Are The Penalties Too High?
 

Now that we have a weekend of regional competitions under our belt, I would like to bring up a question that I heard many people asking during the NASA/VCU regional:

Why are the penalties so high?

I am, of course, extrapolating that question out of comments that sounded more like:

-"These penalties are absurd!" or,
-"The penalties are ruining the game this year" or,
-"Why should we get an automatic loss (effectively) just because our alliance partner accidentally bumped an opposing robot while they were in the loading zone?"

As you might imagine, I didn't have time to ask each person who made such an exclamation about their personal opinions concerning the penalties. I figured the best way to get an idea of what the FIRST community thinks about the penalties this year would be to start a thread and include a poll.

Back to the question at hand:
Why are the penalties so high?

I believe there is an answer for this, and I had the good fortune to speak with Mr. Lavery about the subject. Basically, the creators of this year's game were very intent that NO ONE violate rules that could potentially endanger the health and well-being of the field attendants and referees. I agree with that principle and I think that it is most definitely working.

As the competition in Richmond progressed, the number of penalties (particularly those for interfering with a robot in the loading zone) decreased. Play became much safer [for the field attendants and referees]. The reason, I believe, is because teams knew that they could not afford to receive a penalty and still have any chance at winning the match. Before the quarterfinals our team (Team 619) met with our alliance partners and the one phrase that was repeated the most: "No matter what happens, NO PENALTIES."

I know there were plenty of people in Richmond who felt that the penalties were much too high this year. Please feel free to post your opinions and your underlying rationale.

-Andrew

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

well at corvalis (dispite recent events like what happen with are bot) sorta high. i think that why the rules are so high is because they think about safety more than anything... but thats just me. ;)

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

There is no "Yes they are too high" option that doesn't say they are ruining the game.

I feel the penalties are towards the high end, but by no means are they ruining the game. I think the only thing that would be game-ruining about penalties would be if they were inconsistantly called.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

I definitely agree with that. Although, i must say the penalties, allow no wiggle room this year. You have to be perfect to win, which in many cases is impossible to do. Last year most penalties were 10 pointers, which could easily be made up with two balls. This year, you need 4 tetras to make up the 10 point penalties, or 10 to make up the 30. I really dont see many teams stacking over 9 a round by themselves, making it that much harder to score/play. I like that FIRST is trying to get us to play fair/safe/gp and making us try that much harder, but i do think these penalties are a bit harsh.

Maybe it isnt just the points being the problem, but the strict interpretations FIRST is using this year. The loadbearing issue as well as the touching of another bot in a loading zone are ones that come to mind.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

Yes I do feel the penalties are too high. But I feel that the only way to change it is at Nationals were you kind of start from scratch, where as if you changed it for the upcoming regionals, some teams might say that they were not given that chance. But you must also realize that those were the first week regionals and FIRST learns from them. As people have said, the penalties did go down significantly.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

The rankings in the end don't truly reflect how a team is really doing just because of penalties. A very good team might be hit with constant penalties from alliance partners. In the end with alliance pairings, some potentially very good teams would be forgotten. Too many games were decided by penalties, and if it happens in elimination, it just makes the losing team feel even worse knowing that they could have won.

In any case, I am in support of penalties, but 30 pts in a game when scores rarely go higher than 40 is not right.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

I don't think that the penalties are too high. FIRST wanted to discourage certain behaviors. Many teams do not take the time to avoid the impact of penalties, but they should. It is very easy to avoid penalties, just have you human player take care, and watch how you play defense. It is easy to play a certain style of defense and naver have to put the refs in a situation where they have to make a call.

I just think that penalties are easy to avoid if you prepare for them. Teams should spend more time talking about how to avoid penalties during their strategy sessions.

Good luck to everyone, and lets keep it penalty-free!

Rob

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

As a ref, looking back at old rules and remembering my experiences last year, I would say the penalties are too high. Surely everyone remembers the 2002 game, where at first you got "a warning" then you would get a 1 point penalty if the refs thought you acknowledged that they didn't like what you were doing and you continued to do so. Then last years 10 point penalties, which I'll admit did make sense from a safety standpoint. But a little bit less this year than last year. Maybe the penalty system should be toned down a little bit, or maybe the game should be designed in a way such that penalties don't need to be given for safety reasons. Who am I to judge though, all I do is ref them and enjoy building. Just a bit of insight relative to older games of FIRST past.
-Rob

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

As stated earlier, the penalties are so drastic in "size" that it really puts a damper on your scouting techniques. An excellent team could be paired up in as little as three matches, where they are hit with one 30 point penalty in each, and loose all three matches, and therefore fall in overall rankings. When the game was originally designed, I don't think it was realized that the scores would be on an average of 40 points on the high side, and 20 points on the low side per match. If the first week regionals high scores of 70 points on the low side, to 90 points on the high end of the scale become our average for scoring over the next week, then this could self-correct the scoring situation. However, with the penalties being as high as 30, and the scores so low, we can all just be grateful that scores aren't negated in this years competition. :(

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

Nope, as Andy Baker said, the penalties are all part of the challenge of the game, its just one more obstacle to overcome and challenge us a little more, as well as keep the all-important safety of the robots and people.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

I wouldn't say that the penalties ruin the game, they make the game more interesting and the penalties determine who wins in most matches. There are certainly a lot more being given out this year, but they also make the drivers and human players be more aware.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

I don't think that the penalties are too high, I think teams need to learn to play the game by the rules. Penalties are part of this year's strategy. Maybe this game is a bit more complicated than we would like to think...

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

I don't think the penalties are too high either. My team is known for being somewhat aggressive in its defense, but we had no problem following the rules. Everyone on the drive team knew what would cause a penalty and we avoided them. It's that simple. I know that mistakes happen sometimes (we got a 10-pt penalty that we didn't deserve), but the refs' decisions are final. Everyone has to follow the rules, and while the penalties might be on the high side, they seem to be serving a purpose.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

the penalties are respectably the correct amount of deductible points. the only thing you need to do to reduce penalties is communicate with your alliance members!!!!! it is easy to stay away from penalties for your own team but hard for the alliance.

Re: Are The Penalties Too High?
 

The penalties are fine. What you don't do is tell your alliance partner to not hit an opponent in the loading zone and then go do it yourself. This angers people like me. Play a fair game. Push, shove, race, but steer clear of what you know is wrong.

The practices matches are there for you to fine tune your driving and get used to a competitive, fast-paced game that requires split-second decision making in order to avoid the penalties. In two days, I committed only one 10pt penalty [accidentally]. Had I been a careful driver, I not only would've not committed the penalty, I would've picked up the tetra faster. In the end, I was to blame. Not the rules.