3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Upd..._Update_15.pdf

Lots of changes!

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Looks good... whipping it into better shape I see

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

clarifying our concerns....thank you FIRST

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Man am I glad for these changes.

The biggest in my mind is the change to a larger human player loading zone on the human side. There was probably over 150 points in penalties given at BAE for human players being outside of the loading triangle or other minor human mistakes. The human player has a tough enough job as it is without having to get into a little triangle. A 48" x 48" square is much more reasonable, even if it does throw off the whole triangle motif of the field.

I also like the clarification on rule <g17>.

-Andy A.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Not so many changes so much as putting into writing what the referees did during the first weekend of regional events.

At FLR, I heard all of this from the referees. They also announced it for drivers during meetings.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Awarding an alliance the unpenalized score of their opponent (or themselves, depending on which is lower) for RP is a fairly radical change to the ranking system. It's an excellent idea, because your ranking shouldn't be hampered because you played against a really tough team that made a minor mistake.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Wow! They added colors to the update!

I guess I have to load in the new update to FIRSTsearch.

EDIT:
OK FIRSTsearch now has the Update #15 loaded in and ready to go! :)
...I should really add that as a cron job too.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Thank goodness they removed all the "and the tetra will not be scored" language. It was very difficult for the refs to watch the match AND track which tetras don't count.

Wetzel

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

I think the biggest change is the alliance choosing thing. It removes the whole strategy of making it to the top then choosing your toughest opponent for your partner. It'll make for some intresting finals in my opinion. Plus, we might not hear every single person say, "We graciously accept," anymore.

-Tony K

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

I'm just curious, say you are in the top 8, and you make a pick, but your pick declines, do you immediately get to pick again? I appologize if this was already in the rules and I missed it.

As for the update, I really do like the change from Triangle to square. Even though it doesn't keep with the motif, it is a good change. I saw so many times human players looking down at the floor to make sure they are in the zone, while a point robot arm was right over their head. Hopefully this will no longer be of concern. Also, it is better for people with big feet.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

MODIFY 8.4.1
...
In descending order, each Alliance Captain will invite to join them, a team ranked below them in the standings, which has not already accepted or
declined an invitation, to join an Alliance. The invited Team Representative will step forward and either accept or decline the invitation. If the team accepts, it is moved into that Alliance. If the team declines, it is not eligible to be picked again and the Alliance Captain extends another invitation to a different team. If an invitation from a top eight
alliance team to another top eight alliance team is accepted, the team currently ranked
ninth will move up to become the number eight alliance. If an invitation from a top
eight alliance team to another top eight alliance team is declined, the declining team
may still invite teams to join their alliance, however, it cannot accept invitations from

I am pretty sure that means immediately.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

It doesn't say, but in former years, if someone declined, the picking team immediately got to repick. If it was different, it would let the #2 team screw over the #1 team, you see what I'm saying.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

The removal of the "This Tetra will not be scored" Brings up some intresting situations, Think about this:
Last 30 seconds, your team sets up a row against your driver station, and a row against the autoloader side of the field, but your missing the one tetra in the corner, Last 15 seconds, you can quickly grab a tetra but you would take a penalty but cap corner, Would you do it?

Well, 2 rows x 10 points + 3 points for the cap = 23 points, meaning you net 13 points after the penality.

intresing :D

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

I have to say I disagree with the addition to G15:

This means that a robot can grab a tetra from a loading zone, move all but one wheel off of the zone, and cap (since a robot with a moderately sized arm is now within capping distance), and there is nothing the opposing alliance can do to stop them. Personally, I feel that if a robot is in the manual loading station, and the human player is back on the pad (i.e. the robot is enabled), the robot is done receiving a TETRA. Simularly, at the auto loading station, once a robot is "in possession" of a tetra, they are done loading (in possession would be defined the same way it is in football, a robot must be holding or otherwise in control of the tetra),

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

I understand what you are saying ... but it is a trade-off. In order to watch/see everything going on in this game it will require AT LEAST 12 referees (48 for the Championship). I doubt any regional will be able to field a team of 12 refs. This change takes a bit of the burden off of the refs as it is now clearly defined, and much easier to determine, exactly when the "interference" violation <G15> would be applicable.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

I interpret rule G12 to mean that a robot may not use the loading zone in the way you mentioned. Never fully leaving the loading zone falls within the spirit of the the "perpetual safety zone" rule.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Alright, I really hate to be the negative one, but I was just wondering how some of the First week Regional teams, especially those who are not going to another regional feel about about these changes. I mean, i understand about the whole making things more clear and safer for the people, but it seems that maybe some of these changes could have made a difference for some teams and even some of the rankings at the regional. I know that for our team one thing that would have been different is that instead of recieving a tie for a match that we would have won the match due to a so called illegally scored tetra that was capped on a goal. if we had those three points, that would have changed our ranking record from being 4-3-1 to 5-3.

I do want to get across that im not saying this to try and seem like i want to challenge what FIRST has said, but just get the input of other teams that are in the same boat as my team, in that we attend a regional the First week and now have all these changes that might have made some differences in the outcome of matches and the regional, possibly. Well, i guess this is enough ranting on my part, well not really ranting, because im not really angry, but just a concerned FIRST Student.

Mike O'Brien

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

I agree, I'm not happy that a major decision like this has taken place that could have really affected prior regional rankings. I understand, but there is an odd precedent set here. What if the size of the triangles on the floor was changed after 4 regionals?

But at the same time the rule has gotten more harsh Mike. Now no part of your feet may be touching the outside of the rectangle, compare that to the triangle at VCU where all you had to have was part of both feet inside.

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

from the update under modification of 8.4.1:
"...alliance. If an invitation from a top eight alliance team to another top eight alliance team is declined, the declining team may still invite teams to join their alliance, however, it cannot accept invitations from other alliances. The process continues until Alliance Eight..."

so does that mean if team #1 invites team #8 to join and #8 declines, then #8 cannot accept from team #2 but team #8 can invite other teams to join their alliance? >>lost<<

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Nehalita, yes that is correct. If Team #1 Invites Team #8 and Team #8 declines the invitation, then Team #2 CANNOT invite Team #8. Although Team #8 can invite any team they want from the remaining teams.

Joe, I see how the rule is a bit more harsh that both feet have to be inside of the Rectangle box, but i mean the other thing to look at is that the rectangle offres a larger area of "In the Loading Zone" than the Triangle did, even with the only part of both feet have to touch the triangle loading zone rule. I know it is a stretch to wish that something could be done to compensate the teams that competed in the First week of regionals that these rule changes affected, but you can't blame a FIRSTaholic High School Student for wishing.

Mike O'Brien

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

According to the head ref at GLR, during the drivers meeting he said you can take a tetra and sit there the whole match you please, but if you attempt to cap a goal, you are vulnerable to the defense of the opposing alliance...

Re: 3/10 UPDATE 15!
 

Any thoughts on how the Update to the G15 rule affects the previous Update 4 examples #6-7? If the "process of retrieving" completes once a robot physically leaves the zone, and I can't touch him until he leaves the zone, then that means I can't block as in the case of Ex6?
http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Upd..._Update_04.pdf
I might possibly not initiate the contact, but in blocking, there might be some pushing back and forth. Clearly their robot is not "in the process of retrieving" because he already has a tetra, but with the new definition, I guess I would be penalized in this case?