Religion in Education
 

I searched the board before posting incase this was already brought up, and I found nothing. Before I continue, I want to make sure that people understand that I'm not trying to make a "What's your religion..." or "How do you feel about religion..." thread, just a "In YOUR OPINION, is this right...".

Here's the story that created this thread:
In my AP English class, we're reading "Crime and Punishment" (Part I to be exact). During class, my teacher started bringing up a lot of references to Christianity. After about 20 minutes of listening to all these references, I asked the teacher to politely stop doing it (by raising my hand and whatnot). When I asked this, the teacher got a major attitude with me and this, and told me no, because of a bunch of reasons (I kind of tuned her out after she got an attitude).

Another story (happened to my friend):
In math class, she was taking a test, one with an extra credit question. When she got to the question, it said something about the famous satan/apple/adam/eve incident. ** Mind you this isn't really all that bad, since it was an extra credit question, so you weren't forced to answer this...and sorry for not really remembering the whole thing, it was a bit ago. **

One last story (also happened to my friend):
In her computer class, she had to do this worksheet for her daily assignment. One part of the worksheet said "Who were the first couple on Earth?" After reading this, she stood up & fought with the teacher because she (and I) feel that it shouldn't of been put on the worksheet...and to no suprise she lost (the people in class are rather ignorant and such...so she just kind of didn't do it instead).

My question to this is, do you think religion should be brought into public school teachings were it is not ment to be? If this had happened in a religion class, it would be ok (because you know, religion class talks about religion). But to be discussing a topic that has no relevance to the material presented, isn't that going a little to far?

This wouldn't be necessarily so bad though, if it wasn't one-sided. If, for example, the teachers referred to above, had used another religion along side of it, it'd be better (but still wrong in my opinion).

Please do keep in mind that I'm not asking what your religion is, I'm just asking if you think that brining religion into material in discussion is a justified thing to do.

Re: Religion in Education
 

I think it's ok to be brought into the classroom in some respects. It can be discussed and in fact I think we should all learn about the different religions (which is part of the NY Global History Curriculum), for a better understanding of them and the people who practices them. I do not feel, however, that it should be assumed that everyone knows stories from the Bible, etc. Although sometimes it DOES have relevance to the topic, in which it would be ok to teach, but not promoted.

Personally I feel teachers should not give there opinions about anything in class, unless its part of a dicussion and other people are sharing. I.e. teachers should not teach there opinion.

Re: Religion in Education
 

I'm all for religion in a historical context, and some of the stories and ways in each religion. I'm all for that, I mean, how can we describe the whole middle east situation now without going into religion? What about the Inquisition? The Crusades?

Now, the moment that it goes from history to preaching, then I'm against it. There is a difference between knowledge and belief.

Re: Religion in Education
 

religion has been a part of humanity forever. I think somewhere around 90% of the earths population participate in some form of religious belief.

Its a major factor in who we are, and why we do what we do as a species.

In public schools one religion should not be promoted over another. No relgion should be taught as the correct belief system

but to competely ban all references to any aspect of any and all religions, to act as if religion does not exist, that would be bizzare. That would be like pretending physics doenst exist and no one were allowed to mention it.

The idea of the first couple raises many scientific and mathematical questions. Whether you believe in creation or evolution, most likely there was one original human. The entire human race must have decended from one original person. It is interesting to calculate, based on our knowledge of population growth, how many years ago that person existed.

Also the field of genetics has attempted to trace back all genetic traits to a single ancestor. To call the original couple Adam and Eve can either be taken literally or as a mythological figure of speech.

If a physics question asked how big would the wings on Mercurys feet have to be to allow him to fly with a glide slope of 10 to 1, would you think someone was imposing their religious beliefs on you?

Re: Religion in Education
 

As part of a history lesson, yes, religion should or at least can be brought up because religion has played such a dominant role in human history, the crusades, the inquisition, etc. Mind you, I'm saying the history of the religions, not the history that the religion says occured (ark, adam and eve, etc) in class, the other is not acceptable.

Such questions as are on that worksheet and extra credit question, however, should most certainly NOT belong in a public classroom. Now with Pride and Prejudice, if these are literary references that are a clear part of the novel and play some role in it, then ok, but if the teacher is using this as a religious platform of some sort, then, no.

Re: Religion in Education
 

I think learning about religions isnt a problem unless the teacher themselves shares there morals and beliefs about a specific religion.
Im Catholic, and everyone in my italian class is Catholic too..so since basically the majority of all italians are Catholic, she tought us one class about Catholicism in italy and etc, like we went online and picked our saint name, etc. It wasnt a problem to any of the kids in class because we were all catholic. But itd prolly bother the people in class that werent catholic or christian of some sort.
Other than Italian class, my freshman year in Social Science, aka history, we learned about all different types of religions.

Re: Religion in Education
 

I'll put it like this...

If you're able to be mature about and respect other people's opinion's regarding religion, then yes...

If you want to learn about other religions so that you can gain a higher level of respect and tollerance, then yes...

Re: Religion in Education
 

No faith should be forced upon someone. There isn't a clear line between religious references in class and down right preaching. My english teachers would make references to the bible all the time, in context, of course. None of that bothers me.

Now, what does bother me is if your history teacher, in teaching religions is obvious biased(to say the least) towards one religion. Like saying that anything other than Christianity is heathanism. Given that school trains us all to think a certain way, I'd rather that way be the open minded way.

Thankfully, I've never had or known of a teacher who did, because my town is a very open town, very accepting of everyone's differences.

Re: Religion in Education
 

No.... Bad move on her part. You have to about in a completely differnt way. I would have put in a sarcastic and completly correct way. Ummmm.... is it person or person's?? Also it would probably be pretty hard to figure out when the first humans started popping up just by using a mathematical model of growth. There is pretty good evidence that suggests that human beings came really close to extinction on one occasion.

Re: Religion in Education
 

I don't mind christianity being taught, but I'm probably a little biased. What did make me horribly mad was a history teacher who basically tried to disprove religion the entire year. I don't mind learning about other religions objectively, but I do mind having a teacher trying to force his or her beliefs (or lack thereof) upon me.

Also, as far as evolution is concerned, I believe in both the Christian beliefs and evolution. If you look at a day (as in "On the first day...") as a figurative term, everything still follows the same order. I don't think it is wrong to teach the theory of evolution in schools.

Re: Religion in Education
 

It's alright as long as other religions are acknowledged. according to my religion, the first couple on the earth was not Adam and Eve, so i don't feel i should be marked points off of it.

don't get me wrong, i love learning about other religions. but when one is given precedence over the other, i feel out of place and i just don't belong. i have run into incidences where i have been told that because i am not Christian, i will not go to heaven. of course this is their opinion but i don't like being told this as if it were their decision.

as for that extra credit question, if it had to do with knowing background information, then it's not fair; i don't even know that story and i should be given an equal opportunity to get extra credit. but if it was just using the people/objects as examples, then i feel there is nothing wrong with bringing it up.

Re: Religion in Education
 

For the first statement, that's how I've always felt. I'm okay with religion topics in school, as long as you more than one side to the story...but that never happens. I've read that A & E weren't the first people either, so which would I say? [I'm just supporting this claim].

I can't remember so much on the extra credit question, but I had to do the worksheet one, and I didn't do that. My friend didn't leave it blank though, what she did was put something like "This shouldn't be here because there shouldn't be religion brought into school" (something along the lines of that).

And to Brian Lesser, please to explain to me how you have to be mature to respect other people's opinions, and also you have to respect other people's opinions to be mature (I worded it like this because of the fact that w/ "and", both have to be true; correct me if I'm wrong though and I'll edit this).

Re: Religion in Education
 

so what was the right answer to the question and what did the 'first couple' have to do with computer science (on the test) ?

was it really some odd computer science question? is some syntax called a 'couple' in the language you were useing?

did it mean the first humans or the first couple, as in romeo and juliete? Celopatra and Marc Anthony? Ben and Jaylo? Ben and Jerry?

Re: Religion in Education
 

Touchy issue, very touchy. As far as religion in the classroom or anywhere in the public arena is concerned, you will not get anyone to join your faith/religion if you're going to be biased, closed-minded, or absolutely unknowing with what you're dealing with or with what else is going on in the outside world.

As a Christain myself, I get fairly terrified when another christain comes to me or I see him or her being arrogant and a bit beyond defensive of his or her position and is not in the know. It is this sort of stuff that I see destroying religion. It isn't just Christains, it is the Islamic terrorist extremists, and others.

Raven, it is the sort of stuff you experienced that give religion a bad rep, something that could've easily been avoided.

-Joe

I did not mean to offend anyone in the posting of this. If I did, I apologize.

Re: Religion in Education
 

Id be interested in knowing what the teacher was saying that upset RavenWriter when discussing Crime and punishment. Religious and biblical themes are an intergral part of the novels plot/story. I dont know how you could discuss the book and ignore that part of it?

Re: Religion in Education
 

I think it's fine to discuss the Bible in school. I'm not saying that because I'm Christian, I'm saying that because it's a great piece of literature. Whether you believe in it or not, it's a powerful book just like many other works. It just happens to be a religious text. I guess it was not the best idea to have that question in extra credit unless it said something like "In the Christian religion" or something similar. And like Ken said, Dostoevsky was very Christian, and it's reflected in his writing.. so it's a hard thing to avoid if you're discussing the book. I can understand being offended by someone trying to push their Christian views on you, but if they're just being discussed, what's the big deal?

Re: Religion in Education
 

if you atribute the existance of the human race to mutation from another species, then there would only be one orginal human at the head of our species tree.

Mutations are a singular extreemly rare event. The odds would be astromical against one species producing two mutations in the same lifespan, both of which were the same new species.

Which is a bit of a problem with evolution. If one 'copy' of a new species is produced by genetic mutation, then that creature (person) has no one of its own species to mate with.

The other part, calculating how long it would take to get from 1 person to our present (how many of us are there now?) 8 billion, we have a general idea what our population growth rate has been for the last 2 or 3 thousand years, and it is interesting to project it backwards. Even if you make assumptions (no near extinction events) it still puts a timeframe on our population growth. All Im saying is its an interesting mathematical and genetic question to explore.

Re: Religion in Education
 

I think its ok for teachers to bring up religion in some topics.

History and Lit are good places to use the Bible and whatnot

I am a Christian, but i do think it was wrong for the math teacher to do that, it gives a select group of students an advantage on the test. Dont understand how that fits in with math.....unless it was like, count the apple :yikes:

Re: Religion in Education
 

It was the fact that she kept referencing the bible, and not making any other comparisons. There was no references to other religions that she made.

I just personally feel strongly that there shouldn't be religion brought into education...and having to sit there and listen to her talk about all this got me really upset.

Re: Religion in Education
 

If you ignored her when she was explaining why she was talking about it, how can you continue to complain about it?

There was no reference to Buddhism, because Buddhism played no part in Crime and Punishment. There was no reference to Islam, because Islam played no part in Crime and Punishment.

If you DON'T bring religion into education, you can not learn. Religion plays a major role in determining societal norms, and this was even greater in the past. If you do not discuss the context in which a book was written, then you can not understand the unwritten values that were assumed by the author.


KenWittlief: Speciation (a new species from old) is defined by reproductive isolation. If two things can mate and have fertile offspring, then they are not separate specie. Evolutionary genetics/Darwinian fitness is interesting intellectual stuff.

Wetzel

Re: Religion in Education
 

Lots of great literary work has ties to Christianity and other religions. Fyodor Dostoevsky was Christian, he tied his beliefs into his writing. Why do you have a problem with talking about the relationship between his book and Christianity when you don't seem to have a problem reading a book with Christian ties? Where's the harm in discussing it, provided she isn't preaching it to you? It's just knowledge. Since it seems you aren't Christian, why not consider the bible just as literature? In fact, most English (HS and College) books I've seen usually contain parts of the bible. I guess I can't see how this is harmful or bad in any way.fffffffff

Re: Religion in Education
 

I'm not, I was just giving the situations that brought up this thread, and people have made statements to where I still use that example.

I understand about the no other religions thing in C&P, but that's not exactly true either. I've noticed some connections between that and Satanism.

I'm not gonna touch the last paragraph...I'm not wanting this to become a flamewar or anything like that, I'm just wondering of other people's opinions.

The only problem I have with her discussion on it is when she keeps talking about it for 20+ minutes...like in church.

I haven't read the book, so thus I can't say that I do or don't have a problem reading it (I'm not a big fan of old-time [so to speak] books like this, so it's hard for me to read it).

I wish to ask that we do keep this more on track though, and not make it a direct attack on my way of viewing things. I just want to know the opinions of other's on if they think it's right, and to not try to prove me wrong.

On topic enough for you?
 

A teacher talking about the same subject for 20+ minutes is fine if it relates to what they are supposed to be teaching. If your only problem is that she is talking to much at 20 minutes, just wait.

Just wait until you have a 2 hour 50 minute class for Sociology 101 with 300 other kids with a socialist teacher. :rolleyes:

Wetzel

Re: Religion in Education
 

I find it interesting that this subject is brought up, but I'd like to give my own viewpoint as well. I'm Jewish, but I'm not very religious. I've gotten used to people trying to convert me in school or telling me that my soul will burn for all eternity. If this level of prejudice exists in the classroom, then it is not appropriate, and should be brought up first with the teacher and then with administrators.

First of all, I agree immensely with many points before. If it is a book, such as Crime and Punishment, with a large number of Christian references, then it is appropriate to discuss these references. I will say however, that if a teacher would handle it like church class, that while I would pay attention in class and finish the homework or discussion for what it was worth, the teacher would lose significant respect.

The final and most important thing I'd like to cite is that "religious harassment" is on a person-to-person basis. I am extremely sensitive about it because I've grown up in an environment where my religious beliefs aren't always respected. I have many friends of all faiths, and I have the utmost respect for their views on the world and enjoy learning about them. However, many of their views are differing from mine, and I feel personally that evolution should not be brought into public schools unless it is in a class geared towards the subject, and this class is not part of the required curriculum.

The item that worries me most is that while there are students in the class that are mature and have respect for other beliefs, and a teacher may be lecturing with intention to discuss it as a factor of the story, there are individuals in the class who do not have the maturity to differentiate between discussion and "holy truth". I have the greatest pity for those who can't learn to respect others religions and lifestyles, and a classroom should enforce respect and general knowledge, not blundering ignorance.

Thanks
- Genia

Re: Religion in Education
 

I do have respect for other religions, I have friends that are of many religions. It's not that I think what I believe is better than theirs, and that I can't have a conversation about religion with someone because me and my best friend do that a bit. In my view though, I don't see why my english teacher should bring up Christianity, and that only and make it seem like a church. No, she is not telling us to become a christian and all that, but I don't see how it's actually right to only show one side of things. As I've said before, there's also similarities between C&P and Satanism (I've read the Satanic Bible, and the Christian Bible, and I can make the similarities and such just by what the teacher says). I really hoped this wouldn't turn into an attack on me (which is what it's turning into), I just wanted peoples opinions.

The same goes with my friend (since her situation was the same in some ways). She also has respect for other religions...it isn't like she thinks her beliefs are superior to others.

Re: Religion in Education
 

First, no one's trying to "flame" you, we're just trying to understand what you're saying, but you don't seem to want to be specific, leaving me to believe that you're not sure what you think about what happened.

Anyway, from what you said, do you think it'd be ok if she talked about the references to Satanism and no Christianity?

How exactly is she making it seem like church? Discussing religion is very different from preaching it. And since "she is not telling us to become a christian and all that" then she isn't preaching it. I don't see how you can complain about her talking about the references to religion and things, when you didn't even read the book to know if it truly has a significance or not.

Re: Religion in Education
 

You're right, and I'm sorry. The reason why it seems vague is that no one is really asking questions that goes beyond what I've already said (to my knowledge...if there is any questions like that, let me know and I'll be glad to answer them).

I don't think it'd be okay if she only made refrences to Satanism. I don't think her teaching should be one sided though, when there are two sides (and yes...I do know that not everyone will read the Satanic Bible and such).

The way that I know (to my own knowledge) that it does have reference to Christianity, is that she kept saying that C&P has a lot of illusions to the bible.

Honestly, I never did say she was preaching it. And when I said about her making it feel like church, it is because in church [christian], all the priest talks about is Jesus this and Jesus that...which is what she was doing.

Lets forget about the C&P topic though, for a second. What about the other cases?

Re: Religion in Education
 

Many of my math problems are sample problems. With a math problem, why shouldn't it reference something from a bestselling book?

I see no reason for religion to not be in public schools. I would argue that it is wrong to limit learning.

Wetzel

Re: Religion in Education
 

But for religion to be in public schools, don't you think it should be of every religion, and not just certain types?

What does Adam & Eve, Satan, etc... have anything to do with on the topic of math though? No matter how you look at it, it would require knowledge of that religion, and if it was a question that was required to be answered (as in the second case), it shouldn't be allowed.

Re: Religion in Education
 

maybe if you told us what the question actually was, we might better understand your concerns.

The US constitution says congress shall pass no laws regarding the establishment of religion

it does not say we shall have separation of church and state

and it does not say we shall have freedom from religion, as if religion were something to be shunned or avoided.

but some people would have us think that is the case.

The religious beliefs of the people in our nation and our world have a great deal to do with our history and culture. If you get upset everytime God or church or the bible is mentioned in school, maybe you need to figure out why its upsetting you?

If you have been led to believe that all references to religion or God are forbidden within the walls of public schools, you have been given incorrect information. If that is the way you thought it was suppose to be, then I would understand you being upset - thinking the teachers are breaking the rules

but from what you have told us so far, they are not breaking any rules.

Maybe you could be more specific if we are not seeing the whole picture.

BTW, when you said you didnt read the book, were you referring to C&P or the Bible?

Re: Religion in Education
 

Like Wetzel said, the Bible is the best-selling book. Most people have heard of or know the story of Adam & Eve. You don't need to believe the religion to understand what the book said. How is it any different than asking "Who is the most famous Shakespearean couple?"

Maybe you can ask your teacher to add books to the curriculum if you want some literature about different religions (I think that religions should be taught not preached in schools) (these are all for different grades and reading levels)
The Fountainhead (Atheism)
Night by Elie Wiesel (Judaism)
Nectar in a Sieve (Hinduism)
Ali and Nino (Islamic)

Re: Religion in Education
 

The question is just simply, do you think that religion should be brought into education (given the examples I gave).

Nowhere in the constitution does it contain anything relating to "seperation between church and state", correct. I've had this told to me over and over again...the seperation came with the establish and free exercise clauses.

I don't get upset everytime this happens...I get upset when there's only one side of the story.

Actually, I've been led to believe the opposite, but in my own view of education, religion should not be brought into discussion when it's not actually necessary because it is always a one-sided way of thinking, without any thought of other religions.

I was referring to C&P, the only way I did read it is by SparkNotes, and I didn't even read most of those. I've read a little bit of the bible, the rest I've learned through Christians.

Yes, the Christian Bible is the best-selling book. I don't think you need to believe the religion either, but to ask who was the first couple on Earth is a bit unfair in a way, because not every religion believes that A&E were. Demonology says that Adam & Lilith (sp?) were, until Lilith betrayed Adam (and more to it...).

Anyone can argue the most famous Shakespearean couple also...it all depends on what you want to believe.

If I had any hope of that being possible, I would. But for two reasons it wouldn't work:

1) It's AP English...and she only follows that cirriculum, and nothing else.
2) The school board has to approve the material (to the best of my knowledge), and the rest of the English department. And since everyone is Christian on the board, they wouldn't allow Atheism or Islamic books to be brought in (nothing against Christians, just the school board since they are like that). Also, I know for the Islamic book, it'll just get destroyed (my high school is very racist).

Re: Religion in Education
 

With all due respect to you involved, this is turning into an argument over who is right and who is wrong, rather than the open discussion it was intended to be.

It seems that a lot of the reasons aren't explained well, or maybe I just missed something. I agree with a few of you that religion is a part of history, but I have a fear that the change in curriculum would be misrespresented in our current school systems. I know for a fact that there are teachers I wouldn't want to learn about various religions from simply because of bias.

A new curriculum may include books that cite information about various faiths, but on the same track, how will it change understanding and tolerance and make the idea welcome? The truth with religion in public schools is that no matter which way you choose to represent religion, there will be a huge amount of dissent from any party.

In my opinion, it is changing that dissent into acceptance on the family's part that is important, but a school cannot just change a family. It's possible, but hardly feasible. While such changes in curriculum are the ideal, I have a feeling that RavenWriter, among others, are looking for a more immediate and usable solution to the issue of religious education.

Thanks,
Genia

Re: Religion in Education
 

Well, atleast someone else is trying to keep this on the right track...thanks.

Well, it is known for a fact that most historical events have happened because of history. I do agree that a change would be misrepresented, and that there are biased teachers when it comes to religion (my AP Gov. teacher is one). I think this is where the main problem lies.

Really, if you think about it, if you actually wanted to learn about another religion...it'd be wiser to do it on your own instead of through the school. The school will always try to please the majority (which is usually of Christian decent), so then that means that Athiests would have to sit through a class that they believe they shouldn't be in, but are required to in order to graduate (assuming it goes this way...don't make any remarks on this situation).

This pretty much sums up what I haven't been able to say honestly.

Please, in respect to this thread, lets stay on track and not turn this into a "I'm-right-your-wrong" thread as Genia pointed out. I think that this can be a very useful thread if the discussion is right.

Re: Religion in Education
 

You asked us to share our opinion if this is right. The only example you gave with any real information was about Crime and Punishment, so that was the one I addressed. As far as drawing comparisons between Satenism and Crime and Punishment, I'm rather interested in how Satenism has an impact upon the book.

I'll second Kens call for more information regarding the math question. I get asked questions all the time about subjects that I've only heard about in passing. Logging, tennis, invoices, and many other things. The point about them is that they merely serve to illustrate the use of a math concept. The same goes for my Biology classes, and my current teacher LOVES those types of questions.

It the question required an intimate knowledge of Genesis, then it is likely an unfair question. If it is just a vehicle for a concept, then no problem.

Do you think there are unbiased teachers when it comes to anything? By the very nature of individuality, each individual has an inherent and undeniable bias towards everything. Some people have large and obvious biases, others have theirs hidden, but everyone has them.


It is also my opinion that you should not entrust your personal growth and learning to anyone else. Learn in school, learn from others, but also learn on your own. Read varied sources on different things. Love to learn and you will go far.

Wetzel

Re: Religion in Education
 

I'm guessing that the "who's right" isn't going to end...I respect everyone's views on this, but lets just not try to change the views...

And in response to Wetzel:
I did ask to share your opinion, but the thread became a war basically between our own view points...which is what I didn't want to happen.

Satanism didn't have an impact on the book, and I never claimed it did...I just said there's ressemblences (sp?) between Satanism & C&P.

I cannot give any more information about the math problem, since I did not take the test or anything...it's just what my friend told me (I do remember the question very vaguely though...since I had that same class last year).

You probably aren't very strong in supporting a seperation between those and math, biology, or any other classes. I am, however, that way.

No, I don't think there's ever a completely unbiased teacher. And I agree with you, everyone is biased in some matter.

I entrust the growth of my knowledge to certain few...the rest I obtain on my own free will.

** If anyone wishes to continue this discussion anymore, please PM me...I really wish to keep this more on track and keep it's origional intentions **

Re: Religion in Education
 

Alright well honestly for starters I doubt any of us have the ability to change any sort of curriculum mid-class. On the practical point what would the teacher do even if she did want to stop? End class? Make up a new lesson plan on the spot? She probably got partly mad because that is an awfully difficult request. I also think personally that it is a bit tactless to argue something does not exist or is not a major part of book when you haven't read the book.

I am guessing...and I will freely admit the word guessing here...that the matches between the Satanic bible and Crime and Punishment can be attributed to the idea that the Satanic Bible probably has many references to the Christian Bible. Reactionary books have a lot in common with the things they react to. Sounds like a fascinating idea though...books/movies with Christian influences viewed through the Satanic Bible....*throws The Scarlet Letter, The Chronicles of Narnia, The Lord of The Rings, The Once and Future King and several other stacks of books in* If that was a class I would so take it.

For your math thing I do not quite understand how that got in there but really I do not understand an awful lot of that story. Skipping that to the computer class...I think it is probably unfair to name the rest of the class "ignorant" if the entire goal of this is a flameless friendly thoughtful conversation.

It would have been nice if it had said "in the Christian/Jewish/Islamic traditions" but I really think there is not much to argue against unless you wrote down "I believe in evolution" or two names according to another religion and your teacher marked it wrong. I think that freedom of religion allows people to write whatever they like in that space and just keeps a teacher from marking it as wrong...as a side note a rather dumb question or a freebie however you like to look at it. You do probably have to answer the question though according to your knowledge of the world...blank spaces are always blank spaces and I can't see how you could get credit for that. I have to ask how that came up in computer science class though.

Re: Religion in Education
 

What is it about people defending their conviction and religious beliefs that makes them ignorant? I'm just curious.

Re: Religion in Education: Cultural Literacy?
 

As you say, Adam/Eve is a "famous...incident." There is a concept called "cultural literacy," which suggests that there is a body of cultural knowledge that "everyone" in a given culture knows. Adam & Eve, Noah & The Flood, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount ("And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise") are all widely known portions of the Bible. They are NOT obscure, but appear frequently in art, literature, folk art, drama, and music, throughout centuries of Western culture.

Culture literacy also includes many of the popular sayings, such as "God helps those who help themselves" and "A penny saved is a penny earned" from Poor Richard's Almanac, numerous quotes from Shakespeare, Mother Goose nursery rhymes, fairy tales, songs, legends (George Washington and the cherry tree), etc.

All of these kinds of things used to permeate our society, and forever influenced the English language, but the persistent efforts of various radical people to expunge them from public schools and from TV shows have caused many people to be completely ignorant of them, or at least of the origin of many traditional sayings. Or else the sayings are parodied to such an extent that many people only know the wrong version (Bumper sticker: "Do unto others, then split"). In place of the old wisdom, our modern culture has substituted a fragmented collection of movie trivia, sports stats, and other junk that has nothing to do with shaping a person into someone who can make valuable, lasting contributions to society.

As a reaction, other people have published works such as "The Dictionary of Cultural Literacy" (not sure of exact title), and the "Wee Sing" children's tapes. The problem here is, who can say for certain what should be included in a list of what "culturally literate" people know? It's hardly an exact science!

Now, a teacher has to assume that the students know SOMETHING about the culture. And it's a common technique for textbooks to throw in all kinds of references to other fields, because the textbook writers are trying to make the subject interesting to students with varying interests. A math textbook will have problems about sports, music, animals, cars, etc. An English textbook may have examples from literature and articles relating to history, science, and art.

Why, then, is there so much pressure from a few people to completely eliminate religion as a topic fit for inclusion in the public schools? Why not ban references to art because some people are ignorant about it, or hate it? Why not ban math, because some students are no good at it, and hate it, and feel like their teacher has elevated it to the level of a religion? (Math was Mark Leon's "mantra" at the Sacramento Regional, for those of you who weren't there to see our fabulous MC. ;) )

On the lighter side, I have a story about the pitfalls of the "every schoolboy knows" assumption. This may shock some of you Detroit area people... :ahh:

A couple years ago, one of my son's textbooks put a question which I felt was unfair. I think the subject was math. The question presumed the student knew what the Big Three automakers are. Now, with all the new models coming out of Detroit every year, how is anyone supposed to remember what the Big Three are? Ford is one, of course--every schoolboy knows that--but is Chevrolet a label of Plymouth, or its own company? Is Buick one of the Big Three? Must be, 'cause my granddad always drove a Buick. I know American Motors got eaten up by another company--was it Jeep?--and AM used to make Ramblers (I know, because my family used to own one--now there's a topic that should be banned from classrooms, the way my dad hated that car!). And where can you look up this information? I'm afraid I wasn't much help to my son in this case.

I was so annoyed by this question that I complained to the publisher. :D

Re: Religion in Education
 

Eric,
I am encouraged that a student felt the need for a call to action. However, by attempting to stop the lesson, you may have missed the idea the teacher was trying to establish. This idea may have been flawed but you didn't give her a chance to establish the idea and then you would be in a better position to make up your own mind. In my experience, teachers (and people in general) feel a need to establish a line from a starting point to the point they are trying to make. It seems like Lit and religion teachers carried this to an extreme, in my mind. Unfortunately, Lit and religion are not sciences with proven facts and theorems so it is hard to establish right and wrong.
Although this has been a discussion of Christianity we must remember that the religion of Russia at the time this book was written was a hotly contested and individual struggle. Not only was the populace severely divided by class but each person struggled with the obvious inhumanity perpetrated by supposedly Christian people on the lower classes and non Christians. We also must remember that the Christianity of Russia is Orthodox and for centuries this sect was at odds with the Roman Catholic Church. This struggle resulted in millions of deaths over the centuries as people defended to the death, the right way to perform the Sign of the Cross. While Dostoevsky may have been talking of religion, you must remember that he was under scrutiny as was any writer of his time. While he struggled to do something he wanted to do, he walked a narrow line that might have got him jailed or worse. With that knowledge, the book may written with the ever present conflict of trying to say what he felt while trying staying alive.
As to your other examples, the facts are still a little too sketchy. I had a calc teacher who would give "are you here?" quizzes at his 8:00AM class. It didn't matter whether you knew what color George Washington's white horse was, as much as you were present to answer the question. The math teacher may have been trying to see who was aware of all of the questions and not trying to establish a religious link.
I feel I was lucky (blessed?!?) that my parents sent me to progressive parochial schools. One of my classes (in high school) was an investigation into the world's major religions. It is pretty interesting that they share many common ideas and stories. With a few twists and different characters, they have similar tales of Genesis, the great flood, etc. They also expound on the idea of love of neighbor. None of these beliefs preach anything about harsh treatment of the non-believers yet the major struggles and wars through the ages used religion as a basis for the initial attacks. Think of where the human race would be now had the religious leaders of those conflicts been more aware and tolerant of other religions and cultures.
FIRST is breaking down those cultural and religious boundaries. Can you imagine what will take place when Israeli and Muslim teams come together for a competition? A place where Gracious Professionalism is followed and there is a free exchange of ideas can only be good for the future of those students and mentors. I hope I can live to see a day when these fences fall.

Re: Religion in Education
 

Heh.... I found this article about robotics which oddly says the differnces in American robotics research and Japense robotics research is caused by the differnce in religions.
Robotics
Pssss... Wikipedia. It has Big Two,three, four, five and six.

Re: Religion in Education
 

something I have seen growing over the last several years, many people are talking about religious tolerance, when the rest of the conversation clearly shows what they really want is religious acceptance.

There are many commonalities between religions, on the most basic level everyone teaches we should be "good".

There are also many differences. There is a real trend lately for people to try to blend all the major religions together, and call this tolerance.

On the core level, you cannot accept the teachings of different relgions, because they are different. Tolerance means "I respect your decision to follow your personal beliefs". It does not mean I agree with your beliefs or accept them as valid. In other words, I respect your freedom to make a wrong choice (from my perspective).

To me, tolerance means both sides are allowed to state their beliefs, to explain what they believe and why, and the individuals are free to choose their own path. At some point you must respect the other persons choice, and treat them with respect and dignity.

That does not mean we must pretend the differences do not exist. It means we can peacefully co-exists, even if you think the other person has made an error in their thinking.

In the end we are all individually accountable for the decisions we have made. No one is going to be held responsible because someone else chose the wrong path.

Re: Religion in Education
 

Maybe I'm reading it differently, but the impression I got from that post was that the ignorance in question was the majority in the class either not listening to or not respecting her beliefs.

Re: Religion in Education
 

<rant>
In my own opinion, I believe that religion should be taught from a historical standpoint only. Humanity throughout the ages has relied on religion to explain anything that they couldn't. However, if one religion's beliefs and stories are taught for the history concepts, ALL religions' stories, concepts, and beliefs related to the subject must also be explained.
For example, to understand the conflicting views between certain Muslim extremists and Christianity (sorry for being so general, but the west, and America aren't the only oppositions to the extremists), a teacher would have to explain the concepts that the Crusades were based on. Not only from a Christian standpoint, but also the Muslim standpoint as well.
As for the AP English teacher, she did overreact, but from what I've read, most of the AP English test is on western literature. In my class, we've read a lot of different western texts, from The Odyssey to Inferno. Right now we're finishing up some work on James Joyce and moving into Crime and Punishment. The Christio-centric views of most of these writers are unavoidable, as in the middle ages and later, Europe's literature was written mainly by the educated people, and for the most part...those were people educated by the Church.
To cut it short, religion in any schooling is unavoidable. The way it is shown, however can be changed. If religion is to be taught about, it shouldn't be based on ONE religion, unless there are no other religions in question. If this is the case, (and in every other case) the material should be taught in the most objective way possible, from an open minded platform, with no religious biases in the explaination of stories (ex: telling someone that they are wrong for suggesting that Adam and Eve weren't the first humans, that homo habilis were, etc.).
</rant>
MHO.

<edit>
In years past, people were taught not to "tolerate" other religions and views, but to accept them. Tolerance is another word for absent minded acceptance.
The Nazi party in the 1930s was tolerated by the world community, and look what that lead to. No one would dare accept what they were doing, but no one would do anything about it because they were tolerating the actions for fear of a harsh repremand from the powerful German army.
Acceptance, however is a much more powerful weapon than tolerance. Acceptance is allowing people's views to be expressed in the fullest way possible.
Before anyone tries to misquote me about that, understand that when I say to allow the other person's view to be expressed, I'm not just talking about the religious view, I'm also talking about the counter to this view.
Think about what I've said.
</edit>

Re: Religion in Education
 

It would be easy to get lost here in the definition of the words 'tolerance' and 'acceptance'.

I only intended to point out that people often say one when they mean the other.

After the attacks on sept 11, the president and others went on national TV pleading for religious tolerance (by americans towards american muslims) and at the same time they repeatedly stated that Islam is a religion of peace.

If we are suppose to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs, then it doenst matter if their beliefs are peacefull, good, positive... From my way of looking at it, we tolerate people when we dont agree with them, when we are at odds with them

if there is no conflict or controversy, then tolerance is not required, because there is no issue there.

Im not sure I understand your example of WW2 and Germany. As soon as Germany invaded Poland, a full scale war was waged, most nations took sides and did everything they could to win the conflict.

And I dont think anyone knew what was really happening to the jewish people inside the borders controlled by Germany. Its not that anyone tolerated or accepted what they were doing, it was done in secret.

When american troops stumbled across the concentrations camps (my father was in Pattons 3rd army) they were in shock. They had no idea those things were going on until they started finding the camps.

going back to the topic of this thread, it seems like at least some of the examples given by RavenWriter, the student in the class would not tolerate religion even being discussed, or used in any context on test questions.