 Blue 00 (1-0-0)
QF2-1 Red 29 Blue 53 (0-1-0)
QF1-2 Red 31 Blue 31 (1-0-1)
QF2-2 Red 31 Blue 43 (#5 seed moves on, defeats #4 seed)
QF1-3 Red 26 Blue 32 (1-1-1)
QF1-4 Red 03 Blue 49 (#8 seed moves on, defeats #1 seed)
QF3-1 Red 15 Blue 24 (0-1-0)
QF4-1 Red 38 Blue 39 (0-1-0)
QF3-2 Red 24 Blue 00 (1-1-0)
QF4-2 Red 76 Blue 15 (1-1-0)
QF3-3 Red 58 Blue 00 (#2 seed moves on, defeats #7 seed)
QF4-3 Red 51 Blue 29 (#3 seed moves on, defeats #6 seed)

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

SEMIFINAL MATCHES:
SF 1 (match#1): Red 32 Blue 33
SF 2 (match#1): Red 36 Blue 45
SF 1 (match#2): Red ? Blue ? --my internet went down during that match
SF 2 (match#2): Red 30 Blue 8
SF 1 (match#3): Red 0 Blue 26 (Blue alliance advances to FINALS)
SF 2 (match#3): Red 32 Blue 18 (Red alliance advances to FINALS)

FINALS [339,447,539] VS [401,435,122]
Final match#1: Red 33 Blue 24
Final match#2: Red 29 Blue 28 [Red defeats Blue winning entire competetion]

ALLIANCES [401,435,122] WINS VCU/NASA FIRST ROBOTICS REGIONAL

good job to all teams!

Winners!
 

401,435,122 win!

Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

HERE HERE! =)

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I second that motion!!

Great job to everyone!!! And congrads to the winners.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I am on Team 1123 with the robot "Shabang"(note the spelling) we simply played our game how we wanted to we chose to not cap goals we figured every1 else would so we would have at least 1 person on our alliance that would do fine at capping so we could just stop the other team from capping.

also on another note about us "ramming" at least that is what i think was said about us. i drove and i never pulled back far and rammed any1 i was more of a push then a ram. 416(i think thats the #) would ram from half the field but they had no traction so they couldn't really push.

we chose to look at the game in an innovative and trusty way to build a robust robot and push not do the norm take your own way in life. :P

(sorry for all mistakes in this post i don't like to type lots or use punctuation)

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I agree, agressive is good, but two robots come to mind at VCU that I think were overly agressive, out of controll, and just plain non-gracious. But that's the fact of life...

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I'd also like to mention that the play in practically all of the quarter-final matches and on were very high contact...we were simply playing that way from the start (friday morning on).

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I have a question about the #1 seed. As stated above somewhere, they played 9 matches while the rest of the top 8 played 8 matches. I understand that some teams will play more matches - its just the way things work out. However, in the past, extra matches were not counting towards those teams' rankings so that everyone's final ranking was based on the same number of matches. In this particular case, if I remember correctly, the #1 seed was in the last match and won that match, bringing their record to 8-1-0 for a total of 16 ranking points. The #2 and #3 seeds were both 7-0-1 giving them a total of 15 ranking points. If that last match should NOT have have been counted, that would have dropped the #1 seed to #5 (or was it #4...I think it was #5 based on QP's though).

If the scored was counted properly and the 9th match was in fact supposed to count towards their ranking, it doesn't seem right to me that a team with a loss would be seeded higher than two teams that were undefeated.

Kev

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

If this is correct, this is another case of someone not understanding the tournament rules (or at least, missing a large bug in the scoring software). Section 8 clearly states that "[a] Surrogate team will receive zero qualifying Points and will not receive any Ranking Points." (With "Surrogate" meaning a team that plays an extra match, to allow complete alliances in every qualifying match, at events where the number of teams isn't divisible by 6.)

Why can't people just familiarize themselves with section 8?

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

During our last semi final team 539 went after our arm....they used their
flip type arm to come over on it and ride on it....i would'nt
call that blocking....also once during this we were in a loading zone,
but the refs and judges did'nt penalize them. We might have gone on to
the final if it had been changed. 539 went after otherswith this arm
the same way in other matches. Also luckly we had a good strong
arm when they did go after us so we did ok....just could'nt place
the tetra.....keep in mind these bots costs thousands....is this any
way to treat them?

When we could we had one of our alliance partners 510 run interference
for us to keep 539 off of us. There were others during the vcu regional
but 539 sticks to mind as it was our last match. During friday
there was one match which we were'nt in that was more "battle bot"
than competitive play. many bots were knocked over during the
vcu regional.

another team....416 came to vcu over weight. (169 lbs).
they cut off the arm and played defensive during the whole time.
i guess they did'nt have much of a choice.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

In the final final match, 539 came along and whacked us up high, tipping us WWAAYY over. No suprise, they were disabled. Fortunately, we won the round along with the tourney 29-28 because of the help of 122 NASA Knights, and the 435 Robodogs.

Earlier, 416 left HUGE dents in our polycarb side panels, totally misaligned some of our frame, and pulled out our battery cable during a practice round. Ironically, coming out of our pit for a break from repairs, I saw a sign: "HAVE YOU BROUGHT YOUR GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM?"

And to top it all off, we were paired with 416 during the seeding matches, resulting in our tie for the day.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Tristan: We had people who were familiar with rule 8. There were some issues, but the fact of the matter is, we knew about it but it didn't get done. I apologize. The scoring system seemed to not realize this rule, but then the system went down and we didn't have any rankings. We started with a partial list, and got the full list back halfway through alliance selections. With the problem we had, it was determined better to get going then to wait an unknown amount of time to fix it. After we started two hours late on Thursday, we could NOT wait that long to select alliances. In this chaos, the issue fell through the cracks. It is in our notes, and will be corrected in the software before next week.


Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I didn't realize the extent of the scoring system problems--the fact that you couldn't fully correct the bugs on the fly, and the fact that there were other issues to be dealt with makes this oversight much more understandable, if still a little infuriating. Thanks for the clarifications.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

First off - 539 tipped us in Semifinal 1-3 and weren't penalized or disabled, even though we we in the loading zone as mentioned above. Head Ref Lisa said that it looked to her like they pushed us into the loading zone, but they were pushing from the side so they pushed us into the wall. I was driving so I know what happened - I intentionally backed up to get into the loading zone so we would be safe and then 539 tangled with us and went forward and tipped us over with most of our lift being off the field. Somehow, they were able to stand back up and continue without penalty. Afterwards, our alliance talked to both head refs repeatedly and even to Woodie Flowers who agreed it was a bad call but he had no power to change the score.

Head ref Skip was on the opposite side of the field but agreed that and loading zone (your own alliance color of course) was a "safe zone" if you had a tetra or not. I do not see why even Lisa thought they pushed us into the load zone - why she did not call a penalty. If she thought they pushed us into the load zone - thats fine - but she acknowledged that we were in the load zone.


Second - In another match, while attempting to cap the center goal, 1545 began to mess with us so I back up to get away. They took advantage of this and backed us all the way to the tip of a back goal because of a bumper we were using so that we wouldnt drive into a goal when trying to cap. The back-left side of our frame hit the tip of the goal and bent slightly. We were still drivable but 1545 backed up and rammed us full speed before I could move away from the goal and it bent the frame into the wheel and we were stuck. 1545 kept coming back and repeatedly hitting us even though we were not moving. A ref was watching and would not call them on intentional damage which. After watching the video many times, we finally agreed. Note: We were able to repair and we reinforced our frame, but 1545 hit us hard enough to also BREAK LEXAN!!!

This game is not supposed to be like battle bots. Some robots play actual defense by just being in the way. Others just like to ram people - and that is all they did. 1545 was an example of this - after they scored their 3 tetras in the bottom of a goal to make a row they were off to ram the other alliance. 539 capped during the qualification rounds, but all during the finals, played hard and tipped 616, 401, and were disable many times. If they were disabled for tipping 401 - why not for tipping 616? Was there a difference? They pushed both robots up high on purpose. This confuses me.


Was anyone else there or watching the webcast and saw this? Please post your thoughts and opinions on either or both of these situations - it can't be changed now but I would still like to hear.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Whether or not 539 was un-GP or will continue to play un-GP, in my opinion it would be un-GP to boycott them. Being professional means you will continue to perform at competition regardless of things not going your way or others not playing by the rules. Just because they were not gracious or professional does not mean that you should be.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I object. The referees are NOT professionals, they are volunteers. The opinion of Woodie does not matter in this case. Firstly, you go to ask him about an incident he may or may not have seen, and present him with what you perceived to have happened. In doing so, you presented it in such a way that there was only one answer. Secondly, he is not a referee, so his opinion on what should or should not have happened is irrelevant at the event. His opinon will matter durring the Monday confrence call.

The referees have a very difficult job. Video replay does not matter, it is expressly forbidden in the rules for a ref to look at a video. If it was not obvious to the ref from their point of view, then the robot was not obviously in.

Talking to a referee immediately following the match is the best way to get a proper explanation for why there were or were not penalties, not asking a celebrity their opinion on the matter.

Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

You entered the loading zone to use it as a safe zone, not to load tetras. If that is the case, then you are not protected. See G12 and G15

Wetzel

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I agree that this is not very graciously professional at all, but don't forget that the rules state that you must be in the loading zone with the intent to receive a tetra to be eligible for the 30 point penalty.

<G15> A ROBOT may not interfere with an opposing ROBOT while any part of the opposing ROBOT is
touching its LOADING ZONE and the ROBOT is in the process of retrieving/receiving a TETRA.

I didn't see it myself but from what you described, just backing into the zone may not be enough, especially if you guys were holding a tetra while trying to score on a goal. It all depends on the opinion of the ref, which incidentally, you have to respect either way. I do see how this could be argued either way, but it's sort of done now.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

We understand that the refs are volunteers, but one of the refs at VCU did not even know about the 10 second rule. After our match with 1545 (read my post above) they were required to count with their hands above their heads.

In the match with 539, we were obviously in, whether they pushed us in or whether I back in should not be in question, as we were were in the safety of the loading zone either way. After 539 tipped us and they were able to untangle theirselves from us and drive away - we were still in the loading zone.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

We know its done now - but we still know that we are right. The way our lift is deisgned, we could have actually picked up another tetra. From this picture already on Sparky's website you can see that we have 3 forks and I also explained to Lisa that we could pick up another tetra if we needed to. http://www.sparky384.com/media/galle...SCF0017?full=1

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Wow John ... how can you even mention "Gracious Professionalism" in a post like that??

For all of you whining about gracious professionalism during a match - when you are in a match you are competing to win within the rules of the game. Rules which are interpreted and enforced by HUMAN, VOLUNTEER, referees ... WHOSE DECISIONS ARE FINAL. Gracious professionalism is NOT about what happens during a match, but about all of the stuff that happens when you are not competing in a match. To come on here and whine about bad/missed calls, rough play, and boycotting another team is EXTREMELY UN-"GP", ESPECIALLY when you are mis-quoting (or ad-libbing) the rules.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

OK, I object. Strongly, loudly, forcefully, and completely. This post, and the behaviors and responses promoted by this post, are totally irresponsible and unacceptable. You are completely out of line with these comments.

I don't know why you are participating in the FIRST program, or what you perceive you are getting out of it. I am not going to tell you what you should or should not believe about the goals of FIRST, how it should impact your life. I am not going to play "values police" and tell you that all your views are wrong because they are not consistent with the stated values of FIRST, or how those values should be reflected in the implementation and play of the game. You are going to have to figure out those things for yourself.

But while you are doing that you need to think about the example that you, as a teacher, are setting for the students on your team. Are spite, villification, revenge, and retribution really the traits you want to display to your team? Are these the characteristics by which you want your entire team to be known to the FIRST community?

Please remember what was said at the close of the VCU regional. Sometimes things go the way you want, but other times they may not. What happens during the build season and at the competition may seem important at that moment. However, what is much, much more important is what you do with that experience after the competition is over. You can take the experience and use it as a point from which to grow and improve yourself and your team. Or you can become petulant and sulky, fill your future with thoughts of revenge and blow any thoughts of inspiration and leadership right out the window.

As you are thinking this through, I hope you will recognize just how unacceptable your comments are. And at every upcoming competition event that you attend, I hope you will go out of your way to find every volunteer referee, judge, field attendant, score keeper, and stage hand, and apologize.

-dave lavery

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Whoa. It seems to me as if there's alot of flaming on referees, volunteers, and individual teams going on here (and in other threads as well). I'm not in a position to preach or anything, as I'm barely old enough to be a mentor myself, but I have a hard time believing that calls/descisions were made with malicious intent (Do you really think they said "Lets make call Y just so we can see person Z fly into a fit of rage?"). People make mistakes. The drivers, the coaches, the referees. They're all human. What's done is done. My team has been on (what I perceived anyway) as the raw end of the deal, so I know it's no fun, but maybe we can leave team numbers out of the rants. Or just not rant so much at all.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Good response Dave. I totally agree.
There were many points in the competition where teams actions were interpreted as non-GP. What matters is what you do about it. Dragging it out doesn't solve the problem any more. Instead, re-asses your current condition, and make the best of it you can!
Sparky (384) did a great job of discovering our 1 little hidden weakness that we hoped no-one would catch:
http://www.raptar.net/img_8109.jpg
This basically put us in the same position as if we'd been tipped. We couldn't use our arm. But was this non-GP? No. They simply discovered an aspect of our design that allowed them to legally disable our subsystem. What did we do about it? We didn't even stop to growl about it, we made the best we could and continued playing, now playing Defense with Sparky (hope we didn't do any damage, I know we walked away with one of our wheel treads lopped off and our camera servo in pieces. Tis' OK though, gave us something to do for the next match!) and continued play.
Congrats 384 for your keen observation. I commemorate your ability to identify this aspect of our design, and give us a new challenge.
Thank you.
GP is also not something that resides only within the playing field. I know before one of our matches, I overheard a mentor of one of the opposing alliances was having trouble finding bungees to give to the students in the queuing line to strap onto the bot for the next match. I gave them all our bungees that we had used to hold our robot down in our crate, just so they could compete, even against us. We ended up tieing our bot down with tie wraps in our crate because of this :) They slammed us quite a bit that match, but you know what? I was glad that we were able to be slammed because we had helped them get what they needed to run. Bring on the Damage, If thats what it means!
I also will say, that I have been concerned about several teams/mentors etc. I saw quite a few mentors who were getting quite hot-headed over the competition. I also saw some mentors treating students very negatively. Is this how you would treat this student if they were your own child?
I know that tension can get high in the heat of competition, and the mentors really do care about there team, but to be blunt, this competition is not for you, its for the students. Most mentors are already engineers. The purpose of FIRST is to inspire todays youth in engineering, to build a greater future for the world of engineering.
I am not saying mentors are not important.
Mentors are there to support, and assist. Not to play the role of a student (There's a reason driving coaches cannot touch the controls. They are there to coach.)
I also think that mentors need to keep a closer watch on their hands, and where they are. They shouldn't be on the robot, unless heavy lifting / general help is being executed. They shouldn't be on the computer, both pre-regional and at the events, whether its programming, or (especially) designing.
While there was much at VCU that seemed negative, I have to say that for every negative person/thing, I saw another 100+ positive persons/things. Many mentors are doing a wonderful job with their teams. This really cannot be done without their support.
Overall, keep in mind that its not about who wins, its about the experience that you gained through the FIRST experience. It will change your life if you let it, and I guarantee you, it's for the better. ;)

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Dave, I agree with the sentiment, but I can't bring myself to feel it with the same forcefulness; this individual, pyroslev, is no teacher, but a student with a bit of a maturity deficit. I make this accusation on the basis of the notation in his profile that reads "Birthday: May 2, 1987", and on the low overall quality of the reasoning exhibited in that post. His assertion that the referees were lacking in "professional quality" because a student could determine the position of the robot is demonstrative of a lack of understanding of the actual rules and customs of FIRST, and of a sense of righteous indignation fuelled by his misconceptions.

Pyroslev, I can recall a couple of occasions where I've questioned the efficacy of the referees--never so discourteously, but I've occasionally wondered what possesses them to make such bad calls, at some crucial moments. Of course, having refereed various things myself, I've seen sufficient empirical evidence in my own mistakes to verify that the position of a referee is a difficult one, and that perfection is unrealizable. As competitors, we all learn this sooner or later, and plan for it--I reiterate, we are wrong to expect perfection, and we are ineffective competitors if we let our perceptions of success and failure ride upon this expectation.

Meanwhile, I acknowledge that you are right to point out the errors that you perceive, and do whatever you can to see them remedied--but for now, an education in gracious professionalism is the order of the day for you, if you truly wish to get anything out of participation in FIRST.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

A similar loading zone situation occurred at Sacramento. Team 610 had backed into a loading zone during a pushing contest with another team. I was the referee in front of said loading zone, and it was obvious to me that they did not enter the zone with the intent of getting a tetra. The robot was sitting there, the HP had not left the mat, AND they had not once loaded a tetra onto their bot all weekend.

One ref believed it to be a violation of the rules, but it was fairly clear that 610 had never intended to load a tetra and was using it as a safe zone, or to draw penalties. Now I know it wasn't as clearcut that your team wasn't loading, but you even said you were just sitting there, which means the other team did not violate the rules.

I'm not even going to go into where you question the integrity of the referees and the teams you specifically mentioned, because I could be writing all night. I hope you understand how completely wrong you are.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

but then again if this is the worst thing that has happened to you or your team this year- you should consider yourselve fortunate

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I agree, after working 6 weeks on the hardest thing in your life so far, and then getting to compete in a good environment where gracious professionalism is around, that's a blessing.

The team in question did do us over a few times, we know that. But I'm not complaining not because we won awards, but because in the greater scheme of things, a team that ticks us off doesn't matter. We helped and had fun with so many teams, with so many people, that we don't want to spend the time or energy ruining the experience. The team in question will learn and will burn down in it's current form, only to rise from the ashes a better team. We have numerous times, I think they will too.

Congrats to 401, 122, and 435 on their win, and 388 on winning the Engineering Inspiration award.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

A little off topic but...
For those of you who know Dee T., Senior Mentor from VA and all-around-go-to-person for the VCU regional, (she is going to kill me ;) ) had a crate dropped on her foot on Sat.
Get well messages can be sent to her big toe at dtomczak@usfirst.org.
And a thanks and even a mention of one thing done right can go a long way to making someone feel better.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Wow, she did? Ouch. Email is going out now...

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Man, I never thought I would see this kind of stuff on a FIRST discussion board. Boycotting other teams? The un-named people aforementioned should be ashamed of themselves for flaming a tenacious team like 539.

I'll tell you a little bit about this team...

When they came down to get their award, there was only 5 people.

To fix their broken robot in the finals, they cut a chunk out of their supplies tote because they didn't have any raw supplies.

They are a private school team, going to one regional, and have no corporate sponsorship.

When this team was given their chance in the finals, picked 2nd round by alliance 8, their captain came up with a smile on his face like he'd been given a million dollars.

Even when their RC went bad, their head electrician (a student) replaced it in one set of quarter final matches, refusing to be replaced by a back up team.

When this team's arm broke they didn't say "man that other team should be boycotted, they play to rough" no, they came back, we switched our strategy and we played our way to the finals.

FIRST is about working with what'cha got, adapting to the game, constantly changing your strategy.

You guys should copy a page out of Lavery's book.


GREAT JOB 339 and 539!! You were the greatest alliance a FIRST 8th seed spot has ever been blessed with!! :D

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

That was well said, Rufus.

Just so you know, all of us watching the webcast over here in West Lafayette were rooting for you guys. Your first round upset was amazing and your bot was terrific to watch. You guys almost won it all and that is an extraordinary accomplishment. I'm sure you will be making another serious run at Boilermaker. Can't wait to see you guys there! Go 447!

--Carl

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I don't understand why people are getting angry at teams who play defense. Not every team at regionals have professional engineers to help to build a beastly arm, some arms aren't perfect that they can't hold up a tetra, so to be an assest to their alliance they need to limit the scoring of other teams. Every team needs to be prepared for rough play, protecting all key components. Some defense is a little to far (ripping a radio out of bots), but theseteams are only trying to help their alliance. My team, 769, knew our strong points. We had nice traction, good mobility, and our arm interfered better than it stacked, so we said we would play defense. We knew the key to winning was limit the other team instead of trying to win a shoot-out.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

People aren't getting angry at teams who play defense. They are getting angry at the teams who play BattleBots in the middle of a FIRST match.

At the VCU regional, there were many teams that played a perfectly valid defensive strategy during part of all of a match. The effectiveness of the strategy varied, based on the opponents and their own capabilities, and it frequently made for an even more exciting match. Their style of play was legitimate, and consistent with both the objectives of the game and FIRST. But there were also a small set of teams that were clearly "over the line" in terms of their agressive play and the perceived intent to damage/disable their opponents. There were examples of robots repeatedly using their arms to strike opponents that were not in the process of scoring, "spearing" an opponent with a high hit from an arm that is held straight out, ramming into an opponent at full speed with a half-field running start, and similar activities. There was at least one team that committed all of these violations.

Any team may slip up and in the heat of the match make an "agressive play" violation once during the tournament. Nobody is going to jump all over you for that. In that case, you just suck up your penalty points, and move on. But the problems come when a team decides to take on a style of play that is intentionally agressive and repeatedly skirts the edges of these rules. In such cases - and we did see some at VCU - the team is flirting with disaster and deserves any penalties they may receive. If they are warned by the referees, yet still continue with agressive play, then they deserve to be disqualified.

Rule <G25> is quite specific about the intended spirit of play. Everyone should re-read it and be familiar with the expectations for reasonable and unreasonable game play.

Now, having said all that, we also all need to keep things in perspective. Remember, Triple Play is just a game. Mistakes will be made. Bad calls will occur. Teams and robots will do things they shouldn't. Things will be unfair. Blood pressures will rise. But at the end of the day, IT IS STILL JUST A GAME! No one is losing their job, or their home, or their livelihood, or their family, or anything else of real consequence. The most important part of the entire process is what we each do with the experience after the competition is all over. What we take away from the build season, and the competitions, and the involvement with our teams, and how we use those experiences to shape the rest of what we do, is the most important part.

The game ends after two minutes and fifteen seconds. The build season ends after six weeks. Using the experience to help improve yourself and the rest of the world will take the rest of your life.

-dave

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I meant to apologize yesterday but I didnt get a chance to post due to the wiered school internet. I apologize for my comments. I typed that post at midnight in an upset state and pasted it the next day.

I agree that defense robots are good. However, I quote my dad on this, there's need to be "unneccesarily rough'' (NASCAR term). certain teams were rougher than they needed to be.

The point is I was wrong to say what I said. However, I just dont want more teams to suffer the pain that we did. Let's work out the penalty kinks and follow G25 a bit closer.

My deepest apologies for my post.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Ok, back on track, here is the final awards list....

Friday Awards
Imagery Award - 510 Highland Springs Technical Center
Radio Shack Leadership in Controls - 1541 Midlothian High School
Xerox Creativity Award - 447 Ebbett Education Center, Anderson HS, Highland HS (Anderson, IN)
Delphi Driving Tomorrow's Technology - 384 JR Tucker
Kleiner Perkens Kaufield Byers Entrepreneurial Award - 623 Oakton HS (Vienna, VA)
Judges Award for Innovation in Tactical Approach - 1033 Benedictine HS, St. Gertrude HS
Website Design Award - 623 Oakton HS
Autodesk Visualization Award - 435 SE Raleigh HS
Woodie Flowers Mentorship Award - Chuck Harris, Team 623 Oakton HS

Saturday Awards
General Motors Industrial Design - Team 384, JR Tucker
Daimler Chrysler Team Spirit - Team 1086, Deep Run High School
Motorola Quality Award - Team 401, Montgomery Co. Schools
Johnson & Johnson Sportsmanship Award - Team 122, New Horizons Education Center
Rookie Inspiration Award - Team 1541, Midlothian HS
Rookie All Star - Team 1610, Franklin HS
Safety Award - Team 1033, Benedictine HS, St. Gertrude HS
Judges' Award - Team 435, SE Raleigh HS
Highest Rookie Seed - Team 1610, Franklin High School
Outstanding Volunteer - Paula Gulak, Infineon Technologies
Engineering Inspiration Award - Team 388, Grundy HS
Regional Chairman's Award - Team 384, JR Tucker

Regional Winners
122 New Horizons Regional Education Center, Hampton
401 Montgomery County High Schools
435 SE Raleigh (NC) High School

Finalists
339 Commonwealth Governor's School, Fredericksburg
447 Ebbett Education Center, Anderson HS, Highland High School (Anderson, IN)
539 Trinity Episcopal School

I feel like I have to defend my team
 

Its kind of sad to see what this forum has turned in to. I will not say the actual name of this very Un GP team who have said some very untrue thing . Previously in this thread on page 4 this team accused my team (1545) of some very Un GP actions which actually made me laugh because they were blown totally out of proportion. This unnamed team accused of repeatedly ramming them and pinning them for longer then 10 seconds. They also accused us of breaking their frame and lexan. Except for the accidental breaking of their frame (The result of them using to tubing that was to small) the rest of the accusations are totally false. I was the coach for my team during the match that they are talking about and know for a fact that we did not pin them for longer then 10 seconds because i made sure that our drive backed up the required 3 feet before going in the pin again. I know that we did not repeatedly ram them because f or us to achieve a speed where can be considered ramming takes our robot about 6 feet. NO we did not break their lexan I saw their bot after the match and there was no broken lexan. Yes we did break their frame but that was an accident. WE DID NOT PURPOSEFULLY ATTEMPT TO BREAK THEIR ROBOT. Since this forum has turned in to talk about teams being Un GP lets talk about the above accusatory team. After the above match a few members from their team came over to our pit area and started cursing at us about how we broke their frame. Yes you read correctly cursing. If this is not an example of a team being Un GP somebody please tell me what is. After we found out about their broken frame we went over to their pit to offer our help and materials. We even offered them a ride over to the local Lows to get any materials that neither us nor them had. They vary rudely sad no. I don't think this team understood the part of the manuel that said that there is a possibility that you robot will get damaged.

Another example of Un GP action on the field is the blatant acts of cheating done by little flip in all the finals. The y continuously tipped robots over on purpose. The first seed alliance which my team was part of lost because of little flips cheating. The first round of the quarter finals the red alliance which my team was on along with Sparky and 1279 were up against the 8th seed alliance which had little flip on it. The first round we beet the blue alliance Red 49 Blue 00 (1-0-0) in this match there was no cheating. But in the next match Lil flip rammed Sparky so hard that they got stuck under Sparky pining them between the wall a goal and themselves thus taking them out for the rest of that match. That match ended with the score being Red 31 Blue 31 (1-0-1). The Third match the Blue alliance on with out any cheating that I could see. It ended with the score being Red 26 Blue 32 (1-1-1). In the last match between us they placed their arm over top of Sparky and then proceeded to pull out their operator control thus deactivating their bot, again taking out Sparky which along with 1279 getting tangled on the other side of the field caused us to lose the match Red 03 Blue 49 which took us out of the finals. Littil flip continued using these tactics through the rest of the finals :mad:

<G25> Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. However, Triple Play is a highly interactive contact game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the tipping, entanglement, or damage occurs where it is not a part of normal game play, at the referee’s discretion, the offending team/ROBOT may be disqualified from that match. Repeated offenses could result in a team/ROBOT being disqualified from the remainder of the Regional or Championship competition.

Examples of normal game play interaction include:
• Pushing low on another ROBOT.
• Blocking or pushing on a TETRA that is in possession of an opposing ROBOT.
• Establishing ROBOT position to block access to a GOAL by an opposing ROBOT.
• Using an arm or gripper to prevent an opposing ROBOT from placing a TETRA on a GOAL.
Examples of inappropriate robot interaction include:
• Pushing high on a robot and tipping it over.
• Using an arm or gripper to repeatedly strike an opposing ROBOT that is not in the process of placing a TETRA on a GOAL.
• Placing any part of your ROBOT under an opposing ROBOT, and then lifting to flip it over.
• Using an arm and gripper to pull a ROBOT by grabbing electrical cables, hoses, etc. or disabling a ROBOT by tearing out wires or hoses.
• Grasping or attaching to a TETRA that is in the possession of an opposing ROBOT, and using it to pull over the opposing ROBOT.
• Ramming another ROBOT at high speed.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

People have also been talking in this forum about how bad the refs were and someone even said the played favorites. I seriously doubt this. Yes I agree the reefing not the as good as it could have been but your going to have problems with refs in any compotion. In my teams last qualifying match one of the Refs mad a blatant bad call which prevented us from being able to pick an alliance. The refs call was hitting somebody in the loading zone. What had happened was our bot pushed the other alliances robot in to the loading zone in a way that they could not load a tetra. The HP for that team never left his touch pad either. And if I recall rule G12 and G 15 show that it was a bad call.
<G12>
The purpose of the LOADING ZONE is to allow ROBOTS to quickly and safely receive TETRAS without interference while HUMAN PLAYERS and/or field attendants are in close proximity, and then return to play. The LOADING ZONE is not intended to serve as a “perpetual safety zone” to prevent interaction with opponent ROBOTS for the entire match. Tethers, tape measures, long extension arms, and other devices intended to contact the LOADING ZONE to maintain the “non-interference constraint” defined in <G15> while the ROBOT drives around the remainder of the field are against the spirit of the rule and will not be permitted. Such devices must be removed before the ROBOT will be permitted to play in the match.
<G15>
A ROBOT may not interfere with an opposing ROBOT while any part of the opposing ROBOT is touching its LOADING ZONE and the ROBOT is in the process of retrieving/receiving a TETRA.
BUT WE ARE NOT COMPLAINING THESE WERE VOLUNTEER REFEREES. We contested the call and the refs said the call was finale. We left it at that.
If anybody has any problems with this post then pleas let me know.

Re: I feel like I have to defend my team
 

I think many would agree that acting with "Gracious Professionalism" means not running around calling other teams 'un-GP'. I really wish people would stop abbreviating Gracious Professionalism because I think the true meaning of it gets forgotten. A key part of the phrase is "professional". Being professional about something means that you should not post in public forums singling out teams, calling them names, and making accusations. It means to act in a manner that your grandmother would be proud of. It means keeping things civil and not making personal attacks against people or teams.

Someone acting in a "Graciously Professional" manner would try to discuss this topic in a rational way without making accusations and instead offer (and, more importantly perhaps, accept from others) constructive criticism.

If you are the coach for your team then you have even more responsibility to hold yourself to a higher standard. Regardless of what someone else may have said about you, you need to be the bigger person in this situation and not sink to the level of personal attacks.


While I have quoted one particular post here that irked me, there's been many people lately saying the same kinds of things. Let's all try to remember that we are working towards a common goal, and in the grand scheme of things we really are all on the same team.

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

Here we go again.

Look guys, allow me to hit the pause button.
Everybody Freeze.

Now, listen closely.

The first thing that needs to happen after everyone reads this post is to stop pointing fingers. OK? Yes, there was much that happened at VCU that was quite bashing, and it forced teams to question the intentions of the other teams, and their views on Gracious Professionalism.

Yes, in this years game, we've seen alot more impacts, shifty plays, etc. Perhaps its the fact that there's 6 bots on the field. Who knows? The point is, life goes on, and as Dave said, its only a game.
I know we took damage this year, and (accidentally) we gave some out too. I think there were lots of teams who accidentally dealt damage this year. I see the positive side to this; now you've had experience repairing your bot a bit more than usual.

Look, we are all on the same side here guys. VCU is in the past now.
Don't bicker over the past.

I makes me frown to see the number of finger-pointing posts alone in this thread, meant to discuss the events and outcomes of VCU.
How does this represent our Regional?
How does this represent your Team?

What has happened to all the neat discussions over design and plans for the future (like our hover-design we're already prototyping for '06), discussions over how we plan to change our community?

One thing I really miss most in FIRST was the team-to-team partnerships we formed back in '02.
Dave, little did ya know it, but I actually worked alongside you in '02 through Team 927, NOVA First, who partnered with Herndon during the 2002 season. I had no idea who you were then, and then in '03 I recognize you and bop myself in the head. Anyway, that partnership cultured us as rookies to understand a little more about what Gracious Professionalism meant. Here was another team, taking time away from their already hurried 6-week project to help us with ours. I miss those days.
What's happened to those team-to-team partnerships?

Our Group here at RAPTAR values those experiences, so one of the things we want to gather for next year is a system for hooking up teams in the state of VA (for starters). And I don't just mean checking off "Wish to Mentor" or "Wish to be Mentored". I mean, physically calling a contact for each team, gathering contact information and interests, and getting teams together. We want to strengthen the FIRST Community, as well as expand it.

Look guys, I honestly don't know where this thread is going, but here's the deal.
I'd like to hear a "nothing but positive" comments thread from here on out. Why should we be making negative comments discussing our regional?
Personally, our team had a great time, even past all the troubles we had. And we're sorry if we caused any damage. Yes, we occasionally "jumped the gun" trying to get to a section of the field and block, and ended up giving others a bump. We tried our best not to harm other bots, while playing strategically.

All in all guys, I think we need a new motto. I know Brandon has coined "Search before you Post!" but before that, I suggest "Think before you Post." It could save lives...

Re: VCU NASA Regional
 

I would like to apologize to 539 for publicly ousting them even though my thoughts agree with that of other teams that were not even in the tournement.